Stephen Hitchings' comments are STUPID and should be ignored - Vanity Fair (1999) Discussion

[–] lclaybaugh 20 years ago

Hmmm...I don't know... Having read both the book and seen the mini-series, I have to agree with Hitchings. Becky Sharp is a psychopath is the classic dictionary sense. She's reprehensible. Though a perfect anti-heroine.

reply

[–] agt44 20 years ago

A person with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy or remorse.

That's the exact dictionary definiton of a psychopath. I don't think any person that's read the book would call Becky Sharp antisocial. Therefore, she is not a psychopath.

Her being an anti-heroine depends on your definiton of heroine. If you mean the typical fairytale heroine, then yes, but Thackerey wasn't trying to write a fairytale, as he clearly states in the beginning of the book. Vanity Fair is a satire mocking the classic Victorian novel of virtue. Thackerey's goal is to portray the world as it really is. He means to illustrate that there is no clear black and white division in the world.

Look at any REAL literary analysis of Vanity Fair. Real meaning from a university professor and not sparknotes. None of them will contain the word psychopath. You might want to re-read the book.

reply

[–] tamannhan 20 years ago

Nicely put. It reminds me of the character of Moll Flanders. She was definitely the heroine but she was not virtuous. Yet her vice was in having to make the most of her situation. She had nothing but her looks. You know now that I think of it maybe Thackeray was copying Defoe's Moll. hmmm? Becky is not truly evil but she is used to looking out for herself. I confess I have probably too much pity for her. In the movie when she has to *not* eat that tripe and then get up and go hungry and then finally get fed on "mutton stew followed by mutton"; not the end of the world, but still a hardship. And to have to flirt with Jos and even Sir Pitt -that is tough! and I wouldn't want to be in that circumstance. The movie too makes her a little worse (everyone is a little MORE in it), she steals stuff quite a bit and seems even less decent than in the book.

About Vanity Fair. It is quite brilliant really. The parody of our silly existence and everyone's selfishness. The term vanity is used as it is in the Bible in Ecclesiates- meaning valueless and worthless and good for nothing, not just vanity as in pride and conceit. Everything in this world is IN VAIN, that is what Thackeray shows. Everyone is out for themselves and what good is it anyway- it is just vanity. But that is where the real hero Dobbin comes in; he shows what really matters in life , even though he is crapped on so much. Well that is my partial review -I have to go, but I hope it makes sense and is received well.

Marge: he prefers the company of men. Homer: who doesn't?

reply

[–] Josephine7 20 years ago

Is this mini-series ever shown on television? I don't think my local video store carries it and I would love to see it!

I'm about 1/3 of the way through the novel so I can't give it a full review but I am very much enjoying it right now!

Ummm...yeah, Becky is NOT a pschyopath. She is just a girl without any relations to look out for her so she must do what no one else will! I actually like the uncoventional heroine. She's selfish and is willing to do anything to elevate her position in society but I can't help but like her. I think it's sort of like with Scarlett O'Hara. She's a royal byotch but you love her anyway!

reply

[–] tamannhan 20 years ago

I first rented it at the library. I am a huge Pride and Prejudice fan but had never heard that a similar production of Vanity Fair was ever made. Now I own the DVD which really wasn't too expensive. Andrew Davies is my hero!

Marge: he prefers the company of men. Homer: who doesn't?

reply

[–] sgn852000-1 18 years ago

I am currently half way through the book and therefore am not in a position to draw any definite conclusions on Becky's character yet. Although from what I have read so far, she does not come across as a psychopath. I also thought that Becky's character somewhat resembled that of Scarlett O'Hara--opportunistic and street smart rather than a psychopath.

I have not seen the movie yet. One thing that I would like to know is whether there is background narrative in the movie. I thought that was central to Vanity fair. For example, in the book WMT goes beyond just narrating the actual story. He cites examples from his own experiences, sometimes addresses the reader directly, or draws on relevant references that are not the part of the story. How is this "narrative" handled in the movie?

reply

[–] megatosspot 18 years ago

The difference between what the characters are saying and what the camera shows does the trick nicely. Thackeray's moralising would sit a little heavy on top of action. The music soundtrack provides a running commentary. Natasha Little does longsuffering amiability with an undercurrent of malice very well.

reply

[–] agt44 20 years ago

I don't think a video rental store would have it, you'd have to find a really big Blockbuster or something. I know that Suncoast Video *a video store with things for purchase* carries the DVD set and so does the Tower Records in Cambridge, but your safest bet is to find it online. Netflix if you want to rent, or Amazon if you want to buy. Amazon will definitely have it.

reply

[–] Josephine7 20 years ago

Thanks guys!

I love Pride and Prejudice too, Pam! Ooo Colin! :)

reply

[–] George_O_Welles 18 years ago

some claim scarlett was based on becky sharp, but margaret mitchell denied
it

reply

[–] coolbluegreen 15 years ago

<<some claim scarlett was based on becky sharp, but margaret mitchell denied >>

Scarlett isn't as bad as Becky, although there are similaries. Scarlett is a better person. She cares for others in a quite literal sense -- she is responsible for EVERYONE at Tara, even those (Sue Ellen, for instance) whom she doesn't like. Without Scarlett's leadership, they would have starved.

Scarlett feels love -- Becky doesn't. Scarlett sacrficies herself to help not only herself, but her whole family. Stealing her sister's beau was not the best thing she ever did, but in doing so she saved Tara and everyone there.

She also kept her word to Ashley. I can't see Becky keeping her word to anyone.

Both women say Fiddle-dee-dee. Just thought I would point that out.

reply

[–] coolbluegreen 15 years ago

tamannhan wrote: <<Nicely put.>>

I disagree.

tamannhan wrote: <<It reminds me of the character of Moll Flanders. She was definitely the heroine but she was not virtuous.>>

Becky is more than "not virtuous." She is a murderer.

tamannhan wrote: <<Yet her vice was in having to make the most of her situation. She had nothing but her looks. You know now that I think of it maybe Thackeray was copying Defoe's Moll. hmmm? Becky is not truly evil but she is used to looking out for herself.>>

Since when is a murderer not truly evil? From the moment she flung the dictionary out the carriage window, a dictionary given her by a kind-hearted caring woman, it was easy to see that Becky is dreadful.

I think Moll is kinder than Becky and has a conscience. We see it again and again throughout the book. Trust me, Becky would have had no problem "lying with her brother," so long as that brother were rich. Moll can't do it. Becky would never given up the wealth that Moll does. Moll does do some bad things and is horrified to realize that she has the potential to be evil -- but she has a heart and she loves.

No, Becky IS truly evil. She is neglectful and abusive to her son. She ruins Raggles and his whole family. It is only by luck that Briggs is not ruined by her. She is cruel to Amelia for no reason.

tamannhan wrote: <<I confess I have probably too much pity for her.>>

Yeah, sociopaths will do that to you.

tamannhan wrote: <<In the movie when she has to *not* eat that tripe and then get up and go hungry and then finally get fed on "mutton stew followed by mutton"; not the end of the world, but still a hardship. And to have to flirt with Jos and even Sir Pitt -that is tough! and I wouldn't want to be in that circumstance. The movie too makes her a little worse (everyone is a little MORE in it), she steals stuff quite a bit and seems even less decent than in the book.>>

What are you talking about? She commits murder in the book. She abuses and neglects her son in the book. She ruins innocent people's lives in the book.

tamannhan wrote: <<About Vanity Fair. It is quite brilliant really.>>

We agree on that.

tamannhan wrote: <<The parody of our silly existence and everyone's selfishness. The term vanity is used as it is in the Bible in Ecclesiates- meaning valueless and worthless and good for nothing, not just vanity as in pride and conceit. Everything in this world is IN VAIN, that is what Thackeray shows. Everyone is out for themselves and what good is it anyway- it is just vanity. But that is where the real hero Dobbin comes in; he shows what really matters in life , even though he is crapped on so much. Well that is my partial review -I have to go, but I hope it makes sense and is received well.>>

I think you have fallen victim to that sociopath, Becky. Don't feel bad about it. Many people fall for sociopaths. But you really need to re-read the book and reconsider your opinion of Becky.

reply

[–] 15 years ago

[deleted]

[–] coolbluegreen 12 years ago

agt44 wrote: <<A person with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy orremorse.>>

Becky is aggressive (particularly by the standards of her day. And argument can be made for her being perverted. She is DEFINITELY criminal and amoral and without remorse. So far, you are building a strong argument for diagnosing Becky as a sociopath. In case you have forgotten -- her behavior towards Raggles and Miss Briggs, for example, is criminal. She steals their money and utterly ruins Raggles. He winds up imprisoned as a bankrupt. It doesn't bother her one bit. Her son cries bitterly because she doesn't love him and she doesn't care -- no empathy at all. Becky most likely murdered Jos Sedley -- that's about as amoral as it gets.

agt44 wrote: <<That's the exact dictionary definiton of a psychopath. I don't think any person that's read the book would call Becky Sharp antisocial. Therefore, she is not a psychopath.>>

And here you totally confuse me. You have told us what a psychopath is. Because of certain differences (mostly in behavior) I would call Becky a sociopath. BOTH psychopaths and sociopaths have an anti-social personality disorder. Psychopaths are more erratic; sociopaths are more controlled. Sociopaths appear more normal -- psychopaths are easier to "spot" as crazy. Both are remorseless and completely dangerous. What I do not understand is how you can list the ways Becky is a sociopath and then say she isn't. I think the word "antisocial is throwing you off. You are misunderstanding the way it's used. It's used to describe someone who behaves in ways that hurt society. A sociopath may be charming and attractive, but he or she is doing things that hurt people. If he or she is skilled, it will take a while to notice. Anyway, using this definition, ANYONE who has read the book (as I have, many times) would call Becky anti-social. Therefore, she is not a psychopath.>>

Wow. Your "therefore," your "proof that Becky is not a psychopath is (according to your sentence-structure) that no one who has read the book would call her anti-social. Of course, you don't understand what the term "anti-social" means int his context.

agt44 wrote: <<Her being an anti-heroine depends on your definiton of heroine.>>

Well, you tend to define things any old way you like.

snip

agt44 wrote: <<Look at any REAL literary analysis of Vanity Fair. Real meaning from a university professor and not sparknotes. None of them will contain the word psychopath. You might want to re-read the book.>>

Actually, a quick google search of Thackeray's Vanity Fair will show you that the words "psychopath and sociopath" are used to describe Becky Sharp and other aspects of the novel pretty frequently in everything from legitimate lit crit to Spark Notes. It's not exactly a new idea.

reply

[–] mistedjule 19 years ago

I wouldn't say she is a psychopath, I would say she is a sociopath.

Mischief managed
I am not young enough to know everything.

reply

[–] shaunssm 19 years ago

I agree with Stephen Hitchings that Becky Sharpe is a sociopath or psychopath (although sociopath is probably the most relevant one here). She was definitely not a heroine or even heroine with flaws. She cared nothing for her son, while some of the most selfish people in the world would care at least for their own children. She used her charm and beauty to manipulate all and sundry.
I copied the following from http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/psychopath.html about some of the Characteristics of a Psychopath/sociopath. Next to them I'll write Y for when Becky clearly fits those characteristics.

Glibness/superficial charm. (Y)
Grandiose sense of self-worth. (Y)
Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom. (Y)
Pathological lying. (Y)
Conning/manipulative. (Y)
Lack of remorse or guilt. (Y)
Shallow affect (not sure)
Callous/lack of empathy (mostly, but there were exceptions - her friendship with Amelia)
Parasitic lifestyle (Y)
Poor behavioral controls (N)
Promiscuous sexual behavior (not sure - she was willing to satisfy Lord Steyn)
Early behavior problems (N)
Lack of realistic, long-term plans (Y- in the beginning she was wooing her first oppurtunity, Josh Sedley, and always grabbed any oppurtunity that came by with all her plans falling apart as she owed too much to Lord Steyn)
Impulsivity (Sort-of)
Irresponsibility (Y)
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions (Y)
Many short-term marital relationships (well, many relationships at least)
Juvenile delinquency (what does that mean?)
Revocation of conditional release
Criminal versatility (Hare, 1986)
(Narcissism also a characteristic)

"It must be remembered that even the most severely and obviously disabled psychopath presents a technical appearance of sanity, often with high intellectual capacities and not infrequently succeeds in business or professional activities for short periods, some for considerable periods .Although they occasionally appear on casual inspection as successful members of the community, as able lawyers, executive or physicians, they do not, it seems, succeed in the sense of finding satisfaction of fulfillment in their own accomplishments. Nor do they, when the full story is known, appear to find this in an ordinary activity."

--H.Cleckley, "The Mask of Sanity"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Psychiatrists are often helplessly manipulated by the psychopath; just as are the psychopaths other victims."

--Dr. Ken Magid, "High Risk, Children Without a Conscience."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"There are psychopathic personalities in the highest echelons of government, and even within religious hierarchies in America. You can't just assume that a person with the title judge or hospital orderly got there honestly and won't manipulate the hell out of you."

--Personal communication from Psychologist Schreibman to H. Cleckley, 2/10/86

reply

[–] shaunssm 19 years ago

Oh, forgot to tick off criminal versatility. She occasionally stole jewelry - even from the house of her friend, Amelia.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that Becky was definitely not a flawed heroine. She was the perfect specimen of a manipulative, if you excuse my French, bitch. (don't take offense, but there is no lesser word to describe her sociapathic tendencies).

reply

[–] raiderchick 18 years ago

I must say I am stunned to be the subject of a Message Board - never happened to me before, probably never will again - though it is embarrassing that I have taken over 2 years to notice it.

I must congratulate shaunssm on a brilliant analysis of the psychopathic characteristics of Becky Sharp as portrayed in the series. I see that no one has even attempted to answer it. It is hardly necessary to add anything, except to say that I'm sure she would have had early behaviour problems but we just don't know about them. I have read one book on psychopaths, by a psychologist specialising in treating them (Without Conscience, by Robert D.Hare) though he does not claim any real success in their treatment. He says that the overriding characteristic of psychopaths is lack of conscience - something which seems to define Becky Sharp perfectly. He also claims that psychopaths are very common, and that the movies have given us a very false idea about them by making us think they are all serial killers - which is basically the point I was trying to make in my review.

I admire agt44's passion for Vanity Fair, which is indeed a great book. His comments about Thackeray's intentions are probably true, though I don't see why he feels the need to make them into a personal attack on me, but he has completely missed the point, because he is talking about the book, and I only claimed that the mini-series presents Becky Sharp as a psychopath. Unfortunately it is 22 years since I read the book, and without re-reading it (something that would be great to do, if I ever get through all the other books I am trying to find time to read) I am in no position to provide an intelligent comment on it - which is why I never attempted to do so.

reply

[–] mikbyr 18 years ago

Becky certainly behaves like an opportunist and a narcissist. Wouls you want a friend like Becky? Would you allow such a person into your home if you knew her personal history? People argue that she just does what she has to in order to survive. But she is not just using some underhanded methods in desperation to avoid starving. She is trying to get rich.

reply

[–] Locoloko 18 years ago

Having just watched the first episode of the mini-series i dont think it is that much of a stretch calling our "heroine" a psychopath.

I dont think it is much of a stretch either calling agt44 one of the all to many condescending snobs, who populate these boards only to humiliate the opinion of others.

reply

[–] mentoringme 18 years ago

That comment really upset me.

Becky Sharp is NOT and I repeat NOT a psychopath. She is a capitalist. Sheesh.

And what is so wrong with capitalism? Any takers?

WMT had some ideas about it.

[update] I just watched the mini-series again yesterday, and I can see how someone superficially might diagnose Becky Sharp as a psychopath. However, I don't think she fits the definition as others have remarked above, nor do I think it was Thackeray's intention to portray an insane woman. There were many social forces at work in Becky's situation, and she did what she felt she needed to do in order to survive. Her biggest flaw was that she lacked a conscience, and could rationalize any kind of behavior no matter how destructive to others, as long as she could gain her own ends. If I had to diagnose her, I would say that she is extremely narcissistic.

I think Thackeray meant to comment just as much on all the people who were her dupes. They were all blinded by their own vanity, hence Vanity Fair.

reply

[–] Locoloko 18 years ago

...nor do I think it was Thackeray's intention to portray an insane woman

Strictly speaking a psychopath is not (necessarily) insane.

...she lacked a conscience, and could rationalize any kind of behavior no matter how destructive to others, as long as she could gain her own ends......I would say that she is extremely narcissistic

And I would say that even though you write that "Becky Sharp is NOT a psychopath", that's pretty much the definition right there.

reply

[–] mentoringme 18 years ago

I'm sorry, am I debating someone who had a degree in psychiatry?

No, narcissists are not psychopaths. Nacissicism is classed as a personality disorder, and every human on the face of the earth has some degree of narcissicism.

Malignant narcissists are psychopaths. And... Yes, psychopaths are insane (i.e. psychopathic...)

reply

[–] Locoloko 18 years ago

So as i understand it, the dividing line for you in the case of Becky Sharp is malignant intent. Okay lets say i go along with your destinction.
That still does not change the fact that what you initially wrote, in my book fit the description of a psychopath, even though the whole point of your post was that she is NOT.
And btw. - no there is nothing wrong with being a capitalist, just as there is nothing wrong with being a driver, unless you drink a bottle of gin and joyride at 150 KM/h in the inner city (in other words: i'm sorry but i fail to see the relevance).

So are psychopaths insane?
Well not in the eyes of the law, or quite a few people would have avoided prison (or worse).
English is a foreign language to me so maybe my use of the word is inappropriate or a bit off.
I subscribe to the pretty common usage, that an insane person is someone whose perception of reality differs significantly from that of the average person.

PS: No - no degree in psychiatry (evident from the above i reckon).

reply

[–] coolbluegreen 15 years ago

mythmother wrote: <<I'm sorry, am I debating someone who had a degree in psychiatry? >>

Do you? Do you need a degree in psychiatry to realize that someone who does the things Becky does is a sociopath? No, you don't.

reply

[–] coolbluegreen 12 years ago

mentoringme wrote: <<I'm sorry, am I debating someone who had a degree in psychiatry?>>

Well, no one talking to you is debating someone with a degree in psychology, that's for sure!

mentoringme wrote: <<No, narcissists are not psychopaths.>>

Not necessarily. A psychopath could have narcissistic behaviors and beliefs. MANY sociopaths have narcissistic tendencies.

mentoringme wrote: <<Nacissicism is classed as a personality disorder, and every human on the face of the earth has some degree of narcissicism.>>

So, you are saying all human beings have personality disorders?

mentoringme wrote: <<Malignant narcissists are psychopaths. And... Yes, psychopaths are insane (i.e. psychopathic...) >>

Oh, boy. What is your point?

reply

[–] ArianwenPendragon 11 years ago

Sorry to join the party late, but I just couldn't let this one go.

mentoringme wrote: <<I'm sorry, am I debating someone who had a degree in psychiatry?>>

You weren't before, but now you've got someone in grad school for clinical psychology. Does that meet your criteria?

mentoringme wrote: <<Nacissicism is classed as a personality disorder, and every human on the face of the earth has some degree of narcissicism.>>

Try again. Narcissism is VERY different from Narcissistic Personality Disorder, so while you may well be right that everyone has some degree of narcissism, NPD is a whole new level of it. Yes, the vast majority of sociopaths would have an additional diagnosis of NPD, but having NPD or even just narcissism alone doesn't make someone a sociopath or psychopath. It also requires Antisocial Personality Disorder, which I'll discuss more below.

mentoringme wrote: <<Malignant narcissists are psychopaths. And... Yes, psychopaths are insane (i.e. psychopathic...) >>

Nope, wrong again! The term 'insanity' is a legal term and refers only to the ability or lack thereof to distinguish right and wrong. There IS no 'sane or insane' diagnosis in the DSM-IV, it's not a clinical term, and doesn't apply if we're looking at the sheer psychological perspective. Sociopaths are very well aware of that difference between right and wrong and just choose to disregard it, which means they fit that definition of sanity. Sociopaths and psychopaths are NOT the same thing and I think that's where a lot of the confusion has been coming from. Sociopaths are people with Antisocial Personality Disorder (as are psychopaths, but there are other criteria for separating the two), but 'antisocial' doesn't apply in the 'normal' definition of it as people who don't like being around other people. The vast majority of sociopaths are highly social individuals who one would never label as having anything 'wrong' with them, let alone being defined as 'insane'. Other posters have listed the diagnostic criteria for ASPD and explained exactly how Becky Sharp meets almost all of it, so I won't repeat that here. You can even go straight to the DSM-IV and see for yourself that she fits more than the required number of characteristics for the diagnosis, so for those of you who insist she's not a sociopath, how do you explain such a thorough match to the diagnostic criteria?

Also, to the poster who said Becky wasn't a sociopath but a capitalist, are you kidding me? An opportunist, absolutely. A sociopath, according to the diagnostic criteria, you bet! A capitalist, maybe, but you can't substitute capitalist for sociopath and have it explain everything she does and her almost-total lack of remorse or compassion. I'm sorry the assertion that Becky Sharp is a sociopath upsets you, but I don't see why you take it so personally. Sociopaths are largely created by their environment rather than born a certain way, so one could argue that to a large extent, it's not their fault even if what they choose to do with it IS their fault. I actually like her in a messed-up way, the same way I like Moll Flanders and Scarlett O'Hara (who I wouldn't consider sociopaths), but I can see the character for what she is and would agree 110% from a clinical perspective that she's a sociopath.

reply

[–] coolbluegreen 11 years ago

ArianwenPendragron wrote: <<Sorry to join the party late, but I just couldn't let this one go.>>

Baby, you ain't late. You're right on time!

mentoringme wrote: <<I'm sorry, am I debating someone who had a degree in psychiatry?>>

ArianwenPendragron wrote: <<You weren't before, but now you've got someone in grad school for clinical psychology. Does that meet your criteria?>>

Oh,I just LIVE for moments like this! I LOVE you. mentoringme wrote: <<Nacissicism is classed as a personality disorder, and every human on the face of the earth has some degree of narcissicism.>>

ArianwenPendragron wrote: <<Try again. Narcissism is VERY different from Narcissistic Personality Disorder, so while you may well be right that everyone has some degree of narcissism, NPD is a whole new level of it. Yes, the vast majority of sociopaths would have an additional diagnosis of NPD, but having NPD or even just narcissism alone doesn't make someone a sociopath or psychopath. It also requires Antisocial Personality Disorder, which I'll discuss more below.>>

mentoringme wrote: <<Malignant narcissists are psychopaths. And... Yes, psychopaths are insane (i.e. psychopathic...) >>

ArianwenPendragron wrote: <<Nope, wrong again! The term 'insanity' is a legal term and refers only to the ability or lack thereof to distinguish right and wrong. There IS no 'sane or insane' diagnosis in the DSM-IV, it's not a clinical term, and doesn't apply if we're looking at the sheer psychological perspective. Sociopaths are very well aware of that difference between right and wrong and just choose to disregard it, which means they fit that definition of sanity. Sociopaths and psychopaths are NOT the same thing and I think that's where a lot of the confusion has been coming from. Sociopaths are people with Antisocial Personality Disorder (as are psychopaths, but there are other criteria for separating the two), but 'antisocial' doesn't apply in the 'normal' definition of it as people who don't like being around other people. The vast majority of sociopaths are highly social individuals who one would never label as having anything 'wrong' with them, let alone being defined as 'insane'. Other posters have listed the diagnostic criteria for ASPD and explained exactly how Becky Sharp meets almost all of it, so I won't repeat that here. You can even go straight to the DSM-IV and see for yourself that she fits more than the required number of characteristics for the diagnosis, so for those of you who insist she's not a sociopath, how do you explain such a thorough match to the diagnostic criteria?

Also, to the poster who said Becky wasn't a sociopath but a capitalist, are you kidding me? An opportunist, absolutely. A sociopath, according to the diagnostic criteria, you bet! A capitalist, maybe, but you can't substitute capitalist for sociopath and have it explain everything she does and her almost-total lack of remorse or compassion. I'm sorry the assertion that Becky Sharp is a sociopath upsets you, but I don't see why you take it so personally. Sociopaths are largely created by their environment rather than born a certain way, so one could argue that to a large extent, it's not their fault even if what they choose to do with it IS their fault. I actually like her in a messed-up way, the same way I like Moll Flanders and Scarlett O'Hara (who I wouldn't consider sociopaths), but I can see the character for what she is and would agree 110% from a clinical perspective that she's a sociopath.>>

Everyone likes Becky Sharp. I mean, sociopaths are GENIUSES at making people like them. Thackeray knew what he was doing. I love Moll Flanders, who I do not believe is a sociopath (if she were, she'd have kept on doing her brother) although she has certain tendencies, but she is often kind-hearted. As for Scarlett, she cares for others too much. Her famous quote about never going hungry again shows that -- she says, "As G-d is my witness, as G-d is my witness they're not going to lick me. I'm going to live through this and when it's all over, I'll never be hungry again. No, NOR ANY OF MY FOLK. If I have to lie, steal, cheat or kill. As G-d is my witness, I'll never be hungry again!" And she does lie, steal, cheat, and kill -- BUT SHE HAS TO. That puts a different spin on things. Sociopaths do that when it's not necessary. Scarlett does not. And although she is a cold parent (shocking at 16!) and has certain tendencies on the spectrum, she does love, so, no, she's not Becky. Although she's based on her. Clearly.

reply

[–] coolbluegreen 15 years ago

mythmother wrote:

<<That comment really upset me.

Becky Sharp is NOT and I repeat NOT a psychopath. She is a capitalist. Sheesh.>>

No, she's a sociopath. She abuses and neglects her son. Last time I checked, that wasn't a part of capitalism.

mythmother wrote: <<And what is so wrong with capitalism? Any takers?>>

I have no problem with capitalism. I have a problem with a person who abuses and neglects her child, ruins people's lives, tortures her friends, cheats on her husband, and commits murder.

mythmother wrote: <<WMT had some ideas about it.

[update] I just watched the mini-series again yesterday, and I can see how someone superficially might diagnose Becky Sharp as a psychopath.>>

Try reading the book.

mythmother wrote: <<However, I don't think she fits the definition as others have remarked above, nor do I think it was Thackeray's intention to portray an insane woman.>>

Becky's not insane. She's a sociopath. Just look at what she does.

mythmother wrote: <<There were many social forces at work in Becky's situation, and she did what she felt she needed to do in order to survive.>>

She didn't need to ruin Raggles to survive. She didn't need to abuse her son to survive. She didn't need to murder poor Jos to survive. But she did.

mythmother wrote: <<Her biggest flaw was that she lacked a conscience,>>

Yeah, that's what sociopaths lack.

mythmother wrote: <<and could rationalize any kind of behavior no matter how destructive to others, as long as she could gain her own ends. If I had to diagnose her, I would say that she is extremely narcissistic.>>

Yeah, she is a narcissistic sociopath.

reply

[–] coolbluegreen 12 years ago

mentoringme wrote: <<That comment really upset me.

Becky Sharp is NOT and I repeat NOT a psychopath. She is a capitalist. Sheesh.>>

Are you kidding? Can you define either psychopath or capitalist? Beck is a sociopath.

mentoringme wrote: <<And what is so wrong with capitalism? Any takers...nor do I think it was Thackeray's intention to portray an insane woman."

You need a dictionary. You are not using terms like "insane" or "capitalist" or "psychopath" correctly.

snip

mentoringme wrote: <<Her biggest flaw was that she lacked a conscience,>>

Yeah -- her lacking a conscience is what could make her a psychopath (or a sociopath -- and she is a sociopath).

mentoringme wrote: <<could rationalize any kind of behavior no matter how destructive to others, as long as she could gain her own ends. If I had to diagnose her, I would say that she is extremely narcissistic.>>

Yeah -- she is a narcissistic sociopath. You basically just attempted to define her as a capitalist by using the guidelines used to define psychopaths or sociopaths. That is just -- weird. You say she is not a psychopath, then you basically prove that she is a sociopath

mentoringme wrote: <<I think Thackeray meant to comment just as much on all the people who were her dupes. They were all blinded by their own vanity, hence Vanity Fair. >> Thackeray definitely meant to comment on society as a whole. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out -- nor does it mean that Beck is not a sociopath. However, not all characters are blinded by vanity. Dobbin isn't. Miss Briggs isn't. Lady Jane Sheepshanks isn't. Their blindness does not come from vanity and they are kind,empathetic people.

reply

[–] Jes' Sayin' (5947) 2 years ago

Actually Vanity Fair was a reference to a place mentioned in Pilgrim's Progress by Bunyan. That's the reason for the name. In other words, the author is saying the world is inhabited by all manner of vain people.

reply

[–] sonikbaby2000 17 years ago

Alot of people have a warped understanding of psycopath. The word has so much stigma with serial killers and hannibal lectors..

There ARE alot of psycopaths out there and Becky Sharp does fit it.

Not all psycopaths are killers and insane...

Thay can be unfeeling and selfish..

reply

[–] emo_ville2002 17 years ago

Another vote for SOCIOPATH, not psychopath! lol

Haven't any of you even been around people who might have stabbed you in the back for your job, your boyfriend or girlfriend, your husband or wife?? They basically want what you have.

The world is chock full of people like Becky Sharp. They want everything others have and they don't usually go about getting it the proper way. They take the easiest and most devious path to get things.

The ‘Becky Sharps’ of the world are always conniving people who are also usually compulsive liars and YES, they are.....sociopaths.

They want it all and then some....by ANY means necessary.

A more modern version of this tale is “All About Eve”.

The message is always the same: “Trust No One!” ;)

reply

[–] coolbluegreen 15 years ago

Becky commits murder. She murders Jos. Now, that was always one part of the book I found hard to swallow. I think Thackeray went too far with that.

However, even without the murder, Becky is a classic sociopath. She is absolutely charming and utterly heartless. She has no problem ruining people she professes to care for. Briggs would have been ruined were it not for a timely offer from Lord Steyne. Raggles and his whole family are ruined because of Becky. His children wind up homeless and he winds up in debtor's prison because of her.

She hates her own son. She is cruel to her supposed best friend, Amelia. She thinks of no one but herself, cares for no one but herself.

reply

[–] kprp 15 years ago

Becky Sharpe is an opportunist, a social climber. That in itself was bad enough in that genteel society.

Stop looking at her through the lense of contemporary psycho-babble. Stop it I say! :) Socio and psyho paths--that's not what Thackeray meant. I can speak with authority on that because I am channeling him today. :)

Seriously, Becky Sharpe recognized the kindness of her husband Rawley and she was notunkind to him. Well, directly, anyway. And in the end she did something kind for Amelia. These are not the actions of a sociaopath.

Becky was self promoting and self-serving, but not to the point of mental illness.

reply