Cole was treated so unfairly - Charmed (1998) Discussion

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

Re: Cole was treated so unfairly
image for user Realrockerhalloween
by Realrockerhalloween
» Tue Nov 3 2015 06:31:19
IMDb member since October 2014
I agree. It was unfair to lead Cole on that their was a chance since the spell was caste and when he gave up his powers Phoebe took him back. What Phoebe should've done is tell him that she wasn't interested instead of giving false hope. Also she should never have looked at him as a monster when the Succubas almost got him to kill her. He was under her influence and had control. Agian in this ep giving him false hope. I can get that Phoebe was done with the relationship but to give someone false hope is bad and not taking responsibility for her actions in the Queen of the underworld as if it was all Cole's fault was worse. Phoebe did the wrong things and ended up costing a half human to lose himself to evil. So in a way Phoebe was no saint in the matter

I don't believe Cole was ever around when the Succubus was...

reply

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] MarkAnthony1990 8 years ago

What about killing the innocent woman in the hospital after causing Paige to crash into her?

Not possessed. No excuses. Just Cole.

Babies kill TV shows!

reply

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] MarkAnthony1990 8 years ago

Yes, it was.

He wasn't possessed. He drove himself mad.

Babies kill TV shows!

reply

[–] trinkabell 8 years ago

Phoebe has to take some of the blame for him going mad.

reply

[–] JustEs 8 years ago

Then he has to take some of the blame for turning her into the Queen of the Underworld - and like Marshey, I don't believe that he was ever possessed - just gave into the powers when they went into him because he'd rather be evil and powerful than good and powerless. If that wasn't the case, he would've/should've told the sisters so they could take the powers/essence out of him. He never did. He didn't want to be good - he just wanted Phoebe.

Everything that happened to him was his own fault.

reply

[–] trinkabell 8 years ago

I see where your coming from. If that were true. He wouldn't have tried to give his powers to the wizard. And if phoebe didn't stop him from doing that. He would have no powers. And she would never have become the queen

reply

[–] JustEs 8 years ago

And if she never became queen she wouldn't have treated him so horribly in S5. Little Miss Itsnevermyfault could never admit blame - she always had to put it on someone else.

It's why I stop watching the series after "All Hell Breaks Loose" and will never buy the S4-8 DVDs.

reply

[–] trinkabell 8 years ago

Exactly. So how is that his fault?

reply

[–] MarkAnthony1990 8 years ago

Because he was the one to impregnate her/poison her causing her to move over to the dark side?

Phoebe wasn't aware of the Seer's potions she was being fed, nor was she aware she was having sex with the Source.

Babies kill TV shows!

reply

[–] idramafree 8 years ago

I believe she was aware, by that time that she was having sex with The Source. She was evil by choice. Paige and Piper made her choose and she chose Cole, knowing he was evil. That's why she had to sneak around and help her sisters save innocents. She knew what she was doing.
PS.. I loved Phoebe and Cole together, good or evil!

Not that there's anything wrong with that.....

reply

[–] chansondusoleil 8 years ago

I believe she was aware, by that time that she was having sex with The Source. She was evil by choice. Paige and Piper made her choose and she chose Cole, knowing he was evil. That's why she had to sneak around and help her sisters save innocents. She knew what she was doing.

Exactly this, all the way through.

She vanquished the wizard knowing everything and wasn't controlled by anything, while the guy possessed by the Source was giving up his powers because he didn't want to be evil and wanted to stay with Phoebe. Really think about that one.

reply

[–] MarkAnthony1990 8 years ago

She was pregnant by this point and clearly influenced by the spawn of evil, throwing fire from her hands being the most obvious indication.

Babies kill TV shows!

reply

[–] chansondusoleil 8 years ago

At that point she was not influenced by anything outside of her own selfishness. She was choosing to use the fire throwing power on her own. She wasn't "controlled" by the spawn of the source until Womb Raider.

reply

[–] MarkAnthony1990 8 years ago

I never said she was controlled. I said she was influenced. Clearly that was the intention of the story, Charmed was never subtle.

Babies kill TV shows!

reply

[–] justinmacri2032 7 years ago

back then the word " Double Agent" did not exist then. So Phebe was a double agent.

Bond James Bond

reply

[–] MarkAnthony1990 7 years ago

Yes, it did exist. It's existed for decades. Lol

Double agent or no, the fact of the story is she was not automatically Evil of her own sole free will. That's just not correct.

Babies kill TV shows!

reply

[–] 7 years ago

[deleted]

[–] MarkAnthony1990 8 years ago

You think Phoebe knew she was having sex with the Source BEFORE getting pregnant?

The story was clearly written to show her being severely influenced by the unborn child inside of her. Hence Phoebe's demonic powers coming directly from the foetus.

Babies kill TV shows!

reply

[–] idramafree 8 years ago

Phoebe found out she was pregnant after she married Cole. Remember, she didn't want it to be true because she didn't want to have his baby? Though she was tricked into marrying Cole (as The Source) she did, chose to stay with him knowing he was evil. The Seee fed her the potion after she was pregnant; prior to that she was not under anyone's spell. She was in love and chose to be with her man no matter what. If it were a spell, Piper and Paige would have tried to free her instead of making her choose.

reply

[–] MarkAnthony1990 8 years ago

Though she was tricked into marrying Cole (as The Source) she did, chose to stay with him knowing he was evil. The Seee fed her the potion after she was pregnant; prior to that she was not under anyone's spell. She was in love and chose to be with her man no matter what. If it were a spell, Piper and Paige would have tried to free her instead of making her choose.

She was heavily influenced by the foetus and the Seer's potion.
Hence, before finally rejoining her sisters and vanquishing the Source, she has an argument with Cole about him not trusting her to be allowed to make her own decisions and poisoning her. He said he knows what it's like to have both good and evil battling inside and be out of control. So he and the Seer took that control. That was the point of the story.

Even to the point where by Womb Raider, the baby takes over Phoebe completely and controls her body.

Phoebe found out she was pregnant after she married Cole. Remember, she didn't want it to be true because she didn't want to have his baby?

Yes, she got pregnant after marrying Cole, but AGAIN, she didn't know he was a demon, let alone the Source, at this point.
Phoebe was freaked out and wasn't sure if it was what she wanted because it's Phoebe, she didn't feel ready to be a mother at this point. That's completely separate from the baby being demonic, which she didn't know.

Babies kill TV shows!

reply

[–] MarkAnthony1990 7 years ago

She was evil by choice.

I was just watching season 4 on Netflix and was reminded of this discussion when watching The Fifth Halliwheel.
I didn't remember this line of the Seer's, but it seems to point clearly towards Phoebe's choice not being entirely of her own freewill.

[Cut to the underworld. A cave. The Seer is there standing in front of a cauldron. Cole flames in.]

Cole: I was with the entire family, have you lost your mind?

Seer: Forgive me. But it was imperative that I have you here now if my ritual is to take effect.

Cole: I am trying to be the perfect husband. The perfect brother-in-law. It would help if I didn't have demons waving at me from the dance floor.

Seer: If my fertility ritual fails, the show's over anyway. Tomorrow's harvest moon will be the one chance to impregnate your wife. The power of the moon combined with this tonic will make her fertile to a demon's seed, and override any preventative measures she's taken. Her favourite sweet?

Cole: Chocolate.

Seer: Then I'll mix it with the chocolate. You must feed it to her in the morning, and then finish the job when the moon is high in the night's sky. And if you succeed, the evil spawn growing inside her will influence her only for lenience so that when she does discover the truth, she will bend to your will.

Cole: She will bend to her love for me.

(The Seer picks up a knife and moves closer to Cole.)

Seer: For the tonic.

(She cuts his hand and he drips his blood into the cauldron.)

One of the purposes of her being poisoned by the Seer with the chocolate (and later the tonic) was to make her susceptible to the Source and his spawn.

Babies kill TV shows!

reply

[–] gzv969 7 years ago

Very true. It compromised phoebes judgment and continued to with the daily tonic the seer made her drink after that. I remember a couple of years ago I mentioned also on this board that I believed the peice of chocolate Piper took was also influential in what eventually allowed Wyatt to be succeptible to evil and becoming the Source in the future which Chris came back to fix. And also maybe part of the reason Piper had wyatt instead of the girl she originally foresaw. Since the chocolate was created to spawn an evil and powerful son

reply

[–] JustEs 7 years ago

The chocolate had nothing to do with Wyatt. I used to think so, but remember what the Seer said - it allowed Phoebe's womb to accept demon seed. Leo definitely wasn't shooting demon seed.

And Melinda became Wyatt when Piper accepted her new destiny, protecting the Twice-Blessed Brat rather than protecting innocents. After all, it was the Liar of Destiny who told her she was pregnant.

reply

[–] MarkAnthony1990 7 years ago

Ah, yes. That liar telling her she's pregnant... when she's pregnant.

Babies kill TV shows!

reply

[–] JustEs 7 years ago

That's not how he was the Liar. He was the Liar when he had them thinking that if they accepted his offer they'd go back to protecting innocents (that's what they'd just done). Instead, thanks to him making sure she'd have the Twice-Blessed Brat, their destiny changed to constantly battling demons and protecting the Twice-Blessed Brat.

I can't imagine any of them accepting that as their destiny if he had told them the truth.

By the way, I won't miss you the way I'm sure you won't miss me.

reply

[–] MarkAnthony1990 7 years ago

He didn't make sure anything.
She was pregnant. He merely alluded to the fact before leaving.

reply

[–] 7 years ago

[deleted]

[–] MarkAnthony1990 7 years ago

By the way, I won't miss you the way I'm sure you won't miss me.

What's this supposed to mean?
We discuss Charmed on a discussion board. But thanks for that there was me thinking you were one of the few capable of discussing without getting petty and personal.

What a nasty comment.

Babies kill TV shows!

reply

[–] SerenityInSpace 7 years ago

protecting the Twice-Blessed Brat rather than protecting innocents.

Mothers tend to put their own children before strangers.

I know I would.

reply

[–] 7 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Corate 8 years ago

That was an obivous cop out. Cole's character was morally grey beforehand and it was clear he struggled with his powers. However once it was decided Julian would be leaving they switched Cole to just plain evil to make it easier to vanquish him. It was poor writing with zero pay off.

Cole as treated unfairly and his demise, and innocent he has ever killed, is Phoebe's fault. She had several times to do the right thing, such as bind or vanquish him (such as when he wanted peace of mind, free of powers) and she bailed each time.

reply

[–] trinkabell 8 years ago

I wonder how the story would have gone if he didn't leave for nip tuck

I know that if Shannon wasn't fired. Season 4 would have started where 3 left off. Phoebe would have been still been in the underworld in exchange for both her sisters lives. And she was supposed to turn into his queen back then.
But Shannon did get fired
That's why season 4 starts off all weird.

reply

[–] JustEs 8 years ago

He didn't leave for Nip Tuck. He got that after he was off Charmed.

Brad Kern told him before Season Five that his character would last until the 100th episode.

reply

[–] trinkabell 8 years ago

Oh. I thought I read he left for NT
Either way I wonder how S4 would have been if Shannon stayed and phoebe stayed stuck in the underworld with Cole?

reply

[–] MarkAnthony1990 7 years ago

I think season 4 would've panned out pretty much the same.

Only the opening two parter would've focussed on saving Phoebe and Cole from the Underworld as opposed to dealing with Prue's death.

Babies kill TV shows!

reply

[–] JustEs 7 years ago

Ah! I never even considered that for the opening, but I'll bet you're right.

I'd heard that it would've started something like "Charmed and Dangerous" with something similar to "Centennial Charmed" for the season finale.

reply

[–] MarkAnthony1990 7 years ago

I think Charmed and Dangerous was originally considered as the season 4 finale rather than premiere.

Changed no doubt when Kern decided he wanted to completely change the show in season 5.

reply

[–] !!!deleted!!! (63651175) 8 years ago

I liked the way the actor portrayed the character, but him showing up always made me feel like it was the beginning of the end. Cool character, but he also made me want to fast forward the episode.

reply

[–] s-stephanie1 8 years ago

I agree. I hated what they did to him. He was constantly trying to change, to be good for Phoebe. He just wanted to be with her. But everytime he asked her to save him, she didn't. She could have avoided all that evil in season 3 I think it was. By stripping his powers when he asked her to. Then he was overcome be evil and eventually became the source. But so many times did he want to change and be saved. But each time she found something wrong and didn't do it. It irritated me so much! I felt so bad for him.

reply

[–] MarkAnthony1990 8 years ago

That's not Phoebe's fault. She refused to help him because he betrayed her trust in him and killed a witch in their house.

Then, in season 4 when they did strip his powers and vanquish Belthazor, it was proven that it didn't make a difference because he was led back to the dark side again anyway.

Out of all the selfishness and stupid decisions they gave the sisters in the later seasons, I truly believe Cole was never one of them.

Babies kill TV shows!

reply

[–] s-stephanie1 8 years ago

Cole told Phoebe that she needed to hurry with that potion because he was really struggling to not give in to his demonic side. And she knew that they were trying to turn him. So when she went up to the attic to get him right before he killed that witch she saw that other guy with him. She couldn't get to him but she saw that the guy obviously did something to him and that's when he killed that witch. I don't know, I just think she gave up too easily on him. And even if she didn't want to be with him she could've, should've stripped his powers. That way he could also not harm anyone. Instead she broke the glass with the potion in it. It made me so mad. I'm researching the show and I just saw that episode and I didn't realize but now I really think that cole ended that way because of phoebe and the sisters. Or maybe if phoebe left him alone and quit changing her mind over and over about wanting him he wouldn't have risked his life for the charmed ones or continue fighting between his good and evil side, and wouldn't have struggled so much. I just think they really tortured cole as a person. If phoebe wouldn't have messed with him so much he could've actually had a chance to be good. If not he would've just been evil and vanquished and that's it. But instead he was a tortured soul the whole show and that made me sad.

reply

[–] s-stephanie1 8 years ago

I meant rewatching the show not researching.

reply

[–] MarkAnthony1990 8 years ago

Phoebe only changed her mind about him because he wouldn't go away.

Once she confessed to her sisters she'd faked his death, that was the end of it. He then approached her trying for a relationship. He earned her trust (and somewhat that of her sisters) in the time loop episode and then lost it again when he killed a witch in their house.

Then after his vanquish in season 4, he gets himself out of the wasteland and pesters Phoebe. It wasn't her picking him up and dropping him, it was him constantly showing up like a bad smell.

Without Phoebe, he'd have never had any chances to be good. They gave him more chances than he would've deserved given everything he did.

Him being a "tortured" soul had nothing to do with the sisters, that was just his human and demon sides.

Babies kill TV shows!

reply

[–] s-stephanie1 8 years ago

Yeah, you're right. Him being a tortured soul was him fighting between his human and demonic sides. And I just think that they could have saved him but they gave up on him. I mean the first couple of times. Before becoming the source, after that it was kind of too late.

reply

[–] Sleazy_E 8 years ago

It wouldn't have mattered what Phoebe or the sisters did, the only thing keeping him on the good side was Phoebe. He never became good because the evil things he'd done were torturing him, but because he wanted to be with Phoebe. The villanous things he had done never really seemed to bother him that much. So when he was suffering in season 5 it was justice seeing as he had probably done alot worse to other good people. In a way Cole was actually the most villanous demon in the entire show. As a half human, he could feel compasion and love but he seemed to truly enjoy killing and not only that, but to mess with peoples life before killing them. Phoebe might be the first person to capture Cole's heart, but there's no doubt that during his almost 200 years as an assassin, he'd probably made some other woman fall for him and then kill her. So yeah I witness season 5 as the most cruel demon in the entire charmed universe finally getting to suffer in the way that he probably made his victims suffer. With all that being said though, Cole is one of my fav characters.

.../ `---____________|]
../_==o;;;;;;;;_____.:/
.. ), --.(_((_) /
..//(.)//
.//__//

reply

[–] saikano_75 8 years ago

I think he was treated unfairly at times. to be honest I started hating his relationship with Phoebe around season four. I don't think they were good for each other and while it was sad to see him finally die in the fifth season, I'm glad Julian moved on to Nip/Tuck.

I wish the creators didn't make Cole go crazy and become obsessed with Phoebe. she wasn't worth it at all.

reply

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] justinmacri2032 7 years ago

he also in 2005 did Fantastic 4

Bond James Bond

reply

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] pfarnell 7 years ago

yes, and fancy having to spend that much time looking like a junkie jonesing for a fix or someone in first stages of rabies infection, but , it did have it's compensations-
Phoebe continually sucking his face off.

reply

[–] SammiWin (1112) 6 years ago

I wouldn't say "Cole" himself was treated unfairly, but the "character" was, because they kept dragging him along in the show. Like they wanted us to hate him. But, Cole made his own choices and wouldn't let go of Phoebe, didn't turn out good for him in the end. But at least we got to see him again in Season 7 as somewhat of a "redemption" for him.

reply