You shall not side with the great against the powerless
Northam's character, Robert, cites this quotation in making his case to press forward in court. I haven't been able to find its source. Any one know who is famous for saying it?
shareTrentinaNE, I too tried to find the source of this quote, thinking it was in the British Constitution. I had no such luck and therefore believe that it was the superb writing of either the original playwright Terrence Rattigan, written in 1946, or was introduced in the screen play of David Mamet.
shareThe UK has no single constitutional document comparable to those of other nations. It is therefore often said that the country has an "unwritten", uncodified or de facto constitution.However, the majority of the British constitution does exist in the written form of statutes, court judgments and treaties. The constitution has other unwritten sources, including parliamentary constitutional conventions and the royal prerogatives.
It's from the Bible, Exodus 23:2
Usually it is translated and quoted this way:
"You shall not follow a majority in wrongdoing; when you bear witness in a lawsuit, you shall not side with the majority so as to pervert justice."
Sir Robert tells us that both quotes are "from the same source". The other one is from the new part of the Bible, Matthew 25:40.
But what you've quoted doesn't mean exactly what Sir Robert said. The Exodus quote speaks only of majority vs. minority, which isn't the same thing as great vs. powerless.
Furthermore, this Bible quote seems to me to caution against following the majority simply because it is the majority and people often want to be on the winning side, and therefore will side with the majority. That's not quite what Sir Robert was talking about, although I guess it could be one of ther reasons the court wanted to find the boy guilty.
There's nothing in your quote about powerlessness.
Also, there's nothing in the movie quote about the desire to pervert justice as a motivation.
Leviticus 19:5 is also on the same topic, but it isn't a bona fide scriptural quotation, but a paraphrase of similar verses, I think.
Have you tried the Magna Carta/ civil war tracts etc?
It must be a quote from the Bible, because Sir Robert says that the two quotes are "from the same source", and the other one is definitely Matthew 25:40.
I couldn't find the exact wording, so I took for granted that the difference is due to different translations. You are right though that there is nothing in my quote about powerlessness.
Furthermore, this Bible quote seems to me to caution against following the majority simply because it is the majority and people often want to be on the winning side, and therefore will side with the majority. That's not quite what Sir Robert was talking about, although I guess it could be one of ther reasons the court wanted to find the boy guilty.
As I understand it, he spoke exactly about being on the winning side (the side which can bring you benefit), when he spoke of siding with the great against the powerless. How do you understand it?
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I was just thinking that the people in charge of the school have a lot more power than the kid they're accusing, and therefore the court will be more likely to believe what they say, rather than what the boy says, and be willing to convict on circumstantial evidence.
HOWEVER it's been many years since I saw this movie, so I might very well have it wrong.
I did think, and almost said it in my post, that I remembered Sir Robert making that remark about the quotes coming from the same source, and that I thought he was referring to the bible when he said that. So I wasn't really arguing that the quotes didn't come from the Bible, but I was perplexed because the Exodus quote didn't seem quite right.
But I really can't know until I see the movie again. Sorry to seem more argumentative than I meant to be.
I was just thinking that the people in charge of the school have a lot more power than the kid they're accusing, and therefore the court will be more likely to believe what they say, rather than what the boy says, and be willing to convict on circumstantial evidence.
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That is definitely part of it - they are the Navy, (Ronnie is a naval cadet) so that goes back to the institutions of power and privilege - they are challenging the state.
There are quite a few references in the Bible about not simply siding with power because it is powerful if it is not right, which is a large part of the moral of the play, surely?
It is up to me to apologize, if I came across as polemic. I really didn't mean to.
We seem to basically agree anyway.
As far as I remember, Sir Robert doesn't say these words in court (the actual trial isn't shown in the film), but in Parliament. In this scene he is still seeking permission to bring the Winslow case to court. Since Admiralty decisions are official acts of the government, which cannot be sued without its consent, Sir Robert has to sue the Crown itself by a Petition of Right in order to bring the case to court. ("Let right be done!")
Of course Sir Robert's chances for success are very bad, and the Members of Parliament don't think of making an enemy of the Crown, the highest authority, because of a powerless child. Sir Robert can only convince them by refering to an even higher authority - the words of God. That's why it makes a lot of sense that the two quotes originate from the Bible, and, as you say, Sir Robert mentions that they are "from the same source".
However, I don't insist on the source being Exodus 23:2, and I would be grateful, if somebody could provide a better source. But I have searched a digital document of the Bible and haven't found anything. It is possible that rebkad is right and that it is not a literal quote, but an adapted one or a paraphrase; or the different wording is due to a completely different translation of the original text of the Bible.
Perhaps it is the book of common prayer or something like that? I agree though, given they are from the 'same source' the Bible seems most like. Could Sir Robert have access to anything other than the King James Version?
And, on a purely structural level, would Rattigan allow one of his big lines to be a direct quotation without doing something to it to make it 'his', ie paraphrase or adapt?
Unfortunately I do not have an answer to your questions.
The only thing I can say is that the other quote from the Bible (Matthew 25:40) seems to be a direct one: "what you do to the least of them you do to me".
Actually, this has got nothing to do with Rattigan- neither the courtroom scenes nor the scenes in Parliament are in the original play. We only learn about it all from either Catherine, who has been there, or from a newspaper article that Arthur Winslow quotes. So I guess we have to thank David Mamet for it and ask him about his source material.
It is our choices that show what we truly are... far more than our abilities.
Actually, this has got nothing to do with Rattigan- neither the courtroom scenes nor the scenes in Parliament are in the original play.
Thank you for this information. I haven't read the play (couldn't find it anywhere online), and even though I read in a review that the scenes in the House of Commons are not in the original play, I had forgotten about it.
However, there are no courtroom scenes in the film either. We only learn about the trial by the conversations about it in the house of the Winslow family.
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You`re right- no courtroom scenes in Mamet`s movie, only the ones in the House. I got a bit mixed up as I watched both movies last week, the Mamet one and the old one from 1948 which has both courtroom scenes and scenes in the House.
Have you tried Amazon? I got my copy of the play from them. Its publisher is Nick Hern Books London and it has the ISBN 1-85459-467-2 - hope this might help you!
It is our choices that show what we truly are... far more than our abilities.
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