Guitarwork


I think it's a good movie but one thing that annoys the hell out of me
is penn's acting when he's playing the guitar. I play the guitar myself and it's all too clear that penn has never held a guitar in his hands before.
when he's playing high notes his left hand is al the way down at the head of the guitar, next he's playing low sequences and his hand jumps up & down the fretboard. this crashes the credibility of penn's performance, pity... :o(
it's perfectly possible to make it seem realistic, even ralph macchio
can bring a far more difficult piece perfectly convincing (crossroads).
best guitar player in the world my ***


"I haven't got time for this mickey-mouse bullsh*t!!" Norman Stansfield

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Yeah it was a bit pathetic, obviously method acting doesn't quite stretch to Sean Penn - who looked like he'd never seen, let alone played, a guitar in his life before - it was just a load of clumsy strumming while staring into space.

Surely it wouldn't have been too much of an effort to become the 2nd best jazz guitarist in the world as "research" for the role!

European Cup Winners '99

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Oh dear!

I also play guitar and thought Penn's playing looked fine!

I know he didn't play it himself, but I assumed he had some knowledge of the guitar and plays it a bit himself.

I couldn't say I noticed anything wrong with it.

But on totally different subject, wasn't that a fantastic guitar he was playing? Same type - possibly not same maker - as Django Reinhardt played, and which modern Gypsies (and acoustic Jazz lovers) still play.

This was the type Penn's character used:

http://www.12fret.com/new/gitaneD500.jpg

Though Reinhardt himself more frequently used this slightly different model:

http://www.lutherie.net/dr503_2.GIF

As is displyed in a photo of the Great Gyspsy himself:

http://members.tripod.com/~Marc_Masselin/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/django50.jpg

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I'm afraid your remark sais more about your knowledge of guitars then his :o)
the guitarwork looked totaly fake, clumpsy and as the poster above you has already remarked it seems he has never ever had a guitar in his hands before this movie.
and it is not at all impossible to fake guitarwork in a good way like in crossroads where ralph macchio does a far better job.
Sean Penn is a fine actor (state of grace :)) but please don't ever give him a role like this anymore (or suggest he can play guitar very well but never actually show it)


"I haven't got time for this mickey-mouse bullsh*t!!" Norman Stansfield

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"I'm afraid your remark sais more about your knowledge of guitars then his"

I am not sure how much knowledge of guitars one needs to make a judgement on these things, but perhaps its also worth noting that the film wasn't made for people who have an excessive interest in guitars, it is afterall a drama.

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I have played Classical and Jazz Piano for 40 years, and so I am lucky not to have to notice how well Sean Penn faked the guitar playing...I have no clue when it comes to guitar.

Allen Roth
"I look up, I look down..."

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I have played Classical and Jazz Piano for 40 years, and so I am lucky not to have to notice how well Sean Penn faked the guitar playing...

I have no clue when it comes to guitar.

Allen Roth
"I look up, I look down..."


You might find it a curious bit of trivia that a gentleman by the name of Arlen Roth is a very accomplished professional guitarist.

Sorry - the combination of your statement and name just kind of struck me as being humorously coincidental.

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I rewatched this again today, and I have changed my mind and now agree with you, his fingers are all over the place and not even moving in time to the music. I concur: "it's all too clear that penn has never held a guitar in his hands before".

Great film though.

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I watched Sweet and Lowdown this evening and being a musician myself i was very aware of the fact that Sean Penn obviously doesn't play the guitar, i did wonder why we were able to see his fingers in close up as surely even people with little knowledge of guitars would realise he doesn't play himself.

I did enjoy this film and the music but i do feel that perhaps someone else's hands should have been used in the close up shots.

Rotten Addict!

WWW.PSYCHOGENETIC.CO.UK

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Obviously he doesn't know play the guitar, but the escence of the movie it doesn't that if he knows or not play the guitar, it's much more than that.
I readed that he took lessons of guitar for this movie, but they are for to take well the instrument and have an idea to play it, but imagine, the playback is good in general.
Of course that you or who really play the guitar should see that he is wrong, but to the common people, he was great on the entire movie, not just playing the guitar, in the whole movie.

I loved this movie, Sean Penn and the music. Woody is a genious choosing the music for his movies!

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yes, he took guitar lessons to handle the guitar well. For being a short time to rehersal, he played very well.
"These precious illusions in my head did not let me down when I was a kid..."


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he doesn't seem to apply his new knowledge to his performance then.
maybe he was too busy getting his facial expressions right to also
pay attention to his fingers. Also it's not easy to look natural playing
gipsy swing if you only know four chords.

"I haven't got time for this mickey-mouse bullsh*t!!" Norman Stansfield

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I agree with you in part, but I still think that he did a wonderful role, in all his integrity.

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It was obvious that he wasn't playing... not glaringly so, but it was. They could have limited the close shots. Still, it wasn't like he was strumming the headstock with a penny; it was exact, but it wasn't AWFUL.

They should have signed on Sean's brother, Michael, for those close takes. He's quite the musician. Great film, in any case.

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Well, let's be fair: playing like Django Rheinhardt is very, very hard. You will rarely meet someone, in person, in your life who can play in that style. So even accomplished guitarists would have a hard time faking that well enough to suit other guitar players who watched. I am one [a guitar player, not accomplished], and immediately saw the difference. Didn't really hurt the movie for me. I was just disappointed that I wasn't seeing real playing because I wanted to cop some licks by learning from the movie. Oh well.

Also, let's not blame Mr. Penn. It was the director's responsibility to decide whether it was important that Penn looked like he was playing, and how much effort to put into that. He could have cut to a stunt guitarist's hands instead, if it mattered that much to him. They do this in movies all the time. Mr. Allen is a musician, and I'm sure the issue did not go unnoticed. He might have decided that only guitar players would care?

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I've been playing guitar since 1995 and, having seen the movie twice, can say that while Penn's act-playing is obviously fake in places, it's remarkably "authentic" in others. Even when the fretwork is way off, the rhythmic elements are usually right in the pocket. Take that into consideration, as well as the complexity of the style that Penn is attempting to pantomime, and his performance starts to seem a little more impressive.
I agree that using stunt fingers for close-ups would've enhanced the affecting quality of the guitar scenes, though.

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Maybe the playing was intended to look the way it looks. =)

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Hey you Guitar geniuses ,I'd love to (not hear) SEE you play ;-) I'm a guitarist also ,but who played the soundtrack?? Mainly the guitar parts on that movie ?

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ok ,got it Howard Alden and the allmighty Bucky Pizzarelli :))

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Sean Penn, while his fingers don't look exactly right, DOES come close enough that people who aren't seriously into guitar playing themselves will never know the difference. The thing that amazed me, however, is his body during those scenes.
It's unbelievable; he looks exactly like a guitarist into his music. Watch his legs, the subtle twitches and movements. He looks like he's going to bust out into a wild, rabid dance. The best example of this is the talent show scene.
As a guitarist myself, I wasn't fooled by his fingerwork. But his body motion was absolutely flawless. It's possible that he is the greatest actor who is still in his prime.
And by the way, who expects him to move his fingers in the exact right positions? That kind of jazz is totally wild and manic, and among the toughest in music. Macchio in Crossroads only had to fake those stupid tap solos that Steve Vai did. There is no serious movement needed to visually fool the audience.
Sean Penn's performance was perfect. And if you were focusing on his fingers rather than the music, then you missed the movie entirely.

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I think in general there is this incredible awkwardness about the Emmett Ray character. He seems to not fit almost anywhere he is. True, he only seems stable, happy, while playing the guitar, but he just sticks out like a sore thumb everywhere else. Maybe there's style and character in having his guitar playing look a bit silly. I'm not an apologist for Penn, or for Allen, I'm just wondering aloud.

Sometimes mistakes are on purpose. Kubrick moved objects around the room from shot to shot in a few scenes in A Clockwork Orange, pretty much just to *beep* with his audience, give them a sense of genuine uneasiness....

"You can disappear here without even knowing it."
---Bret Easton Ellis
Less Than Zero

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I have to agree with darko2525 and and few other recent posters. Penn and (especailly) Allen have been making good movies longer that some of the posters to this thread have been alive. Surely they noticed that things weren't synching up with the music.

It must have been a conscious decision. For art sake or for practicality they decided either they want it to look like it did or they didn't have time for Sean Penn to become a guitar player.

They do only take about 3-4 months to shoot an entire picture. Seems a bit short to learn to be the 2nd greatest player...or even look like it.

I think it was a bit of both.

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I agree with that, the fact that Woody Allen is a Great director, writer, actor, musician, etc, a genious, one of the persons I most admire, doesn't mean that all the people he hires are going to be like that. Sean Penn is also one of a kind, but he is best at acting, I mean, common, he's a great actor but you want him also to be a great guitar player????. Please, give him a break, what will be next, asking for real bullets because that's not real enough for you??


Anyway, great movie, Woody Allen is amazing

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Hey, you know what? I play the guitar too but I really didn't mind seeing Sean not playing the right notes. Why even bother to come up with a remark like this? Showing how smart you are to recognize such a minor asset? Come off it...

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sure, he could have had a professional guitar player do more close ups, but for the 99% of people who wouldn't spot it, it was a much more appealing shot to show his hands and then pan up to his face.
i'm sure most military people can find faults in the way combat is portrayed in films, most doctors in the way operations are performed, the boxing in raging bull looks like no real fight i've ever seen, but so what?
these are fiction and so i can't imagine why this aspect deserves this much scrutiny as if sean penn was promoted as a protege guitar player, and you're looking for faults. these aren't the bin laden tapes, this is a woody allen film.

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He definitely had problems with the chords.

But you can't blame him, he's an actor not a musician.

I don't think he could master the guitar with a month of practice...

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