In the flashback to Tony's teenage years on the episode In Camelot, we see the show Cannon playing on TV. If anyone here is familiar with that show and can pick out what episode it is Tony's watching, that would tell us when exactly the flashback took place. Anyone here able to help?
shareCannon
shareThat's pretty funny!
"But seriously folks," I found the flashback scene interesting because Cannon was an early/mid 70s TV show(started in 1971) and here we had Fran talking about a 1961 tryst with JFK. That's at least a ten year gap.
Set me to wondering:
How long after the JFK business did Fran meet Johnny Soprano?
How long were Fran and Johnny Soprano "an item"?
Its also possible that Johnny met Fran some years after the JFK tryst, when she was more "down and out and used," and a New Jersey gangster could attract her.
The one 'positive" in favor of Fran being entitled to the $150K was that it looks like Fran was Johnny's mistress for quite a few years -- longer than any mistress stayed with son Tony....
Come to think of it, wouldn't Livia have been pushing it a little to have been pregnant in what I assumed was the mid 1970's given Tony's age in the flashback?
shareYes. As I recall, The Sopranos had a little trouble with "the image of a young Livia" in flashbacks. I don't know if a different actress was used, but a different "look" was used. Livia seemed young and almost sexy in her 1960's flashback version(being sexually mauled by her husband in front of the kids, though he's being playful.) Livia seemed like, well, LIVIA --whining and soul-killing and dumpy -- in that 70's flashback, just a younger version.
I'm sure that a greater expert than I am on the Sopranos can tell us what age Livia was supposed to be at death in ...2002? Then track it backwards to 1971-1975 and see if a pregnancy was viable.
I'm pretty sure they never gave Livia an actual age, and I was always kind of assumed she was in her early 70's, which would have made her somewhere in her late 40's when she was last pregnant!
Was that the same actress playing her in the flashback with the meat that you mentioned? I'm pretty certain though that it was a different actress playing her in the first season flashback. Don't know why they didn't just keep it consistent as they did with Tony's father.
Well, I remember thinking the "60s meat" version of Young Livia was hard to picture aging into the woman we knew; but the 70's pregnancy version seemed like a duplicate.
I THINK different actresses were hired.
The guy who played Johnny was great. He had been in the movie "Carlito's Way" as a VERY menacing Mafia man, filled with furious anger at the death of his father(kind of an early version of Phil Leotardo, but younger). He had a strange face -- handsome but scary in a certain way.
Bottom line: you could see how Tony Soprano would probably fear Johnny Soprano in the growing up years and therefore how Tony's "softer side" would pull him a few millimeters away from his father's savagery when he became a mob boss. Tony was a killer like dad, but with a somewhat more suburbanized mellowness. For a killer.
Johnny was a great flashback additive to the show because he was dead when it began. That one actor WAS the character. Livia present day was tough to "match up" to the younger versions in flashback.
Pregnanies in one's forties were do-able back then, but not the best thing for the health of the mother, or bringing the pregnancy to term. I think.
Yeah, which could be looked upon as why she had a miscarriage, but of course it doesn't seem like the writers were factoring that in and were just treating her as a younger woman.
Agreed, he was great as Johnny Boy, one could easily believe Tony fearing him, and he also made a menacing and hot-headed impression in Carlito's Way.
Agree there too. The bed ridden Livia in the 5th season flashback completely corresponded to her older character, the others no. Despite her ruthlessness, I could never buy her literally stomping mad in the first season flashback which was so unlike her older character.
Yeah, which could be looked upon as why she had a miscarriage, but of course it doesn't seem like the writers were factoring that in and were just treating her as a younger woman.
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I think the issue here was using "Cannon." It threw things into the 70s and the pregnancy made less sense. Also, suddenly seeing a woman who was just like "our Livia" was weird. This actress seemed "right" but didn't match the sixties version. Of course, Livia may have rapidly deteriorated....
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Agreed, he was great as Johnny Boy, one could easily believe Tony fearing him, and he also made a menacing and hot-headed impression in Carlito's Way.
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He's scary in Carlito's Way, once his dad has been killed you know its trouble for Pacino in a BIG way. Interesting how the actor ended up in The Sopranos.
I think "The Sopranos" made the point that even in the world of the Mafia, generations had different upbringings and abilities to "advance." The home Tony Soprano grew up in sure looks smaller and cheaper than his hilltop McMansion. And Johnny Soprano seemed a less articulate and witty man than son Tony.
I figure Tony -- a smart guy -- absorbed 60's and 70's culture and adapted "Old Style Mafia tradition" into new-style suburban achievement: the SUV, the college-aimed kids, the backyard BBQ. But when you get down to it, Tony is very much his father's son in temperament and willingness to kill to dominate and survive.
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The bed ridden Livia in the 5th season flashback completely corresponded to her older character, the others no. Despite her ruthlessness, I could never buy her literally stomping mad in the first season flashback which was so unlike her older character
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Yes, that and the sexual willingness with Johnny Boy. But I suppose that Livia knew she had to compete with any number of mistresses.
The Sopranos was overall great and often perfect in any given episode. But like any long-form series, sometimes things didn't quite "match up" or play right.
Speaking of a casting change: I'm pretty sure they converted Chris's alcoholic mother from a fairly attractive and pleasant character into a much more broken-down and unattractive one. Changes were made.
(Not as many as with the son on Mad Men, though.)
I've actually never really heard of Cannon until this post. I always assumed the time frame was around the mid '70's due to Tony looking like he was around 15-16 and having been born around 1961. Also, if I remember correctly, in the last season it was revealed Tony did his first hit in 1982 when he was 21. Since Tony looked to be around 15 in the flashback, it would had to have taken place around 1976.
shareYes her sexual willingness with Johnny was striking in contrast to her older, somewhat puritanical character.
Exactly, as with most series continuity errors and such are bound to occur particularly when many different writers are involved.
Yes, Joanne Moltisanti was another change and one for the better I always thought. Another change less noticed due to having no lines in the first season was Pussy's wife.
That's about the end of Cannon's run , first run. Indeed late for a Livia pregnancy.
I was around then, around Tony's age, knew of Cannon...never watched an entire episode. The was a bit hip in positing an overweight man as a private eye who could punch men and romance women with the best of 'em, as I recall. I saw it in bits and pieces, sometimes.
It was part of a "cop show stable" of series from a producer named Quinn Martin. All his shows had the same credit formats and narrator's voice. "Police Squad" (the TV show) made fun of them. You had Cannon(the overweight detective), Barnaby Jones(Buddy Ebsen, the elderly detective), Dan August(Burt Reynolds as the macho detective, right before movie stardom) , and crown jewel shows like Streets of San Francisco(Karl Malden, Michael Douglas) and The FBI(Efrem Zimbalist Jr. from the 60s to the 70s.)
I watched the credit sequences and parts of these shows, but barely any of them all the way through. As shown on the Sopranos, they were like "wallpaper."