Was he guilty?


The boy's reaction was a bit suspect at the end. Almost as though he was astonished that he had actually got away with it.

reply

One thing's certain, his lack of thanks to the man who "got him off" would have earned him a severe reprimand from his father in such a strict family and society. I found that very odd.

Perhaps the fact he wasn't in court suggests that he thought it a lost cause because he was guilty. I don't know.

reply

Good point, where were the thanks. As emotionally repressed as this society of people obviously was I would still have expected at least a firm handshake between the two.

reply

For the reason's Jeremy Northam's character stated (after deciding to take on the case) it is clear that the boy is innocent. I thought Ronnie's reaction was in keeping with his manner shown throughout the film.

reply

Nah, the ungrateful little brat did it, of that there can be no doubt. The solicitor was smitten with his sister from day one, that's the only reason he pursued the case, anyone could see that.

reply

I don't think that's the only reason he took the case, although it obviously played a part. I think he also did it because--at least it seems this way to me--he's the kind of guy who would take anything that's a challenge, and this case certainly is one. And I think that he wouldn't have taken it if he didn't believe Ronnie was innocent. Which, I believe, he was.

reply

He was definitely guilty. There was NO ONE else who could have done it, and they didn't come up with any other suspect. Sure the keeper at the post office wasn't positive about his face, but come on, can you remember the faces of every person you encounter with for a few minutes? Point is, she was quite *positive* that the cadet who cashed the forged and stolen postal order was the same one who encashed the 15/6 order. That was Ronnie.

I think in real life, Morton might not have thought or even said that the boy was "plainly innocent." I think, in real life, when he "interrogated" him at his law office, he was just OBSERVING and CHECKING the boy to see if he was worth defending. Meaning:

1. does he have what it takes to INSIST ON THAT STORY (whether true or not) before a jury?

2. no matter what happens in court, can he at least be consistent and convincing in denying culpability?

3. can he do that no matter all the evidence staring him in the face, or will he buckle under pressure?

And obviously, after he had questioned the boy, Morton satisfied himself that Ronnie *could* be relied upon to keep insisting on his innocence, and wouldn't "break down" and change his story amidst intense pressure.

So Morton took on the case. It didn't really matter whether Ronnie was really guilty or innocent. His attitude and demeanor was that of a "good client" to defend. Many lawyers think in those terms.

reply

I think you've seen too many gimmicky American movies with twist after twist after twist. The odd thing about this movie was that we, the audience, were told what to believe and to take it at face value, something that we are not used to as moviegoers. We got so caught up in the question of, is he guilty or not, that we looked for any and all subtle clues for an answer. Actually, his guilt or innocence was sort of beside the point. This is a drama about individual courage and sticking to principle, not a court case about a boy's guilt or innocence. When sir Robert told us the boy was innocent, we were supposed to believe him and proceed on that premise. It is only because of our conditioning as American moviegoers that we persisted in expecting something else. For those who were able to believe that the boy was telling the truth, which I admit I couldn't quite, the rest of the movie has a different meaning and effect. Accept the sincerity of Ronnie and his father and his sister and Sir Robert from the outset and you'll understand the movie better. And think about why Mamet made the relatively insignificant maid be the bearer of the news of victory in the climactic scene, rather than delivering the news in a potentially much more dramatic scene in the courtroom. I think his purpose was to make the point I suggested above, that this was not a movie simply about winning a case in court.

reply

Agreed. He's just a kid.

My accountant says, "1 + 1, 40% of the time, equals divorce".

reply

Only 40% of the time? I would have thought it was more.

reply

I don't think Ronnie's reaction at the end shows guilt.

As Sir Robert said, his lack of put-on airs showed that he wasn't putting on a show for others, but simply saying what he thought. He was also a young boy and probably very tired of all the fuss and legalese.

And one of the characteristics of this movie is the understated tone, which would include the lack of a cliched joyful hugging and tearful embracing by Ronnie at the end of it all.

reply

The only 'fact' we have about young Ronnie it that he is capable of opening other people's mail. His sister Kate reprimanded him for it but it was never referred to again, it suggests he was guilty.

reply

I don't think he was guilty. I think he was innocent and Morton proved it. He said the missing time was because he was smoking. I do think that Morton saw Kate at the earlier trial (the trades union man who commited suicide) and was smitten. I think he decided to hear the case because of her, but took the case because the boy was innocent. The reaction by Ronnie at the end was, imo, typical of a teenager and not because he was guilty. How many times have we done something for a kid, only to have them shrug it off. The classic example is the kid who bugs their parents for the latest toy, only to play with the box it came in more than said toy.

Btw, the DVD commentary is very funny. Seatee suppository, indeed!

reply

[deleted]

nope he didn't do it, the other boy that showed him the way to do his signature did it. Anyway in a court of law all you have to do is prove that you didn't do it... let them figure out "who done it". The person that was the writing specialist was inaccurate.
hugs bus

reply

Punkin-13: "I do think that Morton saw Kate at the earlier trial (the trades union man who commited suicide) and was smitten. I think he decided to hear the case because of her, but took the case because the boy was innocent."

He hadn't met her before. If you take a close look at the first encounter in Sir Robert's office, that's more than clear. Kate barges in, pleading Sir Robert to wait for the arrival of her family and he is just thunderstruck (he actually takes a few seconds to compose himself). All very understated, but clearly there.
Loved it. This play is not about the boy, but about everyone else!
--
"Nobody ever said the IMDB was polite company." MichaelD on the Luther (2003) board.

reply

did you notice the walls? they had sold the pictures and some furniture. The movie didnt express it but many of the characters "Had" given up alot. I thought the father was going to fire the housekeeper at one point. He was short with the money anyway since he didnt have change to give the tree deliver. Come to think of it there was less servents.
hugs bus

reply

This is the real life case of George Archer-Shee (Ronnie Winslow in Mamet's movie). Look up "The Winslow Boy" in wikipedia.

Archer-Shee was completely exonerated by the court and his family received over seven thousand pounds in compensation for expenses and damages to their reputation, a gigantic sum in those days, probably equal to several million dollars today.

A few years after being exonerated, George Archer-Shee was killed in World War I.


reply

The important thing is that the boy should have a fair trial. It is not in Northams characters interest if the boy did it or not although he had other interests such as the boy's sister and to fight for the little man in the society. It is not the opinion that matters it's everybodys right to be treated just.

reply

Not guilty, milud!
If he was guilty he would not have shown such eagerness to be crossexamined. The blink at the end of the last scene and How about that we won, shows that he does not care much about the result because he is happy in his new school. But Poor Dad and sis have to go through a lot of sheer mental torture to get this ungrateful teenager exonerated in the eyes of his peers and society.

reply

I agree. Ronnie's complacent reaction to his acquittal is meant to highlight the fact that his family went through all kinds of painful sacrifice, while he, the center of the storm, is just a kid and therefore fairly oblivious to all the furor. We saw earlier how his parents shielded him from conflict, so it's natural that, at his age, he didn't appreciate the full meaning of all that happened because of him.

reply

I thought Ronnie's lack of reaction could have been to show how he remained untouched by the drama going on around him; that it wasn't important to him, he was still just a boy, and the whole awful situation hadn't left him scarred like some of his family members were afraid it might.

Remember the discussion between Arthur Winslow and his wife where she said that Ronnie may not be grateful to his father for having fought for him and made the case public when he grew up? I think Ronnie's reaction in the last scene illustrated that wouldn't be so.

No practical definition of freedom would be complete without the freedom to take the consequences

reply

ronnie being guilty or not is not actually the point of the story

if you read the original play it'll make much more sense- the reader is supposed to make their own conclusion, and only from what they have been told- not what actually happened

the main point is that he deserved a fair trial

ronnie's indifference at the end is just part of his character- a kid naturally reacting to the situation as he did throughout the play/film

reply

Terence Rattigan based his play on the Archer-Shee case of 1911. The naval cadet was actually George Archer-Shee, son of Sir Martin Archer-Shee, a Bank of England official.

The advocate was Sir Edward Carson who later became prominent in the politics of Northern Ireland.

The outcome was as per. George Archer-Shee joined the army on the outbreak of the First World War and was commissioned as a lieutenant in the South Staffordshire Regiment. He was killed in the first battle of Ypres.

The case was mentioned in Hansard as late as 2004, viz.: 9 Mar 2004 : Column 1438.

Unrelatedly, The Archer-Shees were in court on two further occasions, this time on tax matters!

reply

[deleted]

Speaking of English reserve, could you believe how long it took Violet the housekeeper to get to the point about the verdict? In today's society, she would have barged into the room screaming as if England had just won the World Cup!

reply

His lack of interest simply shows that he was isolated from all the media and social turmoil that his case had generated. He's just a little kid, unaware of all the uproar he caused.

His "shrug" is a nice little detail. Another director would have him jumping for joy.


"Rape is no laughing matter. Unless you're raping a clown."

reply

[deleted]

As Judge Judy would say; "You don't need a good memory if you are telling the truth". Ronnie had a hard time recalling the events with Sir Robert the first time. I don't believe the reason is intimidation. He is guilty no doubt, but would this really have warranted this much attention back then? Sir Robert took the case because of Catherine.

reply

Ronnie did not have a hard time recalling any event. He had an excellent memory, relating the entire conversation with the boy whose postal order had been stolen. When Sir Robert asked him if that is exactly what was said, he replied that the boy may have used another word for "rot". The only thing he said he didn't remember was if there was someone in the locker room with him. Sir Robert knew from the detailed account Ronnie had already given, that that was unlikely and told him "I think you do". Ronnie knew he was going to have to account for his time in the locker room, and for a minute may have been thinking he might say he spoke with someone. In the end, he told the truth there, too, and as Sir Robert said neither fell into the trap nor took the opportunity to dart though the opening that was given him by lying. As someone else here said, his guilt or innocence was beside the point; Ronnie himself seemed to have moved on and put it on the sideburner of his life. It was a portrayal of two people standing up, against great odds, and making great sacrifices in doing so, whether or not they were believed, whether or not anyone appreciated or admired their actions, whether or not they inadvertently hurt others they loved, and whether or not they were punished and villified for it, just because it was what their consciences required of them. The question is, is it worth it, and if not when is it worth it? Is it the true test of one's character?

reply

Amazing how long this thread is going. Saw this movie when it came out and was struck even then at Ronnie's reaction and comment. I' ll leave it as a directing masterstroke meant to provoke just this type of discussion through the years and I'm dismayed that so many official reviews make little or no mention of this final touch of ambivalence in an otherwise straight film.

Oh, and if you're a fan of Mamet, check out my favorite 'The Spanish Prisoner' - easily his best film effort.

One love from Trinidad.

reply

He is guilty no doubt, but would this really have warranted this much attention back then? Sir Robert took the case because of Catherine.

I find it hard to credit that one of the most famous barristers in the country would take on the kid's case merely in hopes of getting to snog the kid's sister. And turn down the position of Lord Chief Justice into the bargain, just so he could continue to see Catherine.

No, he did it for the principle, and I think because he felt disgust at the Admiralty bigwigs throwing their weight around to bully a kid and leave a stain on his future life. He felt satisfied personally that the kid was telling the truth, but besides that, whatever the objective facts were, he felt the kid was entitled to have someone believe him and stand up for him.



Joncumber, I love "The Spanish Prisoner" too -- right up to a certain point, when for me it all falls apart. Every screenplay writer's course you'll ever read says "show important moments, don't talk about them", and what does Mamet do ? An utterly essential piece of plot development is just handed over to one of the characters to deliver in a not-particularly-well-written bit of clunky verbal exposition. My jaw hit the floor, and I spent the rest of the movie thinking "WHY did you do that?!"

It may have been some attempt at subverting plot expectations, but for me it really didn't work that way. It just came across as incredibly bad writing.



You might very well think that. I couldn't possibly comment.

reply

A perfect example of the military going overboard (No pun intended), on discipline in ranks. One thing that never made sense is wouldn't there have been a record of the boy withdrawing the money from the bank? If there was no record, then that would imply he's guilty? What I don't understand is why didn't the Navy just discipline him instead of expelling him. The Navy's over-reaction of a minor crime that could have been dealt with internally, led to a huge court case.

I understand the whole point was the legal representation of the weak vs. the mighty. But just much ado about nothing.

reply

I could be wrong, but hadn't he been given the money as a birthday present ? If I remember correctly, the money hadn't come out of his bank account anyway.

And he was not only in a military academy, but in an officer training school. His superiors there also responded on the principle as much as the details -- there was no way they'd have an officer-in-training who was guilty of theft, of whatever amount. Their necessary course, since they judged him guilty, was to expel him.



You might very well think that. I couldn't possibly comment.

reply

I agree with the comments about the standards of an officer training school. It's virtually universal in such schools that any issue that reflects on a cadet's integrity--no matter how small--is treated very seriously.

In re the comments on Ronnie's demeanor at the news of the legal victory---I didn't take it as Mamet trying to create ambiguity about the character's guilt or innocence.

Instead, I think the young actor was portraying the character's complete faith in his family, and by extension his faith in the barrister his family had hired. Once the trial began, he had no more anxiety--the people he'd learned (throughout his life) to trust completely were in charge, and that was good enough for him.

reply

"And he was not only in a military academy, but in an officer training school."

Was he indeed? Were the British Forces recruiting teenagers at that time? Today you have to be 17 (I think) to get in, but 12/13 does seem a bit low even for pre-WW1.
--
"Nobody ever said the IMDB was polite company." MichaelD on the Luther (2003) board.

reply

To me his reaction was not so much about the case itself but about the message of the whole movie. I think everyone else seemed to care much more about clearing his name and their family's than the boy did. The father and the daughter were convinced that he was innocent and it took a life of its own and had to win the case to prove to themselves that they hadn't wasted all this time and that they were correct in their beliefs. His reaction to me meant that he was least concerned with what happened because he was just a young boy and the case actually became more about the family..particularly the father and daughter..than about the boy. So his nonchalant reaction made alot of sense to me.

I love the Internet.

reply

I think he was guilty. In any case, every time I see this I can't help thinking this is the most ridiculous movie have ever seen. Would a case, such as this, ever be debated for over a year?
This matter should have been just handled at the school level. What a waste of taxpayers money.

Having said that, it's always a joy to watch the sparing of Catherine and Sir Robert Morten. Jeremy Northam is yum.

reply

____________________________________________________________
Would a case, such as this, ever be debated for over a year?
____________________________________________________________

Since it is based on a true story why is this a problem?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Winslow_Boy

reply

Given the beautiful romantic undertones between Sir Robert and Kate, i don't think guilty or not guilty is the point of the film.

reply

From a legal standpoint, it doesn't actually matter - it is what could be proven against him that counts. The irony is that, because he is an 'innocent' as in, unaware of how he is coming over, a babe in the wood, he is incriminating himself - the lawyer is needed to give him a fair chance of explaining himself. That doesn't make him actually guilty or innocent, although I do think we are supposed to take Sir Robert's vindication of him seriously. It isn't that he 'is' one way or the other, but what he can be proven to be in the eyes of the court. Britain during this period was proud of its 'innocent before proven guilty' justice system. I suspect Sir Robert believes in it as his religion, but he forces the establishment to take those general principles to their logical conclusion - the relatively trivial matter is really a question to the highest courts in the land. 'Can they play fair? Can right be done?' It is extremely difficult, as he admits, to get a verdict that will uphold those principles and yet satisfy the onlooker that the court has done the 'right' thing and not aquitted a guilty man etc - or charged an innocent one.

Of course, that isn't the only point of the play. The point seems to be whether 'justice', the tribal ablution of 'not guilty' in a court of law is really necessary when everyone who knows Ronnie believes in his innocence anyway? The family makes huge sacrifices for the case - Ronnie's father will die from the pursuit of justice. The audience is left to think of all the young men who would soon be forced over the top in the trenches for 'justice' despite the futility of the gesture - who is the demented general figure here, Sir Robert and the father or the naval school for ignoring facts that did not fit their theory?

reply

The irony is that, because he is an 'innocent' as in, unaware of how he is coming over, a babe in the wood, he is incriminating himself - the lawyer is needed to give him a fair chance of explaining himself.

Good point. The fact that Ronnie incriminates himself, is an argument on behalf of his factual innocence. And it shows how easily an innocent (?) person can be mistaken as guilty.

An interesting question is whether Sir Robert believes Ronnie to be guilty or not. I think the point of the interrogation scene is to show that he is convinced of his innocence, when he accepts the brief.

But it is possible that the interrogation scene is a self-staging of Sir Robert in order to convince Catherine of his [questionable] moral integrity; to convince her that he wouldn't accept the brief, if he believed that Ronnie is guilty.

The point seems to be whether 'justice', the tribal ablution of 'not guilty' in a court of law is really necessary when everyone who knows Ronnie believes in his innocence anyway?

I agree. I guess the main point of Ronnie's indifferent reaction in the end is not to suggest that he was guilty, but to show that he doesn't care all that much about the verdict. It is his father's, Catherine's and Sir Robert's "war" for "justice".

However, I am not sure if we are supposed to see those who fight for justice as demented figures. After all Catherine fights with the same incorruptible spirit for another "lost cause" – women's suffrage. A few years later it became reality. It is one of the punchlines in the end that the audience knows that Sir Robert is wrong, when he calls it a "lost cause". Just as much of a "lost cause" as the romance between the two.

reply

This movie is of course based on the famous case of Cadet George Archer-Shee who was accused of stealing a postal order from another cadet and then cashing it - this was on 7th October 1908. After a public trial the boy was exonerated. He enlisted in the Army in August 1914 and at the end of October was killed at the second battle of Ypres (Oct. 31 1914). He was 19 years old. I think he can be given the benefit of the doubt therefore.

reply

I know... the implied death toll at the end of this film is actually pretty high, and it does come from this high sense of moral and public duty. Although no-one is dead yet, we kind of know Dickie and John by enlisting so early will have pretty much signed their own death warrants, young Ronnie will be like all those other public schoolboys who lost their lives on the Somme and at Ypres, and the shock, coming so soon after the case will kill Arthur and probably Mrs Winslow as well. Even Sir Robert looks like he is heading for a potential nervous breakdown (the real Edward Carson did suffer from regular bouts of 'neurasthenia' or depression).

reply

His reaction was a bit flat. But he'd been through so much that he would have been emotionally exhausted.

reply