MovieChat Forums > The Ninth Gate (2000) Discussion > Problem with devil and hell movies

Problem with devil and hell movies

posted 11 years ago by TejasTeacher
26 replies | jump to latest

I have thought of this for years and I see a huge flaw in the whole Faustian type film or devil worship in general.

If you believe in the devil, then by extension you believe in God. You can't have A without B, but you can have B without A (as a lot of believers these days seem to do).

Given that worldview, why would you bet on the losing horse, pick the wrong side, knowing that both exist? Forty or fifty years of heaven on Earth is not worth eternal punishment or non-existence in the hearafter.

And contrary to what Hollywood portrays, no one actually worships the devil. The Church of Satan even states up front that it uses Lucifer and the trappings as a symbol, a metaphor for "Do as thou whilst," not "Do unto others."

Balkan actually comes pretty close when he mocks their silly rituals and orgies at the Chateau scene.

[–] LeCadavreExquis 11 years ago

Why would Satan, if he represents pure evil, punish people who do evil deeds? If anything, he would reward them, no? So, either hell is an inherently paradoxical place, or it's not as bad as it's made out to be... or it's simple minded fairy tale crap.

There's a confidence in you guys that's horrifying.

[–] m-slovak79 9 years ago

Why would Satan, if he represents pure evil, punish people who do evil deeds? If anything, he would reward them, no?

satan hates humanity as we are a creation of God.

so naturally, he wants to bring as many souls to hell with him as he can. you get no reward with satan but a eternity of punishment in hell in the end going with his ways (i.e. continual sinning with no plans on changing towards God's standards etc).

it's pointless to go against God and his standards as you can't find true joy/happyness outside of God(i.e. The Holy Trinty(Father/Son(Jesus Christ)/Holy Spirit)).

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[–] schall1991 7 years ago

Do you truly think happiness is unachieveable without God? Can you not just ignore it like all other extreme ways of thought?

[–] scochs-1 7 years ago

Good question. Can you?

For me, true happiness is not achievable without god.

I'm not preaching or attempting to convert anyone or even advocating any particular deity. In fact, the only thing that's turned be off from god is other dip$h!ts insisting I believe what they believe and forcing me to behave as they do, and I'm not having that.

Perhaps others are fine without it/gawd. Cool with me and more power to them.

And for me it's not an extreme way of thought. But not having that peace in my life totally encourages extreme thoughts/behaviors and that's where the suffering starts for me. That's the hell.

Anyway, long tangent. Your post inspired some personal thoughts, I appreciate it!



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[–] schall1991 7 years ago

Thanks for your response! I guess I still don't understand. You mention "peace". I mean, I know you can only speak for yourself, so let me ask - why is "belief" in anything necessary for peace? In my opinion, like most things, you can put a positive/negative spin on it. Is everlasting life really that appealing? What is it about religion that you find appealing? I have just never been able to understand those who say they need it to be happy. Happiness is subjective and different people want different things in life (largely due to the fact that we all have different life experiences). I think it would be awesome if "God" really existed as most people think, but as a person who heavily values logic and evidence, I just can't but into it. Even if it was the only true way to be happy, I would prefer to be a little unhappy but also be in tune with the reality of current existence.

[–] scochs-1 7 years ago

Hey Schall1991, thanks for your reply!

Well, since it is so personal for me, the only way I can describe it, peace/sense of tranquility (whatever) is by experiencing what it's like to NOT have that. Focusing on "things" or "stuff" that satisfy only me and the expense of others, as opposed to (my understanding of) god.

Everlasting life? Religion? I think that some people equate god with those 2 things. I don't.

The cool thing that I see for you, based on what you've written, is that you're happy/at peace (whatever!) and you don't seem need to attribute that to an understanding of gOd.

Honestly, part of my belief "system" lies in understanding that everyone's got their own belief system, and it isn't for me to judge or criticize. I don't have time for it and it really is a waste of time if I find myself doing it.

I will say, that not stealing other people's crap, or being a total douche-bag to others or not killing people are good general rules for a healthy society, and I don't think that a christian bible can get sole credit for those ideas either.

And I totally agree - happiness is subjective. And just because I choose to believe in god, doesn't mean I'm running around like a giggling idiot, drooling at the awesomeness of life.

Anyway, that's my take on it!

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[–] R_Kane (15828) 2 years ago

He punishes them because he’s sadist. He delights in hurting others! Geez, it ain’t rocket science, pal.

[–] Ace_Spade (9347) 2 years ago

We're replying to an 8-year-old non-starter thread, I think, but...

This is a bit of a misconception that I think comes into mainstream through Paradise Lost. Satan doesn't *rule* Hell. He is just as much a prisoner being punished as everyone else. The concept of a Devil laughing while prodding fire-submerged people with a pitchfork isn't a Bible thing, it's a pop culture thing.

There's something to consider, though, about the idea that he would be bitter. He's a bully, a nasty piece of evil, but he'd want to punish others for doing "his work" because it's a way for him to pretend he doesn't have the same flaws. This is actually observable. Do you know anybody who has this problem? They're angriest at people who exhibit their own flaws and foibles?

[–] doctorcrimedog 11 years ago

You're coming from a traditionalist perspective. Other than being linked in tradition, there is no reason the existence of a devil would indicate a god as well. They're simply characters from the same storybook. Also, only the word of the Bible claims that the devil will eventually lose. Well, of course it says that. It's written by the pro-God contingent. A prophecy that the devil would eventually win wouldn't get into that book. There are traditions that hold that Satan is the good guy, as he represents knowledge and freedom from authority. After all, the "original sin" was partaking of the tree of knowledge.

Not that any of this is remotely true, of course.

-There is no such word as "alot."

[–] Ithilfaen 10 years ago

Since you mention Faust, you should know that sometimes people are tricked by the devil, sometime he uses their own arrogance by letting them believe there's an escape clause, that they can trick their way out of honoring their end of the bargain, sometimes they are desperate and think about immediacy rather than long term consequences.

I find the Faust tale says more about humanity than about the Devil really, as do most tales of the same genre.

For every lie I unlearn I learn something new - Ani Difranco

[–] DeyaGrey 10 years ago

I believe you are talking about two different types of worshiping the Devil. First one is called Theistic Satanism (believing in red-horned evil entity), the other one is called Atheistic Satanism (worshiping oneself). So in this case you don't need to have faith in god or any deity, you only believe in yourself - in the Devil (which is of course a good synonym to man's ego) - the Devil in this case is actually - you.

[–] Vath121 10 years ago

My problem with Devil/Hell movies is Jesus or God or some other GOOD entity never comes down to help. There's never any good to the bad. It's always the Devil or a demon or something, and even priests or religious people can do nothing about it.

[–] brightmidnight71 10 years ago

Also...to the OP...this viewpoint assumes Hell is a bad place to be. In the context of the story...consider the source. They might have the best parties down there. This world of ours might just be hell.

[–] brightmidnight71 10 years ago

Can god or religion or priests ever really do anything about real evil? Does god ever intervene directly? Only in the storybooks.

[–] schall1991 7 years ago

He likes to intervene, if say, a small child gets their head rolled over by a car but miraculously survives unharmed (I actually know the person that this actually happend to), but whenever some form of mass genocide occurs, he likes sit and let it play out for a while. Silly God! What will we ever do with him?

[–] scochs-1 7 years ago

^LMFAO! Sounds legit!

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[–] WideOpenSpace 10 years ago

I don't believe in God (jehova) coz I know from history its made up religion (stolen and modified)

but I believe in chaos/evil forces, which some call demons
so does that make me believe in any type of God ?

- nope, I don't believe there is higher entity that controls all crap

[–] sam-bishop-1 9 years ago

Non-theistic satanists / atheist satanists / la veyan satanists view satan as a symbol (not literally) so your first point is wrong.

[–] kaskait 9 years ago

You misunderstood the film.

Corso did not make a pact with the devil nor did he go to hell at the end of the film. He asked for nothing of the Devil or Angels he met on the way. His only goal was to satisfy curiosity.

It was Balkan who thought it was all a Faust deal. Balkan was the one who wanted to be given power and magic. The Forgery was to ensure that people like him did not get to the end of the quest.

The religious powers portrayed in this film are rather neutral. Everything done in the film was by free will of the characters. No magical power told Balkan to kill people, he did it by his own choice. Liana was hateful and dangerous by her own choice. The Baroness' hubris was all her own.

Corso compared to the rest was relatively innocent. He just wanted to know. And Ultimately was deemed fit by BOTH sides to get to the end of the quest.

[–] dutchchocolatecake 8 years ago

Yes, and also the "devil" in the movie is named Lucifer which means light bringer.

People have gotten so hung up on the idea of the "Devil" that they don't realize that Lucifer symbolizes enlightenment and freedom (which is what this movie is really about). Lucas Corso goes from a lower state of being to a higher state of being.

[–] scochs-1 7 years ago

^THIS - kaskait's analysis is the best I've seen regarding this film and it's end.

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[–] Drooch (5333) 2 years ago

My first impulse was that Corso was just curious, but then I wondered if he actually was tempted by the ‘power’. He started off a greedy sceptic, but by the end he’s seen supernatural weirdness in the form of greeneyes and even shagged her.

He saw Balkan endure the flames before things went bad, but that was only because he’d failed to complete the puzzle.

Corso’s an unscrupulous, greedy scumbag with few morals and not much to live for. I can see him thinking ‘what the hell, my life’s dull and grey, there’s clearly some genuine supernatural stuff going in here, and greeneyes seems to believe in me. Let’s do this…’

[–] ForTheNonce 7 years ago

why would you bet on the losing horse, pick the wrong side, knowing that both exist?

This is coming from a fundie Christian viewpoint. The devil is bad because the bible says so - but gee, who wrote/inspired the bible? Theistic devil worshippers either A) don't believe God's Book is correct, and/or B) find God's rules and conduct (or lack thereof) so objectionable that they're saying eff you to him, even at the possible cost of eternal pain.