MovieChat Forums > U-571 (2000) Discussion > Plot hole bigger than a UBoat?

Plot hole bigger than a UBoat?

posted 12 years ago by benbo-3
10 replies | jump to latest

Never mind the historical inaccuracies. The 571 was stranded in the mid-Atlantic. Ok, so they're expecting a resupply ship from France, to the East. The Americans run a sneak attack/boarding, coming from the West. No characters mention anything about the American disguised boat swinging a wide circle & approaching from the East, or even SouthEast. Tired & anxious as the Uboat crew were, wouldn't they have been surprised & suspicious at their resupply coming from the West? Wouldn't they have had their guns trained on any boat approaching from that direction, in the absence of an explanation (i.e. 'we missed you the 1st time out & doubled back')?

[–] MJohnathen 12 years ago

I assume it went something like this: Captain, U-boat Spotted off Bow at 05 degrees, starboard, all hands, prepare to dive, navigations officer, plot a course to bring us round to the east, prepare for silent running, all ahead slow.

[–] CGSailor 12 years ago

It's worse than you know.

Remember when Lt. Hirsch was briefing the officers in the wardroom of the mission?
Two lines totally blows a hole in the whole film.

Lt. Hirsch: Last night at 0300 hours a British destroyer reported depth charging and sinking a German U-boat. However, sometime thereafter, Allied direction finding station triangulated a coded enemy radio signal to this position here near the chop line.
[indicates position on map]
We believe the U-boat was disabled, not sunk, and is drifting eastward on a four-knot current. Now, French resistance reported a resupply submarine sailed from the Lorient U-boat pens yesterday afternoon with engine parts and mechanics. Now, we believe it's gonna rendezvous with the disabled U-boat.

So the sub was only attacked last night but the resupply sub sent to repair it was sent out the afternoon before the sub was damaged?

I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

[–] benbo-3 12 years ago

If they're meeting in the early morning hours the next day, it makes sense. Let's say the sub was attacked 03:00 Saturday morning, June 2. The resupply sub sails in the PM (afternoon) on June 2. The Allies meet in the early morning AM hours on June 3, really a day later. When he says '...last night at 03:00', he's technically right because 'last night' means 'not tonight, but a night ago' - June 2. If we were up early in the morning and talk about last night, we'd mean the day before the preceding night, not just a few hours ago. If it's say 04:00 on Sunday, June 3, 'yesterday afternoon' would mean 'Saturday, in the PM'. Poorly worded but can be twisted to make sense of.

[–] CGSailor 12 years ago

A serious twisting but I see what you are saying. Have to accept it for that in order to make sense.

But poorly worded indeed. Lets assign the 3rd as the day they discussed the plan. it had to have been Evening just after sunset as the rest of the events following take place after dark. thus last night at 0300 would have still been 0300 on the 3rd and yesterday afternoon would have been on the 2nd. If they meant 0300 on the second, no one would have said "last night" in reference to a time taking place during the previous night before last night.

0300/3rd would have been "last night" for any period after daybreak on the 3rd.

Yesterday at 0300, would have then indicated 0300/2nd.

It is a plot hole there. but I have no problem having to accept an explanation forced to fit the situation in order to make sense.

Same thing happened with Star Wars and the goof Lucas made using Parsec as a unit of speed rather than distance. The whole goof was retconned and a behind the scenes backstory created explaining how Kessel was in a cluster of orbiting black holes known as the Maw. the safest route was always changing with the changing orbits of the black holes. so Han was bragging about the Falcon having succeeded in making the Kessel run in the shortest distance than any other vessel.

It's all BS of course, Clearly the line was meant to refer to making the run in the shortest time, but you do what you gotta do.

Being that I have jumped back a day in time on several occasions to relive the same day over and have also leapt forward in time and skipped a day on several occasions as well. Who am I to argue? LOL
International Date Line. It can be a real B!tch sometimes...

One day I landed 4 hours before I took off, on the same day, and that was after spending 20 hours in the air. Narita International to LAX. Took off at 1400 on a Tuesday, spent 20 hours flying, and landed at 1000 still on the same Tuesday.

I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

[–] benbo-3 12 years ago

I love it when people use light-years as a measure of time, 'i.e. we can't do that - this project will already take light-years to finish!'

[–] CGSailor 12 years ago

Going back to the original thought on the plot hole. That being the direction to which the resupply sub (or the disguised resupply in this case) was coming from... East or West.

In this case there IS a ready explanation.
there are multiple reasons why the sub would be coming from the west and not the east as one not experienced at sea might obviously expect.

we have no indication that there was a response from command telling them of the sub. Most likely there was, but even then, keeping transmissions short was a priority, when and where the rendezvous was to take place and that help was coming would be a priority. WHERE the help was coming from would not. For all U-571 knew, the resupply vessel was one already out to sea supporting the wolfpacks. In this case it would be no shock to have it come from the west or the north, northwest, or northeast or possibly any point on the compass.

Another case, even if the Sub was told the help was coming from Lorient, U-571 was adrift. The Resupply sub would have it's general location and a only the most vaguest of ideas as to the drift of the boat. The Resupply vessel could have reached the general area and commenced a ladder search pattern and made contact on an eastbound leg of the search.

A lot of landlubbers (no offense) just do not realize how difficult it is to spot another ship on the open ocean and just how tiny the search footprint is that a vessel can see at any given moment. From the bridge of a sub to another sub... sighting ranges are VERY short. less than a couple of miles. On the open ocean, missing by just a handful of miles means neither sub would spot each other. This is the most likely event and the rescue sub would have had to search for some time in the general area before making contact.

So no. The Germans not getting suspicious because the sub came from the west rather than the east is not a plot hole. The resupply sub going on a rescue of a sub not yet damaged in an attack that wont happen for several more hours.... That is.

I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

[–] benbo-3 12 years ago

Good possibility, but I'm pretty sure the 571 was expecting relief - and if they got a message for that, surely there would've had to be a code phrase as well as anything unusual such as coming from the totally opposite direction of what was expected (i.e. *Flash 0725 hours - expect resupply boat registration # E442 23.30 hours approaching from southeast - codeword 'strudel'). That's short but also contains enough info to reasonably identify expected help.
As far as drift, what about radard? Even if 571's wasn't working, they could still tell east from west and the resupply boat could easily locate the 571 - they would have radar.

[–] CGSailor 12 years ago

benbo,

How much actual experience do you have with naval tactics?
I am not trying to be rude. far from it actually. But I am trying to illustrate to you that your ideas of "how it should have happened" is in error precisely because of your ignorance of them. Ignorance not in the insulting manner, but ignorance as in "not knowing".

Radar.
Radar gives away far more to the enemy than it gives to you. In such a situation as presented in the film, use of radar would be a very LAST resort.

You are searching a warehouse for a burglar who is hiding from you. Unless your flashlight beam hits the burglar square on... you will not see him.
The Burglar however knows exactly where you are at all times because your searching beam is giving your position away.
That is what radar does for you.
Had either sub used radar, the allies would have been on them almost immediately.
Trust me on this. MY JOB in the USN was as an Electronics Warfare Technician. An EW. My job was to intercept, jam, or decoy, radar and radar guided weapons. I know the history of radar and anti-radar warfare.

Again, with the message. Your example is totally unrealistic and the product of a (again, no offense) civilian with little experience. It completely ignores the one problem most likely to occur. that of the resupply boat having to search a bit before finding. The sub could have made contact from any direction even if it was known what original direction it was to approach the meeting location from. Telling them to expect a meeting coming from such and such direction is ludicrous. And more to the point... potentially disastrous. Knowing a direction that help is likely to approach from, the lookouts subconsciously (it's human nature) would be sneaking peeks in that direction as well as trying to watch their own sectors, rather than only the lookout assigned to that sector. This means the enemy might go unnoticed coming from another direction.

There is NO REASON for them to include a direction of approach.
There is EVERY reason for them NOT to include it.
1) Even knowing where the other ship is coming from, the ship could still be contacted from any direction due to the nature of searching a huge ocean.
2) Keeping transmissions time to a bare minimum.
3) potentially creating a condition where the lookouts would not be as vigilant in directions other than the expected direction.

I hope this made the case clear for you.
Again, I am not trying to be rude. It's just that it's clear you don't have the background to understand all the problems and consequences involved.

All U-571 needs be told is.
1) Help is coming
2) expected arrival date

U-571 does not even need to be told the meeting location. They are not going anywhere on their own power and they told command where they are and where they are drifting.
When told an arrival time, they can work out for themselves where they will be at such a time by plotting ahead.

Short.
To the point
END TRANSMISSION

I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

[–] randor-618-405190 11 years ago

@CGSailor. Great explanations. Pure landlubber here.

[–] Bush_Pilot 12 years ago

They didn't have GPS back then and would have to search back and forth a little to find anything without any radio signals. Signals unlikely to be broadcast since they would at least betray themselves to allies in the vicinity, if not HufDuf.

As a WWII buff it is really disappointing to see them spend a reported $26 million on a movie so historically inaccurate when there are so many exciting true stories from all sides in that war. Just gazillions of them. Makes no sense at all. In reality, American subs were in great danger wherever and whenever they cruised in the Atlantic because everyone would immediately conclude they were German and attack at once. US boats had to practically sneak around while going to and from East Coast Ports and were stationed in the pacific.

Guns kill people, just like Spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat.