the clerk


You think his life was changed by some psycho and expect him to do that? let's face it, instead of celebrating what Tyler does, consider what actually happens to Raymond. There's no Marvel-style post-credits of him walking in a cap and gown, collecting a diploma. The last we see of the man, is a person in true fear, running from an incident likely to cause PTSD.

With that dumb quote from a maniac's fantasy "tomorrow will be the most beautiful day of his life and his dinner will taste better than anything we ate".

I doubt it. Hessel won’t be able to eat tonight because he was just held up at gunpoint. He’ll have to report this to the police and go through the bullshit hassle of getting a new license. He’ll probably be too terrified to sleep, afraid to walk on the streets at night, possibly suffer PTSD


Tyler is nothing but a terrifying lunatic monster who gets carried away by impeding on other people's freedoms to justify his own ideals. He forces a store clerk to have a renewed appreciation for life, but completely ignores the possibility that he could have induced some serious PTSD that could negatively affect this man for life. He inspires men of fight club to feel free and instinctual, only to then mentally manipulate them into his slaves and make them think/believe in only his own words and ideas. These men cant even think for themselves at the end and they worship Tyler like a God instead of worshiping their own self worth and ideals. Tyler is a terrorist with a God-like superiority complex, which is a bad thing and a contradiction to his own ideals of human beings.

And the so called sacrifices of stealing their IDs and doing the same thing to others suffered from PTSD.

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I agree...but part of the movie is about a portrayal of a interesting aspect of human nature, the power of "the cult of personality"...Abe Lincoln,Adolf Hitler, Mao, Trump,JFK,Elvis...some people just don't want to think, they just want to be led and/or are easily led. This is one of the best recent movies that shows this.

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Do you agree Tyler Durden is nothing but a terrifying dirtbag maniac?

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I read a interesting book a few years back called "The Wrath of Cochise". It was about the Apache wars in the mid-late 1800's.

The interesting thing about the book was that it gave the point of view of the Apaches. They were a warrior tribe, it sustained itself not by hunting but raiding! This was a culture that was built around a warrior ethos, which would celebrate a young man going on his first raiding party.

The Apaches looked at the white man with contempt, working all day to manufacture goods, the goal of accumulating wealth was alien to them. A totally foriegn concept.

This movie is kind of like that, the acknowledgement of the spirtiual emptiness of captialism.

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True
But then the character of Tyler truly believes it to be true.

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Jack's wounded pride.... remember, the guy was fundamentally insane.

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Absolutely

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No Tyler is nothing but a disturbed terrorist dirtbag

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True
But then the character of Tyler truly believes it to be true

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What's true about giving someone PTSD? and do you agree he's a monster?

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Of course he's a monster.
I'm saying (like all terrorists) he believes what he is saying. He actually believes he has done that guy a favour.

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A favor? not really? i doubt he ever went to vet school as he suffered from PTSD and becoming an alcoholic and being too scared to walk alone at night and all. He would have to report the maniac to the police and get a new license.

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HE actually BELIEVES he has done that guy a favour!
NOT ME.

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You do know Tyler/Rupert/Cornelius, etc. is suffering from severe multiple personality disorder, right? Who told you was a hero?

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You have no idea what sort of effect that act might have on a person. It probably would be the wake-up call to pursue his dreams, especially with the fear of retaliation if he failed to follow through on his promise. We know that he wants to get out of that dead-end job and back into school, but inertia and fear have kept him in the status quo, so Tyler's act would probably push him to do more with his life than he had been doing.

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Wake up call? BULLSHIT! Tyler is just a fantasy of an insecure man.

Certain things haven't aged well. Like the "Raymond K Hessel" scene. Tyler is like "I just made him appreciate his life more!" No, asshole, you just gave the poor kid crippling PTSD for the rest of his life. I doubt the clerk went to vet school, he became an alcoholic and same thing that happened with the so called "sacrifices".

Tyler is a complete scumbag fantasy of a disturbed worker full of insecurities.

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First off, the entire thing is fiction, so there's no right answer here. Second, this is not, or at least should not be, a discussion of Tyler's overall characterization. This should be a thought exercise about that one scene, and how it might play out in the real world.

I know that many, many people want to do some certain thing with their life, whether it be write a book, go back to school, learn to play an instrument, start a band, start a small business, travel to a foreign land, and yet they don't do it. They are afraid of the risks. Their life is not what they want it to be, but they are comfortable with the predictable routine and are afraid to risk finding themselves in a worse situation down the road because of a failed attempt to create a better situation.

What would happen if someone did what Tyler did to such a person? On one hand, it is a scary situation, though I think PTSD is going to be a rare result. Most people are sturdy enough to get past a robbery or assault without PTSD. Rather, I think the person would do some deep thinking and realize that they are being forced to do exactly what they want to do. I honestly think it would be more of a wake-up call to get one's life in order than something that leaves a person cowering under the bed. Again, as it's fiction, there's no right answer, but I think the odds are overwhelming that Hessel enrolled in school and took a different, better path through life for having met Tyler.

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Your too stupid to realize how much of a monster Tyler is and a terrorist and a terrifying dirtbag.

The poor man is gonna get PTSD as he's too terrified and all, i doubt he went to Vet school

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Why can there never be a friendly back-and-forth on this site? Any interesting topic quickly becomes "your stupid." And as an aside, why is it never "you're stupid?" Why do the name-callers always use the possessive form?

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I've known people held up at gunpoint, they get on with life. Not everyone is a fragile snowflake like in modern movies. I myself have been shot at, there was no PTSD, just fodder for good stories.

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Bullets (in my experience) hurt.... a lot.

Lucky you got missed, but don't court it.

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Okay, you win, but my point stands. We aren't talking about you but a fictional clerk.

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The clerk was terrfied as hell and too scared to walk at night alone.

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I don't think it's useful to argue about how a fictional clerk might react in a movie. My point was just that not everyone wilts like a flower at the first sign of violence.

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Maybe you remember the scene where our protagonist (both halves of him) drags one of the only people of color in the whole film out behind the building at his shitty job, puts a gun to his head, and tells him to go back to school to be a veterinarian like he always wanted to be. And half our protagonist (we’ll call this half “Edward Norton”) tells the other half (we’ll call this half “Mr. wannabe Cool”) that maybe he shouldn’t go around pointing guns at people. Because, you know, maybe that’s taking it too far.

My guess is that tomorrow will be the worst day of Raymond K. Hessel’s life. Anxiety will make decisions for him, for the rest of his life, even more than poverty already has.

But that’s the idea of Fight Club, right? Whoa, what if we… took it too far? Just like how Mr. Cool is taking Mr. Norton over the edge. Wouldn’t that be great?

No, it wouldn’t.

What does Mr. Cool say to the complaining Mr. Norton?

“Tomorrow will be the most beautiful day of Raymond K. Hessel’s life. His breakfast will taste better than any meal you and I have ever tasted.”

And herein lies the center of Fight Club’s logical fallacy. Odds are, Raymond K. Hessel isn’t going to just float through life now, thinking “oh my god, I’m so grateful I’m alive” and healing hurt animals.

Instead, his limbic system will likely stay in overdrive owing to the trauma of having a gun pointed at his head, owing to the realization that there is a crazy madman who talks to himself who knows where he lives and wants to kill him if he doesn’t become a veterinarian. My guess is that tomorrow will be the worst day of Raymond K. Hessel’s life. Anxiety will make decisions for him, for the rest of his life, even more than poverty already has.
The protagonist ruining a man's life to make a point to himself.


I have a sneaking suspicion that our Raymond K. Hessel didn’t quit his dreams because he was lazy, but because he was poor.

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I have nothing to add but want to recognize your well thought post out which I will think about next time I watch the movie.

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First of all, having a gun pointed at you doesn't automatically create trauma.

Second of all, if you compare these life situations:

1) Nothing happens, and you wither and rot away in a meanial job for the rest of your life and die unhappy and unfulfilled, a wasted incarnation to say the least

2) Something 'startling' happens that may have a fear explosion in the beginning, but in time, gives you perspective, more choices, realizations, insights and understanding that you have more options than number 1) life. With a bit of reflection, meditation, understanding that someone up there wants you to go forward in life, you will soon become a veterinarian, fulfill your dreams, move out of that crappy basement apartment and have an actually purposeful, meaningful, and fulfilling life. Incarnation well spent.

Regardless of how much 'fear' or 'trauma' (which people exaggerate - it's not life-debilitating, it's just scary for a limited time) is involved, Raymond will definitely be endlessly happier with life number 2), wouldn't you say?

Sometimes you have to pay a scary price to arrive at a better life situation. Life is not all euphoria and paradise, you know. You have to work hard sometimes, and Raymond's problem wasn't 'fear', his problem was that he didn't drive himself hard enough, he gave up on his dreams too easily, he was becoming COMPLACENT, and Tyler kicked him out of that and put him on fast-track to happiness.

This incident made Raymond also tougher and less fearful. Next time some armed goons arrive to his shop, he's going to fear a bit less and see that everything in life happens for a purpose. He may even gain faith in the Great Spirit and awaken his true spirituality - and that is worth any amount of fear.

I also think Tyler was right; Raymond's meals will taste better, because he 'almost died', and that means, he is going to evaluate and re-evaluate everything in his life differently from now on. He's going to -appreciate- things he took for granted

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Tomorrow will be the most beautiful day of Raymond K. Hessel’s life. His breakfast will taste better than any meal you and I have ever tasted.”

And herein lies the center of Fight Club’s logical fallacy. Odds are, Raymond K. Hessel isn’t going to just float through life now, thinking “oh my god, I’m so grateful I’m alive” and healing hurt animals.

Instead, his limbic system will likely stay in overdrive owing to the trauma of having a gun pointed at his head, owing to the realization that there is a crazy madman who talks to himself who knows where he lives and wants to kill him if he doesn’t become a veterinarian. My guess is that tomorrow will be the worst day of Raymond K. Hessel’s life. Anxiety will make decisions for him, for the rest of his life, even more than poverty already has. let's face it, instead of celebrating what Tyler does, consider what actually happens to Raymond. There's no Marvel-style post-credits of him walking in a cap and gown, collecting a diploma. The last we see of the man, is a person in true fear, running from an incident


The protagonist ruining a man’s life to make a point to himself.
Why do some assume he’s gonna be a vet?

“Tomorrow will be the most beautiful day of Raymond K. Hessel’s life. His breakfast will taste better than any meal you and I have ever tasted.”

I doubt it. the clerk won’t be able to eat tonight because he was just held up at gunpoint. He’ll have to report this to the police and go through the bullshit hassle of getting a new license. He’ll probably be too terrified to sleep, afraid to walk on the streets at night alone, possibly suffer PTSD

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"..only people of color"

I can't believe someone praised an poster that uses THIS kind of terminology to describe an ASIAN man.

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Tyler ruins lives

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I have had a loaded gun pointed at me by someone ready and willing to kill me.

It's not a big deal to someone that isn't afraid to die (I'm looking forward to what people call 'death'). If I had been shot, I could've escaped this dreary world, so I would have welcomed it.

We resolved the situation by talking, in the end, and no one got hurt. (There was a misunderstanding involved that we were able to clear up)

Needless to say, I didn't get a trauma or Shell Shock (what kids call Post-Traumatic-Stress-Disorder these days).

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Shell shock went from being prolonged exposure to artillery fire to PTSD which includes being in a car crash. By the time we get to Gen A they'll need therapy for being startled. Kids need some hardship to develop mental muscle and walls so that every little thing doesn't send them spiraling out of control.

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Your a moron who thinks in Tyler's dumb fantasy, reality is that the clerk is suffering from PTSD as he was assaulted by a crazy madman who talks to himself and terrified.

But the point is Tyler isn't cool. Tyler is a complete monster. He sounds cool. He looks cool. You might think he acts cool, until you see what's going on underneath. Tyler represents every bad instinct, every hurtful thought, every violent impulse. His "cool" is a sound byte meant to distract you from the awful things he means to do for no better reason than because he can. He's a sociopath. Ego unleashed.

He represents selfishness, and violence. He's anger and chaos and fuck the world. He isn't about lashing out at authority, or trying to forge your own identity. He's about destructively acting out at everything you've labelled as hurtful, at everything that makes you a "victim", just so that you don't have to take real responsibility. Tyler isn't working from home because he's responsible, he's working from home because he's a terrorist.

it's a negative experience for the clerk and likely very traumatic. Most people do. It's the point of the scene, it establishes Tyler's lack of morality and twisted view of things. There always has been, but the movie makes it pretty clear the entire time that Tyler is a bad person who should not be emulated. Most normal people agreed the first time that yes, Norton/Pitt are traumatizing the store clerk and his little monologue about the clerk being better off for it is insane and backwards. I'm just saying, it's not a controversial take, it's the correct and agreed upon take of the film and the film itself supports that narrative.

It's like you're watching the villain of a movie do something bad and wrong and you're going 'yikes, I don't know about this one guys, that guy seems bad and wrong!' it's like... yeah.

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