Dobbin - Vanity Fair (1999) Discussion

[–] nwilcu01 16 years ago

I feel the opposite. Dobbin to me was just like Amelia and George. Those three deserve each other.

He was like Amelia because he was in love with someone who did not/could not love them in return and found out only to late.

I thought he interfered in matters that he should not have. He should not have persuaded George to marry Amelia. He couldn't see that she would be very unhappy because George did not love her. She would have been happy for a time but in the long run she would be heart broken. He knew George did not love her. I know he did this for her sake but she would have been better off letting George go and maybe after time she would have loved Dobbin. I found him very irritating that he interfered with George and his father. I felt he overstepped his bonds on that score.

I am not a fan of Amelia either. She treated Dobbin just like George treated her. She knew that Dobbin lover her and she strung him along. And when she finally did marry him she was hurt because he loved their daughter more. She doesn’t deserve his love. She has spent it.

Don’t get me wrong. I love the story and find other people even more despicable than these three. It actually took me a few re-reads before I realized that Dobbin was not the great man I thought he was. I was very disappointed when if finally dawned on me that he has faults to.

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[–] coolbluegreen 15 years ago

nwilcu01 wrote: <<I feel the opposite. Dobbin to me was just like Amelia and George. Those three deserve each other.>>

Man, you are HARSH.

nwilcu01 wrote: <<He was like Amelia because he was in love with someone who did not/could not love them in return and found out only to late.>>

No, Amelia does ultimately love Dobbin. Have you read the book?

nwilcu01 wrote: <<I thought he interfered in matters that he should not have.>>

He was only trying to do what he thought was right for someone he loved. Very few characters in that book -- or in life -- can say that. That is a beautiful motivation. You are correct -- his decisions were not always the best, but his actions were pure and selfless.

nwilcu01 wrote: <<He should not have persuaded George to marry Amelia.>>

If you read the book, you will see that Dobbin thought Amelia would literally die without George. He was fighting for her life.

nwilcu01 wrote: <<He couldn't see that she would be very unhappy because George did not love her.>>

Do you demand this kind of foresight and perception from everyone you know? His kind heart and willingness to sacrifice his happiness for the one he loved are noble qualities, imo.

nwilcu01 wrote: <<She would have been happy for a time but in the long run she would be heart broken.>>

You are right. She was happy for a very short time and George was worthless, but Dobbin didn't know this, couldn't see this, and was trying to save Amelia's life.

nwilcu01 wrote: <<He knew George did not love her.>>

I think he was so in love with her himself he couldn't understand George not loving her. In fact, George TELLS Dobbin that he (George) "loves Amelia more every day." Read the book.

nwilcu01 wrote: <<I know he did this for her sake but she would have been better off letting George go and maybe after time she would have loved Dobbin. I found him very irritating that he interfered with George and his father. I felt he overstepped his bonds on that score.>>

Maybe he did. Again, he is one of the few characters in the book who actively tries to do help another human being.

nwilcu01 wrote: <<I am not a fan of Amelia either. She treated Dobbin just like George treated her.>>

No, she didn't. She took Dobbin for granted, but she cared for him. Her worship of the worthless George prevented her from seeing that she loved Dobbin. George, on the other hand, was brutal to Amelia. He as good as cheated on her with her supposed best friend, Becky (and others), asking Becky to run away with him! Amelia never did anything like that to Dobbin. All she did was take a long time to realize that she loved him. She was being faithful to George's memory.

nwilcu01 wrote: <<She knew that Dobbin lover her and she strung him along.>>

You really haven't read the book, have you? She didn't SEE him for over ten years. He was in India, she in England. She absolutely did not string him along. She told him quite clearly that she intended to remain faithful to George all her life.

nwilcu01 wrote: <<And when she finally did marry him she was hurt because he loved their daughter more. She doesn't deserve his love. She has spent it.>>

Oh, good lord. That is ONE LINE in the book. She says to herself that Dobbin is fonder of his daughter than anything, "even of me" with a sigh. The narrator then says that there was never a wish of Amelia's that Dobbin did not try to gratify.

nwilcu01 wrote: <<Don't get me wrong. I love the story>>

Did you read it?

nwilcu01 wrote: <<and find other people even more despicable than these three.>>

The idea that you could find either Amelia or Dobbin remotely despicable is unbelievable to me. You have some strange standards. Amelia and Dobbin are good, kind human beings -- flawed like all of us, but in no way despicable.

nwilcu01 wrote: <<It actually took me a few re-reads>>

Read it again.

nwilcu01 wrote: <<before I realized that Dobbin was not the great man I thought he was. I was very disappointed when if finally dawned on me that he has faults to.>>

Everyone has faults. Are you looking for a human without fault? I've got news for you -- everyone has them, even the very best people. Dobbin and Amelia were good people, far better than Becky or Lord Steyne or Miss Crawley. They were despicable. Dobbin and Amelia? They were good people with the kind of flaws that people can have and still be good.

If it weren't for Dobbin's generosity (for which he never received credit), Amelia would have been penniless. It was his money, not George's, that gave her her small portion. He pretended it was George's money. It was he who nursed her through her wild grief after George's death. It was he who convinced Joss to take care of his family. Was he perfect? No. Would we all be lucky to have someone in our lives who cared about us that much? Yes.

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[–] peggygeordie 12 years ago

Cololblue green, I just watched this last night and loved your counter-arguments to the idea that Dobbin is less than he should have been. He was kind, selfless, deluded only that he assumed that at heart other people's natures were as good as his own - and as you say, he could not conceive that anyone could not love Amelia, having known her. It would not be in him to understand what a rotter George could be or how miserable he would make Amelia.

And also, I agree with what one reviewer said - "Philip Glenister, as Dobbin, manages the difficult trick of making goodness not just interesting but charismatic."

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[–] coolbluegreen 12 years ago

Thank you, peggygeordie.

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[–] Flippitygibbit 16 years ago

I did, but then I always cheer him on, in the book and in the 2004 film version! One of the very first scenes with Dobbin, when he is sat alone at Vauxhall, waiting for the others to join him, is painful to watch - embarassment, loneliness and crushed hopes are plain upon Philip Glenister's face, and I love the little detail of straightening the knives and forks on the table. I love Dobbin, Amelia doesn't deserve him.

"Tony, if you talk that rubbish, I shall be forced to punch your head" - Lord Tony's Wife, Orczy

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[–] Roar_Girl 16 years ago

I adore Dobbin.

Honestly, who cares about the whole "dashing hero" thing.
Then again, Dobbin sort of is one, isn't he?

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[–] brilliantholmes 14 years ago

I fell for Dobbin as well. And I was totally cheering him on when he finally grew some balls and told off Amelia. What a sweet character

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[–] 14 years ago

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[–] peggygeordie 12 years ago

I loved that speech so much I went back and copied it down - it's brilliant and delivered with such quiet passion by Philip Glenister. "I think I knew all along that the prize I'd set my life on wasn't worth the winning. I was a fool, bartering all my truth and ardor against your feeble remnant of love...." And then his "I went once before and came back. I've spent enough of my life at this play." Great exit line... and you truly believe he has exhausted his love, that he knows "it wasn't worth the winning."

And meanwhile, Amelia just takes to her bed and cries and does nothing, until Becky gives her even MORE evidence that she's been a fool, and then FINALLY Dobbin is good enough for her. And sweetly as he kisses her, you have to wonder - is it indeed now going to be her "parasite" vine clinging to his solid oak, WITH HIS FULL UNDERSTANDING that he will marry her now, not out of ardor, but pity and compassion?

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[–] randommovies2002 12 years ago

he will marry her now, not out of ardor, but pity and compassion

and duty.

Amelia has always known that Dobbin loved her, and Dobbin knows that. Once she writes to him, he feels honor-bound to marry her because he had previously loved her and had always wanted to marry her (and knew she knew it). He married her out of duty.

In chapter 67 the narrator refers to Amelia as a parasite: Grow green again, tender little parasite, round the rugged old oak to which you cling!
http://classiclit.about.com/library/bl-etexts/wthackeray/bl-wthackeray -vanity-67.htm

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[–] Kuroel 14 years ago

I’ve seen the 2004 US version of Vanity Fair and the character I utterly fell in love with was Dobbin. Majorly due to Rhys Ifans’ depiction of the character even though Dobbin’s character is also wonderfully written. Ifans captures such wonderfully composed emotion into his acting and manages to bring out great profoundness in his character even though he is just in a supporting role. I was especially impressed by the scene that did not make to the actual movie.

SPOILERS

The cut scene is where we see Dobbin returning to his apartment to pack. He is clearly devastated by Amelia's answer; he breaks down and unleashes all the harboured sadness and anger he has refrained from expressing. He madly trashes his belongings and blindly throws items all over the place.

Finally he stops in front of a mirror, panting and looking so vulnerable and lonely while watching his broken reflection.

/SPOILERS

On an entirely different notion, I began watching Life on Mars when it first aired here in Finland April 2008. Philip Glenister as Gene Hunt swept me away. He’s such a heartthrob.

You can’t imagine my immeasurable delight when I discovered that he portrays William Dobbin in the UK version of Vanity Fair. Two of my favourite treats in one package!

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[–] randommovies2002 14 years ago

Check out Glenister's performance in Byron, as Byron's long-suffering manservant. Heart wrenching performance by Glenister.

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[–] peggygeordie 12 years ago

I have, and I agree. The scene where he parts from his wife.... His face is hidden by her bonnet as they kiss, and you can see it all in the flexing of his fingers around her hand. And then polishing her miniature as the years pass.... I think his performance is the only thing I will remember from that film!

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[–] winles 13 years ago

Just to add a small footnote(and I apologise if anyone has posted this before).
In the UK "Dobbin" is a name that is invariably applied to a working farm horse.The sort of horse that will go on slowly and thorougly even if you abuse him,and never turn on you or refuse to do what you tell him to.
I wonder if this is why Thackeray called the character by that name.
Just a thought.

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[–] peggygeordie 12 years ago

Thanks! I made the connection but wondered how many people did.

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[–] peggygeordie 12 years ago

You are not the only one. Philip Glenister can do more with just his eyes than any actor I know. As one reviewer said, he makes goodness charismatic. He is self-effacing and often hurt by the slights of others, yet you feel that at his core there is a strength and a self-respect that will rise above it. Because he is so often hurt, he understands the pain of others and will do anything to mitigate it, even at the cost of his own hopes. It is in the small gestures: the flicker of an eye, the quiet voice, the willingness to offer himself in every situation, and if his judgment isn't always equal to his heart, we should all have such a flaw. (I agree with the writer below, that Dobbins thought that Amelia might literally die without George... such was the sentiment of his times.)

It was endearing to find out that his entrance, where his hat is knocked off by the chandelier, was not planned but a result of Glenister's height - and of course it was so perfect for Dobbins that they left it in!

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[–] Maddyclassicfilms 8 years ago

I agree Dobbin is adorable. He is obviously a good man it must have been torture for him to have been around his true love but be seen only as a friend when he loved her so.

I loved the scene where he said to all the soldiers about Amelia that "the man who calls her names better not do so in my hearing".

Philip Glenister gives a very good performance in this adaptation.

Go to bed Frank or this is going to get ugly .

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