MovieChat Forums > Joan of Arc (1999) Discussion > why are they portraying the english badl...

why are they portraying the english badly.


I'm sorry to say, I have nothing against you guys okay.......

But I hate it when people put the English down in any situaion, I know there is a chance years ago various englishmen where cruel.....brutal even.
But today films made my directors across the sea seem to be constantly taking legends then twisting them into 'Hate the English'films. It seems to happen in sitcoms as well.

Only yesterday I was watching one of my favourite shows on ABC 1 'Home Improvement.' And I was shocked when the main character came out with a term
'But it's British -they cook kittens in pies for Godsake!' My Dad just stared at the screen horrifed.

Film, e.g 'Braveheart, paitriot.......... altermate Anti-English films.'Nice the way the film was done but again it stirs up my point.

(sorry, sorry, sorry - America or france don't hate me)


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This is a French film, not an American film. The French and English have bad-mouthed each other for 1,000 years.

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Like the poster said above, this film is French.

Check your facts first please.

GOB, "Those aren't cops. Look at how HOT they are!!"

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You wrote: "The French and English have bad-mouthed each other for 1,000 years."

That was so in the past no doubt. But nowadays, in my experience anyway, the English do indeed still bad-mouth the French, but the French no longer bad-mouth the English. Mainly because they don't really register what the British think (they couldn't care less).

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The french consistantly bad mouth the English. Even their *beep* President managed it not so long ago.

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I am English and know our humour usually involves bad mouthing everyone, even those we like (we certainly bad mouth ourselves as well!. It is to be expected that Britain's former rival for centuries will sometimes be the subject of this. I know for a fact that many French bad mouth us too. Usually neither the French or English will take it too seriously.

The film is about a time when England ruled part of France. This was no invasion for hate's sake but due to the fact that English monarchs were married with French rulers, setting the stage for claims. Keep in mind just a few centuries before this the film the French had invaded England brutally and replaced it's ruling class with their own, adding lots of French and Latin to a perfectly decent Germanic language and setting the scene for English rulers to become involved with Continental rivalries. Medieval history is bloody rivalry and ambition and no one is particularly to blame.

I do feel there is a strong anti-British streak in some Hollywood films, but have never felt any strong hate from French film makers towards us. Despite the fact we have more regional cheese and their top chefs now rate our food as good some French continue to look down on us as uncultured barbarians but most of us don't really care. Europeans are not a bloc, they have different cultures and ethnic groups and some negative views and arrogance is to be expected.

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Keep in mind just a few centuries before this the film the French had invaded England brutally and replaced it's ruling class with their own, adding lots of French and Latin to a perfectly decent Germanic language and setting the scene for English rulers to become involved with Continental rivalries.


It's a little more complicated than that.

Technically, the French did not invade England in 1066. The Normans were the ones who did that. Yes, the Normans came from lands that are now part of the modern nation state of France, but at the time there was the Kingdom of France and the Duchy of Normandy. The Kingdom of France played no part whatsoever in the invasion and were, not too long prior to the event victim to their own Norman take over of some of their territory; the Normans began settling in northern France during the 800s and in 911 Rollo attacked Paris, which despite ending in victory for the Franks, led to the King of France signing a treaty that officially granted Rollo territory within modern day Normandy in exchange for their protection against new invasions from other vikings. This was when the Duchy of Normandy was founded and became distinct from the Frankish Kingdom.

Although Rollo agreed to vassalage, Normandy expanded its borders further into France through a series of conquests in the 920s and 930s, leading to the then king of France officially ceding more territory to the then Norman king. Subsequent conquests in the early 1000s expanded Normandy's westward borders and, of course, in 1066 they attacked England.

Since they had adopted the French language they brought it with them to England and so they ushered in that famous period where the elites spoke and wrote in French. They also intermingled with the Frankish population and they ruled over native Franks who made up part of their army. However, that doesn't mean they and the French were one in the same, that means that they were colonizers who did the things that colonizers tend to do, just as they were colonizers of England.

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I don't think the English who were brutalised and terrorised in their own land and who watched their mostly inward culture than minded it's own business really cared that it was the Bastard Duke of Normandy and his mercenaries who invaded not the French King's men...they came speaking French, with French customs and ideas from France. If they came from Prussia they would be Germans. If they came from Galicia they would be Spanish. Culturally French people invaded England and that's the end of it - an invasion that sparked England's latter interference in continental affairs. What business would a Saxon King have in France aside from trade if the Saxon's had held their sheild wall for just another hour in 1066? I can only think of vengeance and to secure England from yet another Norman French invasion later on.

We can probably argue that it was the Normans who invaded France then centuries later, not the English since it was Normans who took over England and created the culture of continental rivalries and French/Latin elitist snobbery that still dominates the English language.

That said the genetic impact on Britain of the Norman invasion is almost zero - aside from a few ruling families (who still rule over the English) they didn't change the actual ethnic make up at all. Even the Vikings had more impact than the Normans.

N.

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Another interesting and informative comment, I'm not so familiar with the history of the Normans so it's fascinating what you say here, and to be fair you make a good argument. It was never clear to me in school exactly why the Normans invaded England to begin with, didn't it have something to do with a dynasty dispute after Edward Confessor? Since he had no kids of his own, Harold claimed the throne but William did too, something about Edward growing up in Normandy and promising it to William? But still unclear why a whole-sale invasion came out of it it, though I guess in the medieval period the people as a whole were pawns in those dynasty struggles.

"cared that it was the Bastard Duke of Normandy and his mercenaries who invaded not the French King's men...they came speaking French, with French customs and ideas from France. "
Such an irony in alot of ways, the Normans were descended from Vikings and married the Franks who were a Germanic tribe, but in 1066 where were speaking.. French, a Romance language. Weird, like Vikings forcing French onto their English cousins. I guess the Viking Normans liked the Frankish women so much they just "went native" themselves or something.

"We can probably argue that it was the Normans who invaded France then centuries later, not the English since it was Normans who took over England and created the culture of continental rivalries and French/Latin elitist snobbery that still dominates the English language.

That said the genetic impact on Britain of the Norman invasion is almost zero - aside from a few ruling families (who still rule over the English) they didn't change the actual ethnic make up at all. Even the Vikings had more impact than the Normans. "

That's really interesting too, I'd heard that. That something like only a couple hundred Normans ever really settled in England, the rest of the soldiers in William's army were mainly just Dutch mercenaries who got their money and went back home, or fellow Normans who went back home for their own reasons. And the Normans themselves were mainly Vikings anyway. I'm not even so sure about the language impact, sure the nobility in England spoke French for two centuries, but that was common throughout a lot of places in Europe, French was so "genteel". I don't really know Russian, German or Dutch that well, but the bits I've picked up or read in lit classes, seems like for some reason they snagged a lot of French words for some reason too. Still do today to try to appear snobbish and high class I guess.

But that's true, without the Normans and their confused claims in England on the continent, there's probably no reason England would have gone to war in the 100 years war. Weird in a way, it's like a mirror image of the Viking Normans "going native" in France earlier with Rollo. By the 100 years war a couple centuries later, the Norman invaders in England began "going native" too and adopted English identity and customs, plus they were so outnumbered by the English, yet they only got involved in France because of those old dumb dynastic battles that William the Conqueror cared about it. In fact, didn't William of Normandy himself get killed in a battle against a French opponent, like a hint of the later 100 years war fighting?

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@ prakashsant7:

"the rest of the soldiers in William's army were mainly just Dutch mercenaries who got their money and went back home, or fellow Normans who went back home for their own reasons. "

There were soldiers/mercenaries from several European places (Dutch, German, French, Bretons) besides Normands.


"And the Normans themselves were mainly Vikings anyway."

150 years earlier, yes (that's like 7 generations). They were granted the dukedom of Normandy in 911 AD.


"I'm not even so sure about the language impact, sure the nobility in England spoke French for two centuries, "

The impact was huge (about 50% of the vocabulary came from old French, modern French and Latin borrowed and changed on the French model) and in modern time the English languages still borrowed many words and expressions from French (examples of "recent" French expressions in English: "à la", "en masse", "carte blanche", "nom-de-plume", "au contraire", "coup d'état", "en route", etc...).
Not only French was the official language of the English court for more than 200 yrs, but a king like Richard Lionheart (from a French dynasty, the Plantagenet (Angevins)) didn't know any english words (or maybe very few), he only could speak French.

The huge impact of the French language on the English language came from the conquest by the Duke of Normandy in 1066 but you can also add the Angevin dynasty named the Plantagenet (a French dynasty that ruled England), and the cultural dominance of France in Europe that lasted quite a while (during middle-ages but also from 17th c. to roughly early 20th c.).

In fact, the fact that many (most?) of the military terms in English are from the French language comes from the time when France was the dominant military power in Europe and was at the lead of military innovations (last half of the 17th century then the revolutionary/Napoleonic era).

BTW, the motto of the English monarchy is still in French nowadays ("Dieu et mon droit") - the Dutch monarchy too ("Je maintiendrai"), because of a different dynasty though.


"but that was common throughout a lot of places in Europe, French was so "genteel". I don't really know Russian, German or Dutch that well, but the bits I've picked up or read in lit classes, seems like for some reason they snagged a lot of French words for some reason too. Still do today to try to appear snobbish and high class I guess."

Many European languages have borrowed a lot to French because this nation had been culturally dominant in Europe several times. During a big part of the middle-ages and roughly from the 17th c. to the early 20th c.. In fact French became the language spoken in some foreign court like in Russia or Poland, at some point. French was the language of diplomacy and a lingua FRANCa (now, only Vatican (papacy) uses French as its official diplomatical language IIRC, besides the French-speaking countries) and was spoken by most cultured educated European peoples during several centuries, with lasting effects.

[ (French dynasties came to rule for a while in different places like the crusader states in the near-east (named outremer; which is logical since the first crusade was largely a French thing, even started by a French pope), in Constantinople (Latin Empire), south Italy and Sicily (originally via Normand dynasties then via Angevins, like in England), Hungary, Poland, Sweden (with the current Bernadotte dynasty), Spain, Portugal (a kingdom which was founded by a knight that was a descendant of an early Capetian French king), Brazil as Emperor, etc...) ]

For instance, the Scandinavians (that borrowed a lot to French too, like the Germans and the Dutch) are saying each other "good bye" with a French word, "adieu" (adjø (Denmark, Norway) and adjö (Sweden)).

As for the Russian language, which is yet on the other side of europe, it is full of French words.

It goes beyond Europe though:

e.g. (among other examples) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_French_loanwords_in_Persian

There are also French words in Japanese too, etc...


"But that's true, without the Normans and their confused claims in England on the continent"

Confused claims? The English king had promised the crown to William, the Duke of Normandy.

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Very interesting and informative comment, I hadn't realized the history of the Normand and the way they had terrified the French themselves like that. Odd in a sense that they were basically Vikings who spoke French but still remained Vikings in critical ways. And I guess were eventually assimilated into English culture themselves.

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do you have any idea how much crap the French take in North America for no reason? freedom fries? freedom toast? pouring wine in the streets because it's French, hell where i live, the word French is almost used as an insult, and that disgusts me. i have never once heard "british" used as a derogatory slur.

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And if you do let me know and I'll knock his block OFF, mate!!

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We were out of line with the movie “The Patriot” and that is really embarrassing, jeez we made you guys look like Nazis and you were just trying to keep your colony, all those cities and infrastructure, did the Native Americans make it? No it was the British and how do we thank you, revolution.
But come on man, the movie “the Messanger” is like middle ages, people would put heads on pikes and you could get burned at the stake. This movie was not “I don’t like british,” it was “hay look, the middle ages” dirty poor brutal, and someone had to be the bad guy.
P.S. is the kitten pie thing true?

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sulloa--what you've espoused is called treason. Revisionist historians are not welcomed here. Actually the Greeks and Romans were responsible for all civility today, but where that civility is anymore is the question with people like you (apologists who apparently would have given every secret away to the most evil people). Sad little commentary on you and the people to the left of what's good about this world.

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Because this film is from the french / Joan of Arc's point of view

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[deleted]

Movies like Braveheart and the Patriot, well it portrayed the english as the were.

How ever, thats not to say no one else was anybetter.

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The french throne was entitled by heredity to an english king, the french were just too *beep* arrogant to let someone else rule. so, they decided they'd let two thirds of the population be slaughtered. the french were the bad guys. sure, the english invaded, but a hundred years before the war they took english lands in mainland europe by force. just because the english wanted what was theirs they are evil? lol. okay.

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ok saying that the French throne belongs to England because of William I of Normandy is a joke. He left and went to England, I think he made his choice. The English didnt have proper claim to the throne. sorry.

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Charles, the "dauphin" made king with Joan's help, had been disinherited by his Father (King Charles VI of France) in the Treaty of Troyes. Henry V of England was the legitimate ruler of France according to the French king Charles VI who signed over this right in that treaty with the marriage of his daughter Catherine to Henry.

His disinherited son (the Dauphin) and the faction around him defied his Father's will and claimed the throne. Joan's early death had as much to do with her support of an unscrupulous royal usurper who left her stranded in jail, as anything else.

Given that both Henry V and Charles were royal cousins, this wasn't even about true French ancestry. If anyone had a legitimate right to rule France it was Henry V. His and Catherine's son, Henry VI, had as distinguished a French ancestry as any later king of France.

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[deleted]

The said Treaty was no more than a case of the English whupping the army raised by the French king, and the semi-mad king had no choice but yielding to Henry V. It was winner-take-all world. Therefore, the dauphin still had legitimacy in reclaiming the throne, as he was named the future king at one point in time, and did nothing wrong to lose his inheritance.

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VERY convoluted argument, considering the fact that treaties usually involve incentives and breaking these legal agreements, by definition, is always illegitimate.

Charles was a piece of work. Prior to the treaty, he had arranged a peaceful meeting in order to reconcile with his cousin John the Fearless. His men attacked and killed his cousin at that meeting. Also prior to the treaty, BOTH his parents disowned him as illegitimate, claiming that he was the result of one of his Mother's many extramarital affairs. When the imprisoned Joan needed him most, he left her with no ransom and the Poitiers document she wanted as a defense suddenly disappeared. Apparently, Charles was more worried about being seen as supporting a crackpot than he was of abandoning G-d's "true" champion.

Not only was it inconceivable that the Christian G-d, defined by Jesus as representing a heavenly kingdom separate from earthly kingdoms, would give prominence to earthly politics, but it was also inconceivable that a true prophet of G-d would make false claims. It wasn't until a generation after Joan's death that the English were finally driven out of France.

If anyone in France who knew her well believed Joan was more than a sincere but deluded Christian while she was alive, it wasn't her Father, her brothers, her king, or her compatriots in battle. All of them let her rot while she was alive. Far from fearing G-d, they used the superstitious faith she engendered while it helped them and distanced themselves from her when it didn't.

It wasn't until she became useful as a symbol cleaning up Charles' image and the newly free France, that Charles supported a whitewash of her past. It was only then, a generation after her death when there was profit in being associated with her, that all kinds of people came out claiming miracles and that they were Joan's best friends when she was alive.

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All of humanity is built on bloodshed. The fact is, Britain is a deeply liberal country and put up with a lot of accusations of villainy and brutality - even in their own films, they are always willing to show the negatives in their own society, contrary to the French who very rarely do (La Haine springs to mind as an obvious example of honest self-examination). A lot of other nations like to gloss over the bloodshed, especially the nations that are spiteful toward the British. Former colonies, France, etc - all of them have much to be ashamed of, but it's easier to scapegoat a declining force in the world.

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The Romans? What did they ever do for us?

SpiltPersonality

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Are you seriously that dumb?

The Romans set many milestones in logistics, combat and infrastructure. They brought the technology of the lands they conquered together and perfected it.

Their accomplishments are a big part of why cities look the way they do today.

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Are you seriously that ignorant of popular culture? It was a paraphrased quote from the Life of Brian http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso.

If you watch the link you'll find that I actually was saying 'in a roundabout way' that the Romans have done a great deal for us.

No, I'm not 'seriously that dumb'. I'm smart enough to realize that if I don't understand what someone is saying that I'll make sure I do before I insinuate that they are dumb.

Actually, I just had a look at your post history, and you've not posted on ANY movies made earlier than 1999 (and on a few actresses) and that make me suspect that you are very young. It's ok to be young, but don't assume that because you are ignorant that the rest of the world is. Just because you don't understand half of what Richard Hawkins is saying doesn't mean that he's dumb.

Have a good day.

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uhm, the British were exactly like the Nazis in their colonial past..
The first concentration camps were built by the british in the Boer Wars..

The brits were brutal bastards in every colony they had... as most colonial powers are....

and if you think that we live in more compassionate and civil times, you only need to be reminded that the Boer wars were only over a 100 years ago, that the greatest wars in history(in terms of blood spilled were within our grandfathers lifetimes, that the brutality of Yugoslavian and Rwandan wars were less than 20 years ago, and the current bloodshed in the middle east, and our own concentration/torture camps are currently running in full gear....

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Wrong, the first concentration camps were built by AMERICA.
As for the rest of your 'analysis', nothing more than outright lies. Let me ask you a simple question; if the Britis were so bad why did every previous colony immediately sign up to be in the Commonwealth?
No, the British spread democracy, modern infrastructure, schools and hospitals, around the world and the thanks they get from Hollywood? "Oh, they were nazi's', DISGRACEFUL.

The problem with us is that we won't accept that our so-called 'revolution' wasn't about 'freedom and democracy', colonial Americans were already the freest people with the highest standard of living in the world, even more so than the Brits who paid for it in their taxes. No, what is was was a land and power grab and we've had terrible karma ever since.

I choose to believe what my religion programs me to believe.

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"P.S. is the kitten pie thing true?"

No, we deep fry kittens and serve them with chips.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118604/board/nest/45170697?d=124482056#50057239

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sulloa:

OT, yes I know.

PS...You do not want to know.

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Lol freedom fries.. I remember that fiasco. Fries aren't even French. They're Belgian.

Did you ever notice that people who believe in creationism look realy un-evolved? - Bill Hicks

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actually I heard somewhere that fries were originally invented in Florence, Italy...maybe they should have changed the name to Florence Fries...

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that's cute but the name french fries originally comes from the old english verb 'to french' that means to cut into slices. Not because they are French!! (it is the same with the french toast! besides why the hell would we invent these toasts, when we already have the BAGUETTE which is AWESOME)

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That lasted MAYBE a month, and then everybody realized how stupid they were all being.

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[deleted]

You forgot about Freedom Bulldogs. =)

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Now, call me crazy, but I thought that Mel Gibson was sort of an Australian who just happened to live and become a celebrity in America when he went on to direct "Braveheart". That, and the director of "the Patriot" (again, starring that British-oppressed Australian, Mel Gibson) was Roland Emmerich, a German director. The question of "kitten pie" is confusion over "kidney pie", and another Australian, Yahoo Serious, addresses this point of alleged British cuisine in his film, "Young Einstein". Admittedly, all of the original Imperial villains in "Star Wars" (well, except for the 'highly forgettable' James Earl Jones!) spoke with a British accent, but this was because Lucas recruited much of his cast from England. One might notice that some of his heroes also spoke with an English accent, or are Alec Guiness and Ewan MacGregor so quickly forgotten? If anything, the Americans love the Brits as sidekicks (Eddie Izzard has a funny bit of standup about this as it relates to Steve McQueen and "the Great Escape") - or as our primary heroes with the Americans as sidekicks. You may have noticed the recent popularity of 50's writer Ian Fleming's work over here... It is amazing how many of James Bond's adventures manage to take place in America or in defeating America's enemies, given that he is a British agent.

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[deleted]

Wrong.

Mel's mother was Irish. The family moved to Australia when he was 12, so I don't think Mel was worried about the draft or had anything to do with the decision.

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[deleted]

why is it such a big deal, its a joke, every culture gets made fun of, whether its about kitten pies or canadians all living in igloos. every culture gets hit with stereotypes, just because the english are mocked for bad teeth and the love for tea, doesnt mean you should get too offended

just take things with a lighter approach

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Well said, Christina. And thanks for standing up for us, Luv! We love you!!

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[deleted]

There's nothing wrong with a little gentle ribbing as long as it doesn't turn into racism but I don't think in movies it ever does. English jokes in American films are usually funny and American jokes in English films are also cool. We all need to learn to be a little less uptight. On the point about JOAN OF ARC being very anti-English, I'm English myself but I have to admit that in the true story of St Joan the English did behave rather appallingly. It's not just the film maker's bias. It's historical fact.

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Well, that was incoherent.

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[deleted]

Slave trade, much?

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Wow...I love how people in the UK are so quick to talk *beep* about us "yanks." So quick, they forgot to get their facts straight and not realize THIS IS A FRENCH MOVIE!!!!! HAHAHAHAHA!

"Great job, Robocop. Another case solved here."

link: http://www.myspace.com/pkgangsta18

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Hmmm,"freedom fries, freedom toast", I do like free freedom stuffs, like French Fries, French Toast, NTM French kiss ;P
Je parle un peu francaise. ;)

BTW, this is a French movie of Luc Besson, yet mostly spoken in English, with few Latin(by Dustin at the last). Don't forget "The Fifth Element' is a french film too, also by luc besson.

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[deleted]