Hands up if you think they should've killed Duncan off at the end and kept Connor.
shareI think this was supposed to be Duncan's movie after the series. I wish they didn't have to kill either but it makes sense this way since its a movie from the series and not from the other movies.
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I thought that it was a pretty stupid idea that either of them had to be 'killed off' to beat Jacob Kell, and I was very disappointed that it happened, as I thought that they were really going to team up (as the movie's headliners had said they would) to fight Kell. I felt that they should have broken that so-called rule that no other immortal is to interfere, since Kell had already broken most of the rules anyway (as had Kane in the previous movie). Also, you wonder who would've been around to enforce these 'rules'. The watchers, except for a few, had all been annihilated-by Kell-and so the 'game' had changed dramatically. I often felt they'd have a much better chance dispatching Kell quickly if they did it together.
: )
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It was a bad idea to kill Connor but it looked that the producers wanted to continue the series with Duncan.
Its that man again!!
"It was a bad idea to kill Connor but it looked that the producers wanted to continue the series with Duncan"
If only they would have, but they ruined it with the Source in terms of continuing it.
I so wish they woudl have given Adrian Paul a decent theatrical chance with a Highlander movie. The reboot seems to be stalled too.
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I always liked Duncan more so I liked how that went down in Endgame
shareWell, I agree that when watching this movie, Connor is clearly the more interesting character. But I don't think Duncan should have been killed.
The movie should not have been a continuation of the series or the movies as long as they wanted both Connor and Duncan on the screen. It should have been a series of flashbacks of Connor and Duncan kicking ass on an adventure tracking an evil Immortal through the centuries. It should have all been set before 1985. Duncan could have been the hero after being mentored by Connor through the centuries. It would have made sense with the storyline of the TV show, and it would have made sense with the plot of the original movie. It would have done justice to both characters without having to make up reasons why Connor is really not the last Immortal. Any movie that was simply continuing the series storyline should have left Connor out of it. Just my 2ยข....
"Don't conform, be like us...."
Connor is the more interesting character because the plot of this film revolves around his character despite the limited screen time.
it would have been great if the film started in the present day and then became flashback after flashback in each time period. showing the two immortals meeting every 100 years or whatever as they continually encounter the same evil immortal that manages to escape them both. then in present day have it all come to an end.
no need to have it be before 1985 since the series already establishes Connor as merely defeating the Kurgan in 1986 and the neverending fight continues on through the 1990s. so that first film is already re-iterated into continuity.
well the point of Endgame was to end the story of Connor MacLeod since he was the last thread of the grand story that had been absent for the duration of the tv series. without him there would have been no movie. because the whole idea behind doing a 4th film was to have both Highlanders on the big screen.
the series finale had put an end on Duncan MacLeod's story as he walks off into the mist. Endgame as it was originally titled was The Search for Connor. to bring Duncan back to find Connor and give us only one lead Highlander.
If you assume that all Highlander fans had watched the TV series and accepted the fact that the Gathering was just a joke in the original movie, your idea would make sense.
But, at the time, there were many fans of the original film who had never seen the series, and many fans of the series who had never seen the original film. The way the movie was made simply disregarded fans who had only seen the movies right off the bat. Making this an adventure that takes place before the original movie avoids all those problems, and it was an opportunity to make a film all fans of Highlander could enjoy. I don't know why this wasn't considered. It could have given a significant boost to the Highlander franchise if successful. Instead, it alienated nearly half of its guaranteed fanbase and failed to attract many new viewers to it....
"Don't conform, be like us...."
well no. cause this film was marketed to fans of both. but remember that the tv series was what made Highlander a household name. its the tv series that became the international hit show all over the world. the original movie was great but it didnt achieve the success that the tv show had in the 90s.
Endgame was marketed as a continuation of the tv series with the title character being Adrian Paul. in all the interviews that were done from Adrian Paul, Jim Brynes and others before and during promotion, the film was to continue where the show left off.that much was established. in the press the film was labeled the same very early on. that it would continue the adventures of Duncan MacLeod with the return of Connor MacLeod.
so fans of the show knew what they were in for.
the producers and director tried to pace the film in a way that non-Highlander fans who werent familair with the mythology, could still watch and enjoy the film. for the most part that is true but of course you lose the drama and the legacy behind the characters if you come in completely blank.
to make the film take place before the original would not work because then that would conflict with the tv series. we would have immortals that didnt know of Watchers, we wouldnt have Joe Dawson.or even the fan favorite of Methos. nor would we have the Sanctuary. to have an evil immortal breaking the rules and then suddenly have someone like The Kurgan still obiding by them..it just takes away so muchfrom the first film.
the tv series already establishes who Connor MacLeod is and his place in the world of the show. a milestone was that he defeated the Kurgan in 1986,that he is Duncan's first mentor, that he faces some very nasty immortals, that The Gathering took place in 1992 & thats why all immortals are showing up as we progress through each episode.
so one would not need to necessarily watch the first film to understand what is going on in the tv series. but again Endgame is more like a 2 part episode of the show rather than a stand-alone feature length film.
if anything viewers watched the show because they enjoyed the original film. by that point in time, the first film is just the backstory on Connor MacLeod.
for someone that has only seen the first film and nothing else... to then attempt to watch any of the sequels is just in for confusion. so i dont blame that on Endgame, because the same can be said about 'The Sorcerer' and 'The Quickening'. neither have a straightforward continuity because the first film had a definite conclusion and was never meant to continue on. if youve only seen the first film, then it'd be quite clear that theres no way to do a sequel. a prequel wouldnt work either because in the end all the new characters that you present would ultimately be killed in the end because only Connor MacLeod could remain. that in itself conflicts with the tv series.
while at the time what was working & what people were immersed in was the continuity of the tv series.so naturally the producers are going to go with that timeline and make a film that follows it.
its possible to just do a one off movie that takes place in some parallel universe where you can have both MacLeods that have neither backstory from the first film or the tv series..but thatd make absolutely no sense when you have a tv show that went 6 seasons and a huge percentage of your fanbase is from that tv show.to establish a character for 6 straight years as well as supporting characters...to then just ignore all that and do a prequel to the first film....not so smart.
I don't think you fully understand what I was trying to say. Let me clarify.
First, I never meant that Endgame should be a one off movie that did not include the backstory of either MacLeod in a parallel universe. I was suggesting that the movie fully explore the development of Connor and Duncan's relationship established in the series. It is hinted that these two have a history that goes back centuries. A movie could have been made that fully explored this and could be completely consistent with both universes. Finally, the original movie could have a decent follow-up, and the TV series would have an awesome movie that went along side it. Arguably, the best scenes in Endgame are the flashbacks that establish Connor and Duncan's relationship. It wouldn't be a "prequel" per se, but an expansion of what was only glimpsed in the movie and the series. We know these two have kicked ass together, and we barely got a glimpse of it in the movie released.
And, the movie was not marketed towards fans of the series. That was the problem. It was mostly marketed as a follow up to the previous films, as the movie was released by Dimension Films, who had done the previous movie. The working titles were even Highlander IV. The first two trailers gave top billing to Christopher Lambert, and focused on Connor, with Duncan being seemingly a secondary character. The final trailer finally gave top-billing to Adrian Paul, and focused a little more on him. This was deceptive to everyone except die-hard fans who knew what was coming. Only websites like Highlander Fan Central promoted this movie as continuation of the series.
And, I don't know where you're from, but Highlander was hardly a popular show here in the US. The final seasons aired new episodes around 1AM or 2AM. Don't get me wrong, it had its fans, but it was more of a low key following. When I went to see Endgame, I was able to convince my friends to go as well simply because they knew first movie, and the trailers mainly featured Connor MacLeod. None of them had any idea who Duncan was when they saw it.
Also, this movie was clearly written by people who never watched the series. The series established Duncan was never married. The series also begins with Connor admonishing Duncan that Immortals cannot hide and leave the Game, making it 100% out of character that Connor has been doing the same thing in Endgame. And, the show establishes Connor and Duncan had an encounter in 1992, but in Endgame, set in 2000, they haven't seen each other in over 10 years. I know they back-pedaled and said it was set in 2002 for the home release, but that clearly wasn't the original intent.
Besides, while Duncan met Methos in the series, it was implied that Connor knew him earlier. So Methos appearing in a flashback film isn't impossible. The only main character that couldn't appear in a flashback film is Joe, but we could have had Amanda instead. And why couldn't the Watchers be included? Nothing in the original film prevents them from existing. And why not try to correct the mistakes of the previous sequels, since Endgame was, to a large extent, promoted as a continuation of the movie. And yes, a fan of the original movie could view a flashback film and believe all these Immortals would die, and Connor would be the last. On the same token, a fan of the TV show could watch it and believe Duncan would ultimately win the Game. That's the beauty of it. It would work for all fans of Highlander.
And, at the time, the series was over. The last season bombed horribly. The writers failed miserably by killing off Richie Ryan, and Adrian Paul sleepwalked his way through the final season. The movie needed to revitalize the franchise, not follow the path of failure of the final season. The evidence of this is that Endgame was a failure. It pretty much sealed the fate of the series, and ensured that The Source was a home video release.
If you want to see what I mean, I highly recommend reading the book, Highlander: The Element of Fire by Jason Henderson. It is an adventure spanning centuries featuring Connor and Duncan, that could have served as a template for an awesome movie.
"Don't conform, be like us...."
First, I never meant that Endgame should be a one off movie that did not include the backstory of either MacLeod in a parallel universe
I was suggesting that the movie fully explore the development of Connor and Duncan's relationship established in the series. It is hinted that these two have a history that goes back centuries. A movie could have been made that fully explored this and could be completely consistent with both universes. Finally, the original movie could have a decent follow-up, and the TV series would have an awesome movie that went along side it. Arguably, the best scenes in Endgame are the flashbacks that establish Connor and Duncan's relationship. It wouldn't be a "prequel" per se, but an expansion of what was only glimpsed in the movie and the series. We know these two have kicked ass together, and we barely got a glimpse of it in the movie released.
And, the movie was not marketed towards fans of the series. That was the problem. It was mostly marketed as a follow up to the previous films, as the movie was released by Dimension Films, who had done the previous movie. The working titles were even Highlander IV. The first two trailers gave top billing to Christopher Lambert, and focused on Connor, with Duncan being seemingly a secondary character. The final trailer finally gave top-billing to Adrian Paul, and focused a little more on him. This was deceptive to everyone except die-hard fans who knew what was coming. Only websites like Highlander Fan Central promoted this movie as continuation of the series.
And, I don't know where you're from, but Highlander was hardly a popular show here in the US. The final seasons aired new episodes around 1AM or 2AM. Don't get me wrong, it had its fans, but it was more of a low key following. When I went to see Endgame, I was able to convince my friends to go as well simply because they knew first movie, and the trailers mainly featured Connor MacLeod. None of them had any idea who Duncan was when they saw it.
Also, this movie was clearly written by people who never watched the series. The series established Duncan was never married. The series also begins with Connor admonishing Duncan that Immortals cannot hide and leave the Game, making it 100% out of character that Connor has been doing the same thing in Endgame. And, the show establishes Connor and Duncan had an encounter in 1992, but in Endgame, set in 2000, they haven't seen each other in over 10 years. I know they back-pedaled and said it was set in 2002 for the home release, but that clearly wasn't the original intent.
Besides, while Duncan met Methos in the series, it was implied that Connor knew him earlier. So Methos appearing in a flashback film isn't impossible. The only main character that couldn't appear in a flashback film is Joe, but we could have had Amanda instead. And why couldn't the Watchers be included? Nothing in the original film prevents them from existing. And why not try to correct the mistakes of the previous sequels, since Endgame was, to a large extent, promoted as a continuation of the movie. And yes, a fan of the original movie could view a flashback film and believe all these Immortals would die, and Connor would be the last. On the same token, a fan of the TV show could watch it and believe Duncan would ultimately win the Game. That's the beauty of it. It would work for all fans of Highlander.
And why not try to correct the mistakes of the previous sequels, since Endgame was, to a large extent, promoted as a continuation of the movie. And yes, a fan of the original movie could view a flashback film and believe all these Immortals would die, and Connor would be the last. On the same token, a fan of the TV show could watch it and believe Duncan would ultimately win the Game. That's the beauty of it. It would work for all fans of Highlander.
And, at the time, the series was over. The last season bombed horribly. The writers failed miserably by killing off Richie Ryan, and Adrian Paul sleepwalked his way through the final season. The movie needed to revitalize the franchise, not follow the path of failure of the final season. The evidence of this is that Endgame was a failure. It pretty much sealed the fate of the series, and ensured that The Source was a home video release.
If you want to see what I mean, I highly recommend reading the book, Highlander: The Element of Fire by Jason Henderson. It is an adventure spanning centuries featuring Connor and Duncan, that could have served as a template for an awesome movie.
I could only find one of the trailers that I was talking about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Xfx0RKvA5s
There was another trailer before this one that I distinctly remember seeing before Scary Movie. It barely had Duncan in it at all. But, I cannot find it anywhere. I'm sure I have the .mov Quicktime file on one of my old hard drives.
The third trailer was the only full length trailer to give Adrian Paul top billing.
Here's another on in French, just for fun:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mD2CwpP4Xs
And, yes, I get what the producers were going for. I just think they were wrong. A Duncan/Connor movie could have been much more successful (in my opinion) had they gone the route I suggested....
"Don't conform, be like us...."
interesting. i have that same trailer that has the blue title sequence but its got Lambert's name second.
another i have are where it opens with Connor's dialogue from the cemetery. that also has Adrian Paul's name first. the other trailer is the one with the new visual FX thrown in and that too has Paul's name first.
if you have the spare time, im curious to see that other trailer you have stashed around somewhere.
as for the French trailer..well i wouldnt even bother with that in the debate because its from France...Christopher Lambert is a HUGE name in France.even to this day he is a big name actor to the French. so not surprising that he would be the first name you see on a trailer. even on movie posters in France he is always top billed. Mortal Kombat for instance, in America he gets the 'and Christopher Lambert' because he doesnt have much screen time as Raiden and he isnt the lead actor. yet in France his name is right there in bold print under the movie title.
yea i dont disagree that it would have been a better movie to have. i always wished i could see Connor and Duncan on the big screen going through some epic fight with some evil immortal that spanned centuries. of course thatd only work well if they had say the same writers of the tv series and a director that was competent and had experience rather than a first time director. had Dennis Berry been the director, we would have definitely gotten a great Highlander movie.
would it have been a bigger success?? eh..i dunno. fans would have certainly appreciated it, but i dont think a wide audience would have thought any better of it.
interesting. i have that same trailer that has the blue title sequence but its got Lambert's name second.
another i have are where it opens with Connor's dialogue from the cemetery. that also has Adrian Paul's name first. the other trailer is the one with the new visual FX thrown in and that too has Paul's name first.
I remember being at the movies and cursing at the screen when they had Duncan kill Connor. They also added insult to injury by giving Duncan a weak looking quickening.
shareanother i have are where it opens with Connor's dialogue from the cemetery. that also has Adrian Paul's name first.I just moved and I found the trailer we were discussing almost a year ago! Unfortunately, it's on a VCD I made years ago, and it's not currently in a format I can upload on Youtube.
if you have the spare time, im curious to see that other trailer you have stashed around somewhere.
Funny, the only reason I went to see Scary Movie was for the Endgame trailer.
shareSeeing as Connor was Duncan's mentor, than the mystical saga/franchise/story playbook dictates that Connor had to be the one to die in this case. You know like Obi-Wan Kenobi, Albus Dumbledore, or even Ramirez in this franchise for that matter. In fact he was killed twice. (haha)
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