MovieChat Forums > Spider-Man (2002) Discussion > WHY did MJ reject Harry's kiss? Did she ...

WHY did MJ reject Harry's kiss? Did she not actually like dating him????


When Harry and MJ are on the balcony just before Goblin makes his first attack in Times Square Harry leans in to kiss MJ but she just turns her head away. Why?

HARRY: MJ why didn't you wear the black dress? My father loves black and I wanted you to impress him.
MJ: Maybe he'll like me in this dress. You think I'm pretty.
HARRY: I think you're beautiful....(leans in to kiss)
MJ: (Turns her head...CRASH)

If you watch the film, MJ doesn't seem upset about Harry's request for the black dress or anything.

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Yeah, I noticed that. She was dating him but she didn't seem that interested. Then again, she dated Flash too. I think she lived by the mantra "people accept the love they think they deserve" (from "The Perks of Being a Wallflower") So she dated guys who were bad for her, maybe because she didn't want to be alone?
At first I was going to say she loved Spider-Man by then but that was the first time he saved her, on the balcony...

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she lived by the mantra "people accept the love they think they deserve"


this is exactly it. also the film showed she grew up in an abusive home which contributes to her need to find validation from other people instead of from within herself. whereas MJ from the comics also grew up in an abusive home, the character dealt with it by means of presenting herself as a one dimensional party girl, and selfishly running away from long term relationships by hurting other people so that she wouldn't end up being hurt herself.

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... the film showed she grew up in an abusive home ...

... MJ from the comics also grew up in an abusive home ...
Regarding both your quotes above, can you be more specific, and give examples for both cases?


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"There's a lot of RAGE inside me about it". ~ Austin Matelson

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Sure.

I believe the graphic novel Parallel Lives and the Gerry Conway arcs of The Amazing Spider-Man comics circa the 1970s gives a look into Mary Jane's past and her dealing with her failed writer turned alcoholic father. She has an older sister in the comics named Gayle that barely makes appearances but along with her mother had suffered physical and verbal abuse from the father.

The straw that broke the camel's back is when the father struck Gayle due to the cost of her dancing lessons which causes Mrs. Watson to separate from her husband and take MJ and Gayle with her to live with relatives. The way this version of Mary Jane copes with her broken home life is adapting a party girl and fun persona in order to quickly make friends. When her older sister becomes pregnant at 19, MJ notices that her sister's boyfriend is just like their father and this causes MJ to distance herself from her family causing them to look at her as if she was selfish and shallow when in reality she didn't want to be tied down to any relationships that would repeat the cycle thus making her helpless and trapped just like her sibling and mother. This attitude in MJ has caused her to run away from relationships that turn serious and later on turning down Peter's proposals to her on several occasions.

In the film, while it is shown that MJ is verbally abused in the first Spider-Man, the character deals with it somewhat differently than her comic book counterpart. Whereas the comic book MJ decided to only care about herself and constantly breaks hearts that make her come off as selfish and flaky to her friends, the film version of MJ seeks the love and confidence that she's missing through her personal relationships. Her father issues make her more likely to go out with the next guy that showers her with attention and affection as seen when she dated Harry and then later John Jameson only for her to discover that a relationship doesn't fix her self esteem or personal validation

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I don't mean to be nit picky but here's my exact post:

... the film showed she grew up in an abusive home ...

... MJ from the comics also grew up in an abusive home ...

Regarding both your quotes above, can you be more specific, and give examples for both cases?
Around 70% of your answer addresses the novel you mention, and 30% addresses (my question) the film or comics which is this part of your answer:
In the film, while it is shown that MJ is verbally abused in the first Spider-Man, the character deals with it somewhat differently than her comic book counterpart. Whereas the comic book MJ decided to only care about herself and constantly breaks hearts that make her come off as selfish and flaky to her friends, the film version of MJ seeks the love and confidence that she's missing through her personal relationships. Her father issues make her more likely to go out with the next guy that showers her with attention and affection as seen when she dated Harry and then later John Jameson only for her to discover that a relationship doesn't fix her self esteem or personal validation
Regarding the film, based on what is depicted in only 2 short scenes, how does some occasional shouting in the household constitute "growing up in an abusive home"?

And, regarding the comics, how does much of what you write, and the examples you give, constitute "growing up in an abusive home"?


Doesn't the concept or definition of "domestic abuse" include reprehensible things like regular beatings, unlawful confinement, sexual impropriety, forced starvation, etc?


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"There's a lot of RAGE inside me about it". ~ Austin Matelson

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Regarding the film, based on what is depicted in only 2 short scenes, how does some occasional shouting in the household constitute "growing up in an abusive home"?

And, regarding the comics, how does much of what you write, and the examples you give, constitute "growing up in an abusive home"?

Doesn't the concept or definition of "domestic abuse" include reprehensible things like regular beatings, unlawful confinement, sexual impropriety, forced starvation, etc?



interesting questions. i don't know if i can answer them because the definition of abuse is tricky and is different in each situation but i'll try.


domestic abuse doesn't have to be physical at all to be considered abuse actually. You can abuse someone without so much as lifting a finger or causing physical harm to them. You don't even have to yell at someone to abuse them either. Guilt tripping someone into staying in a relationship is a form of emotional abuse for example.

Verbal abuse is described as a negative defining statement told to the victim or about the victim, or by withholding any response, thereby defining the target as non-existent.

Psychological abuse, also referred to as psychological violence, emotional abuse or mental abuse, is a form of abuse characterized by a person subjecting or exposing another to behavior that may result in psychological trauma, including anxiety, chronic depression, or post-traumatic stress disorder.

So in the first Spider-Man film, Peter witnesses MJ walk out of her house with her dad following her and yelling "you're trash. you're always going to be trash just like her." it's a form of verbal bullying from her parent no less and one can infer that since she lives with this parent she's exposed to it quite often. Since the film focuses on Peter, it only shows the viewer what he sees of MJ and from his perspective.

In a later scene Peter also witnesses her and her parents fighting when he takes out the trash to which she exits her house emotionally distraught. So the film's first few introductions to her that offer a much longer glimpse into who she is as a person is through Peter's eyes where she's seen escaping her father's bullying on her way to school and later escaping her parents screaming at each other while at home. She doesn't seem to be in a mentally healthy household with that much hostility happening in her personal home life the 2 out of 3 times Peter sees her when she's not at school.

It's been a while since I've watched this film but I believe in the beginning of the conversation exchanged between Peter and MJ he tries to tell her that his aunt and uncle get into fights sometimes as well to which MJ implies fights happen a lot more often at her house than normal by changing the subject.

A deleted scene in the extended version of the sequel confirms MJ's emotional abuse at the hands of her father when she expresses to her friend that by getting married to John Jameson she's proving her father wrong about his claims that no one would ever love her to which her friend tries to talk some sense into her about marrying someone she actually loves and not someone for validation. As an adult the emotional damage inflicted by her father has already been done and set in stone and it also dictates the way she handles relationships.

Regarding the comics and in real life I suppose as well, the way a person deals with witnessing abuse at home whether being the victim or living with it manifests in different ways. You're right that getting hit and yelled at is not necessarily abuse if it's a one time thing but if it occurs on a somewhat regular and repetitive basis AND if there's genuine anger behind the person who is inflicting it..then it is. Sometimes it's the intention behind an action.

Anyway in the comics MJ presented herself to her friends as a carefree party girl who ran away from relationships. The comics focused on her being fun and almost empty-headed at times. Peter eventually found it tiring after a while and insults her as shallow and as someone who 'wouldn't even cry if her own mother died' after the death of Gwen Stacy. Instead of running away MJ decides to stay with Peter as he mourns the death of his girlfriend which showed readers at the time there was a lot more to her then she let on. The comic eventually revealed MJ's home life and why she created an outward persona of a cool chic that didn't want to settle down or get married due to her shielding herself from the abuse that she was witnessing to her mother and sister at the hands of her father at home.

In the first spider-man as well MJ acted differently with her friends at school then she did when it was just her and Peter when no one else was around.

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Doesn't the concept or definition of "domestic abuse" include reprehensible things like regular beatings, unlawful confinement, sexual impropriety, forced starvation, etc?


The problem with emotional abuse is that it is often not viewed as a serious issue. So while, yes, a lot of everyday people do define domestic abuse in terms of the "more serious" forms of abuse, that view leads it to be overlooked by people and makes it harder for people to get help. You can sit around and put all these issues on a scale of worst to least worst if you want, but however you wish to view them, at the end of the day, emotional abuse is a form of domestic abuse* that does have serious ramifications. Emotional abuse goes after one's sense of self-worth so such a person is inclined to see themselves as undeserving of love or affection.

If you look closely at MJ's character you can see that we're talking about more than just "occasional shouting." What we saw was an overt attack on her self-esteem by an emotionally distant father, which seemed (based on her conversation with Peter) to be a regularly occurring issue. You can then see the affects of that kind of treatment through her initial choice in men (Flash is obvious and Harry was someone who [unintentionally] made her feel that she didn't measure up, which reaffirmed her poor self image) and the desire to look for validation from others. That seemed to play a role in her career choice and you can see the kind of affect that Peter's positive reinforcement had on her. It was as if that was the first time she heard anything like that.

*Mind you, of course, that part of the problem also is that there are two "definitions" of domestic abuse. There's a definition as it applies to prosecutable matters and as it applies to forms of abuse that happen in a domestic setting. Although what MJ had to deal with isn't considered something that the father can be prosecuted for, it is something that, from a psychological standpoint, does warrant some form of intervention. That might mean involving social services or encouraging people in their lives to try to convince the father to seek professional help for him and his daughter or it might affect custody issues if it ever came to that.

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I know abuse - in any manner, shape, or form - is a heinous, serious, issue. This is the reason for my posts on this thread.

Because abuse is in fact - in any manner, shape, or form - a serious issue, I'm trying to understand why some viewers or readers regard Mary Jane's upbringing as abusive based on two scenes from a movie, or from the comics, and applying it as a foundation for her behavior & dating, and how & why exactly, they come to this conclusion.

I'm also wondering if this in itself downplays or minimizes the serious topic of abuse. Based on a movie, and comics, folks might be projecting a false pretense on a very serious topic, and taking it even further.

Mary Jane's father is depicted as a$$wipe but she seems to be able to deal, handle, and manage him quite effectively.


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"There's a lot of RAGE inside me about it". ~ Austin Matelson

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I'm trying to understand why some viewers or readers regard Mary Jane's upbringing as abusive based on two scenes from a movie, or from the comics, and applying it as a foundation for her behavior & dating, and how & why exactly, they come to this conclusion.


It pretty much is confirmed MJ deals with emotional abuse at home in official materials that are released for Spider-Man but even without this knowledge when I watched this movie at 14 I could see that MJ had a crappy home life and it affected the way she formed personal relationships in the film. She also clearly had low self esteem issues in all three movies which further validates the emotional damage she suffered from being in a household where her father tells her that she is worthless. Also normal people who grow up without abuse in the homes don't fall into relationships that all end poorly repeatedly and don't have self esteem issues as bad as MJ's. We all have problems but most problems can be traced back to problems you deal with as a kid.

Mary Jane's father is depicted as a$$wipe but she seems to be able to deal, handle, and manage him quite effectively.


I guess you would just have to understand how abuse works. As someone who has suffered emotional abuse at the hands of my parent, it's not like your parent is going to be like that 24/7. Sometimes they're great parents and in other moments they're calling you a piece of sh*t. It's complicated and it's human.

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[deleted]

Watch this deleted scene. Raimi was dumb to cut it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWg5bGY3jz8

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I don't think it's that dumb he cut it considering that woman she's talking to there doesn't even appear at all in the whole rest of the movie. But it does show MJ was making the wrong decisions based on resentment from her father.

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Same.

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Perhaps the moment wasn't right, or she was just on a pity date with him or something. Personally, I always took it as Harry moving too fast.

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That's my take as well. It seemed to be their first date. Harry likely wanted to impress his father and decided to move in for a smooch. It was too fast and a bit awkward.

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I think it has a lot to do with emotional connection as well. When she asked him if he thought she was pretty, I think it was a challenge more than a question. She was asking him to look deeper, to see if there was anything beyond looks that he was interested in, and he failed, before and after answering that question. Which is why she goes for Peter over Spiderman. Physical attraction is okay, but the movie actually tried to paint her as a whole person, not just a damsel.

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