How did Vegeta's power lending for a small amount of time change the battle from utter helplessness to complete dominance at the end? It's a bit drastic to make sense IMO... That implies that Vegeta was tremendously powerful, but as I remember it, Gohan was more powerful than Vegeta by the end of the Cell saga.
shareThis story however takes place before the cell saga. And you have to remember up to this point vegeta had done very little fighting!
shareStill Gohan can go SSj. I didn't see movie 7 so dunno about that, but the other SSj can't pump their muscles up and increase their ki yet so it's a little weird. I guess it was the only way Gohan could stay relevant.
Besides they never pooled their power like that before, so I would just be unconcerned about its placement.
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Because the movie sucks and makes no sense.
shareGoku just needed a bit more of a boost and Vegeta gave all his energy in a shorter time than the others so maybe he put more into it.
shareYou all can say what you like about Gohans power but in my mind Goku then Vegeta is the powerful Sayian rankings. Gohan is strong as a kid but after Cell he Gohan is weaker then his Dad and Vegeta.
My confusion is why Broly hates Goku so much.
by matt-cricket (Thu Dec 2 2010 03:00:22)
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Because the movie sucks and makes no sense.
You guys realise that he is right for the most part and has given the most accurate answer.
This movie is crap and so is everything that happens in it.
It's not even worth seriously discussing or debating over.
Goku absorbs Vegeta's power and it became as though he suddenly became like as strong as Vegetto or something and caused Brolli to explode with just one punch.
yeah right.
The animators and story writers just got stupid and lazy.
They made Brolli too strong and couldn't think of a creative way for Goku to win. So they had Goku absorbing vegeta's power and suddenly ending the fight with a OHKO punch.
well, vegeta was the next strongest of the group just a bit behind goku so that would be like goku doubling his power plus the contributions of gohan, trunks, and piccolo and he punched broly in the same place he was stabbed as a baby and tore open the wound, thats how he beat him with one punch.
shareActually, when you think about it, it's not quite the asspull it sounds like.
Krillin and Gohan gave their energy to Picollo, which gave him enough power to land a good kick against Freiza (who was vaaaastly superior to Picollo otherwise).
I don't know. Like fusion, it's difficult to tell how that stuff works but generally pooling in power/energy seems to almost double ones strength.
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Krillin and Gohan gave their energy to Picollo, which gave him enough power to land a good kick against Freiza (who was vaaaastly superior to Picollo otherwise).
The Piccolo and Frieza thing was more believable though.
Piccolo was equal to second form Frieza, where as Gohan with his hidden power was able to fight the second form of frieza temporarily when he was in his powered up rage. I think Gohan was also able to fight the 3rd form for a very short time.
I don't remember if he did fight him.
Anyway, the point is: They didn't make Frieza seem indestructible.
Even when Piccolo, Gohan or Vegeta were much weaker than him, they were able to hit him and hurt him at some points.
The problem with Broli is that they did in fact make him seem completely indestructible.
In the entire movie, he was either too fast for any attack, or completely impervious to any attack. No one was able to hurt him even just a little bit.
Then at the end of the movie, Goku absorbs Vegeta's energy and was suddenly strong enough to kill him by hitting his weak spot in one single punch.
Er, no.
1) Gohan only did well against Freiza because
-Gohan's rage seems to allow him to adapt temporarily to his enemies powers although this is VEEEEERY inconsistent as Picollo's death couldn't even trigger enough power to harm Napa. Like most power ups, plot seems to determine the power.
- You are correct about Gohan fighting 3rd form Freiza, but this brings up another point. The only reason Gohan could ever hurt Freiza or anyone who was more powerful than him is because they let their guards down.
2) They didn't make Freiza seem indestructible? Actually, I think to an extent, they did. King Kai practically crapped himself and seemed to think that Freiza was the strongest in the universe....IN HIS FIRST FORM. I thought it was weak writing when Vegeta seemed to hold him off when even by his Saiyan upgrades, he shouldn't be more than half of Freiza's pl at that point. In essence, bad writing was ultimately what defeated Freiza.
Also, Vegeta never 'hurt' Freiza. They got in a grappling match before Freiza transformed but every time Vegeta attacked Freiza, it either missed, was countered or had no effect. In fact, Vegeta ultimately did WORSE than everyone else. Why? Because Freiza more-or-less took him seriously. He underestimated everyone else.
3) BUT, I understand where you are coming from and actually think this is a problem with DBZ after the Frieza saga. The villains only became more godly. I liked little quirks about how fights went down. Tien and Krillin, two of the weaker fighters by that point, had techniques that could still damage a big bad. But as the show went on, the villains seemed to get bodies that could only be destroyed by a powerful fighter. Freiza just happened to be the villain in a time where villains weren't quite so broken.
4) So are MOST villains though. Perfect Cell, the latter incarnations of Buu, they are shown to be 'perfect' because as time went on, DBZ stopped considering strength, speed and skill as different qualities. There reached a time when all started becoming one.
But as said, Picollo (1,000,000 pl), getting Gohan's and Krillin's pl (around 250,000 each, if I'm generous to Krillin. Also, remember they were wary and kept some power for themselves) somehow was able to land a good hit on Frieza who had what....a 60,000,000 pl?
Or how is it Nail's meager 45,000 power level effected Picollo's so much? Picollo couldn't have had THAT high of a power level as he was at King Kai's for only a short time.
For some reason, power pooling seems to have a godly effect on people.
4) But if that's not enough, let's consider this. Broli is super arrogant, relying too much on his power. We see him constantly take hits because he can brush them off with ease. So it might've not been Goku's powers that killed him as much as his over-confidence when it came to his own abilities.
I don't recall if I used this example before, but Vegeta killed Zarbon this way too. They were more-or-less matched, with Vegeta having to use some dirty tricks to keep it that way. But when Zarbon freaks out and lets his guard down, Vegeta dispatches him easily with a flesh piercing punch. Broli was ALWAYS like this.
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1) Gohan only did well against Freiza because
-Gohan's rage seems to allow him to adapt temporarily to his enemies powers
I DID mention that it was temporary and that it was rage based.
Gohan's rage doesn't cause him to "adapt" to his enemy's power, it causes his power to increase.
The only reason Gohan could ever hurt Freiza or anyone who was more powerful than him is because they let their guards down.
You missed the point completely.
The POINT is: Frieza can get hurt.
It doesn't matter if he let his guard down or whatever. He can get hurt.
If the Frieza saga followed the same idiocy as this Brolli movie, Frieza would be completely impervious to anything even in his 1st form and he'll change forms just for the heck of it.
what makes Broli's power so ridiculously stupid is that he seems to be untouched by anything.
I don't remember if Broli ever let his guard down (been ages since I've seen this movie) but this movie makes it seem that even if he did let his guard down, it will still just feel like as if he got hit by a flea.
As powerful as Frieza was, the saga showed that he could still be beaten.
2) They didn't make Freiza seem indestructible? Actually, I think to an extent, they did. King Kai practically crapped himself and seemed to think that Freiza was the strongest in the universe....IN HIS FIRST FORM.
Ever heard of dramatic effect?? I guess you never have.
King Kai worries too much, that's a part of his personality where he takes things seriously.
Also the fact that he freaks out is for the audience to have a sense of how powerful Frieza is and therefore get a sense that he's a serious threat.
It's part of the "drama" in the series so the audience won't take the villain lightly.
Also notice that even though at the time Frieza was the strongest in the universe, he could STILL get hurt?
Reinforces my previous point about Frieza not being as riduculous as broli was when it comes to how his power was portrayed.
But as said, Picollo (1,000,000 pl), getting Gohan's and Krillin's pl somehow was able to land a good hit on Frieza who had what....a 60,000,000 pl?
As you said, it was because he caught frieza off guard.
Also, that kick by Piccolo only hit frieza hard and sent him flying.
It didn't cause him to die and explode which what happened in the Broli movie when Goku absorbed everyone + vegeta's power.
Or how is it Nail's meager 45,000 power level effected Picollo's so much? Picollo couldn't have had THAT high of a power level as he was at King Kai's for only a short time.
Err.. Nail was NOT meager.
He was the strongest Namek and the only last living warrior class Namek.
Frieza even acknowledges how strong he was and was surprised that someone as strong as him exist and tried to offer him to join.
It's mentioned on the dbz wikia if you're wondering.
But if that's not enough, let's consider this. Broli is super arrogant, relying too much on his power. We see him constantly take hits because he can brush them off with ease. So it might've not been Goku's powers that killed him as much as his over-confidence when it came to his own abilities.
That's a small possiblity. But ok.
Thing is, I just think it was a ridiculous movie (even the sequel of broli's return was much better) so I don't want to keep arguing about whether or not it makes sense. In the end it doesn't really matter.
They were more-or-less matched, with Vegeta having to use some dirty tricks to keep it that way. But when Zarbon freaks out and lets his guard down, Vegeta dispatches him easily with a flesh piercing punch.
I figured that during their second battle, Vegeta's power level had increased since he got the saiyan power up after being revived from near death.
Vegeta was now as strong as Zarbon's second form where as previously he wasn't.
With Vegeta's skill and cunning, he learned from his past mistake and figured zarbon out, so it was easy to beat zarbon the second time around.
To draw reference from another DBZ movie, another good example is Janemba.
In fusion reborn, Janemba is stronger than a ssj3 Goku.
At one time while Janemba was preoccupied with torturing/about to finish Goku off, a REGULAR non ssj Vegeta manages to surprise kick him and knock him down.
Vegeta in his base form would be many thousand power levels weaker than ss3 Goku or Janemba.
If this were following Broli's logic, Vegeta's kick would not even have phased Janemba at all considering Janemba is many thousand levels higher than base form Vegeta.
So if Janemba could still get hurt by Vegeta even when he was so much weaker that him, there's no reason that Broli could be so strong that nothing could ever hurt him except until the final scene.
Er, if you're referring to when Vegeta first shows up, you're mistaken. Vegeta IS in SSj mode and he actually blasts Janemba.
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In fusion reborn, Janemba is stronger than a ssj3 Goku.
At one time while Janemba was preoccupied with torturing/about to finish Goku off, a REGULAR non ssj Vegeta manages to surprise kick him and knock him down.
I just watched this again. It technically takes place before anyone acquired the ascended Saiyan level, but after Gohan learned Super Saiyan. Remember that these movies aren't canon, so don't try to fit this within the timeline.
When you think about it, the strongest SHOULD be Picollo, since he had already fused with Kami.
I don't think Vegeta's power made Goku stronger than Broli. Broli was defeated by his own circumstances. Goku punched him in a wound that probably never fully healed (where he was stabbed) and the injury caused his own power to detonate- like the original Super Saiyan.
The thing everyone has to remember about Dragonball Z though, whether it's the manga, TV show, or serial films, is that the writers don't think about consistency or whether it makes sense. They want "cool". How would Vegeta's brother know that Avo and Cado are as strong as Frieza, even though scouters can't read a power level over...um, 180,000? Based on Vegeta himself, no one knew that Frieza could go beyond 1,000,000. But the writers wanted to include that so we would know that Avo and Cado are as strong as Frieza.
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