Riddick a villain? - Pitch Black (2000) Discussion

[–] 12 years ago

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[–] DoctorBlacula 12 years ago

But in terms of onscreen stuff, what did he do?

It hardly counts if everything is just "oh, he's a bad guy, he's got a bad reputation." That doesn't really work.

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[–] fullhans1 12 years ago

It's true, we never really see him do any true evil stuff. But I actually think that's a good thing, because it would be difficult to root for him if we would see him do some heinous stuff.

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[–] DoctorBlacula 12 years ago

If he's a convict and a murderer and stuff, I feel like he needs to do something to kind of... justify that on screen? Even if it makes people have a harder time of rooting for him, that's the kind of character he is. Morally dubious.

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[–] 12 years ago

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[–] streaky-332-556545 12 years ago

"a man with morals who does the right thing"

The character is fairly obviously psychopathic. He does the right thing in relative terms purely through circumstance.

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[–] DoctorBlacula 12 years ago

I dunno. He seems to go out of his way to do the right thing a lot. Like saving Jack and stuff.

It feels like they had a great concept with the whole "bad guy as main character" thing, but they sort of... diluted it in the sequel when they thought the core appeal was Vin Diesel being a bad ass and not Vin Diesel being a generally bad guy who's also a bad ass.

It's more interesting than just another gruff, monosyllabic anti-hero.

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[–] 12 years ago

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[–] mokienatrix 12 years ago

"...but Riddick's moral code will not let him commit murder on a defenseless and non-threatening person."

I'd argue for an alternate interpretation: that Riddick's playing it pragmatic.

The opening monologue establishes a kind of cold-blooded willingness to wait-and-see--there's plenty of time for things to wrong and Riddick to take advantage of the situation. That doesn't necessarily mean killing everyone once he frees himself on the planet. Johns touches on this with his suggestion that they put off retrieving fuel cells, because he thinks Riddick will simply wait for them to do the work then either kill them and steal the shuttle, or steal it and leave them for dead.

Expanding on that interpretation, Riddick doesn't kill Johns because of his moral code, but because at some point he would have to kill him to make his escape. Johns lived until that point because it was convenient to Riddick for him to do so in the face of the larger threat. Johns suggested using the kid as bait and Riddick killed him not to protect an innocent, but to kill three birds with one stone--for bait, to rid himself of Johns and to take the reins of the group.

Riddick's an opportunist. Everyone else is a tool to get him to what he wants. Once he's within sight of the finish line, fuel cells in hand and shuttle within reach, he's happy to ditch them and leave them to die. It's no less villainous because he doesn't slit their throats personally.

It's Carolyn that challenges his moral code, such as it is, at the end when he's ready to repeat her choice (letting the others die to save himself) but she won't go along.

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[–] 12 years ago

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[–] mokienatrix 12 years ago

That's the fun of films: to some extent, it's up to the viewer to interpret what they're seeing on screen.

Where you see Riddick struggling over the morality of his actions throughout the film. I see Riddick coolly debating the next best course of action as events change. In an unknown environment, he was patiently letting others do the exploring, explaining and repairing of ships (and dying from baby monsters). Conservation of energy!

You see him aching for Johns to give him any excuse to kill him already. I see him playing it cool, and putting up with Johns because it made no sense to kill him at that point. Had he killed Johns then and there, the team would have stopped worrying about repairing the ship right away, and started worrying about defending themselves against this new threat right away. He's willing to put up with Johns until all the heavy lifting is done, basically.

You don't see a reason for him to save Jack except that he's bound by his own moral code to do so. I'll take that a step farther, since this point is plot-relevant: at some point, he figured out that Jack was a girl and bleeding, which suggests a moral reason, since she's a walking, talking, bleeding magnet for the creatures.

I see several practical and pragmatic reasons for saving Jack:
#1. She's still close enough to the safety of the group that it's not a big risk to do so, and he gets to check out his theory on the creatures' wonky heads at the same time.
#2. The more of the crew he loses en route to the working ship, the less cannon fodder he has for making his way to the ship. Conservation of resources!
#3. She's a walking, talking, bleeding magnet for the creatures, which means whoever she's with is going to be hemmed in at every step. That's half the work done for Riddick, as the group is effectively contained while he's still mobile, thanks to his night-vision eyeballs.

(If you go for outside info, the DVD extras state that Riddick has a soft spot for children, which would back you up on Jack--but also that Riddick's decision to leave the group was cold logic, as he "didn't think there was any way all of them could get off the planet alive" [TVTropes], which would seem to back me up on his morality. But I figure outside info is optional, as having someone tell you what something is supposed to mean takes half the fun out of watching and gleaning meaning for yourself.)

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[–] 12 years ago

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[–] all-things-otherworldly 11 years ago

I'm not saying mokie is right, but you're acting rather pretentious in responding with definitive statements about a fictional character. It's your opinion that those reasons aren't good enough for Riddick, not fact. You're welcome to your opinion, as the only opinion that is wrong is Twilight being better than Harry Potter, but everyone else is as well. Personally speaking, you may need to watch the movie again if you saw desperation in Riddick concerning Johns.

My personal theory is that Riddick saw something of himself in Jack, and that's why he chose to save her. I believe him to be a psychopath. That's not to say psychopaths can't calculatedly make decisions and bide their time, nor are they incapable of human attachment, but it always comes down, in the end, to what will more greatly serve their needs.

"Looks clear."

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[–] uberfox 11 years ago

Thing is even as a murderer you can become somewhat attached to people end up in survival with....

He wouldn't have saved Jack any other day but its the past experience with Jack and the fact hes on that planet with very few other people even if he only saved Jack to assert his own EGO to everybody else....

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[–] Zerose 11 years ago

Hero = do right things for right reasons or in accordance with the universal moral code. Anti-hero = do wrong things for right reasons or in accordance with his own moral code.

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[–] MrRazorz 12 years ago

He's really more of an anti-hero. But really, half the tension in the first film comes from the fact that we don't know if Riddick's going to help the group escape the planet, or just keep them around as long as they're useful and then abandon them. He actually shows every intention of doing the latter, until Fry shows up and convinces him otherwise. In fact there's every indication that Riddick himself doesn't know which way he's going to go until it comes to the crunch.

But since the first film is basically about Riddick's redemption, they talk about his rotten past without actually showing him do anything that evil.

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[–] Youmoron 12 years ago

Its not like he was going to use Jack as bait and steal the ship lol. Yeah hes a really nice guy.

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[–] uberfox 11 years ago

Well even murderers have their limits...

Certain murderers will only kill people who cross them others only kill men others only kill women others only kill kids others only kill boys and some will never kill a kid.

Riddick has his own views on what he will or will not kill blatantly.

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[–] ttaskmaster 11 years ago

Most people consider murderers to be thoroughly evil. Few even stop to think if it's deserved or not, especially with such an ambiguous character like Riddick.
But for just the superficial glance that trailer marketing permits, it's about being marooned on a planet, stuck between a murderer and possibly something worse... OOH, THE TENSION (go see the movie)!!

But once you're in the theatre and watching, you learn Riddick isn't neccesarily bad to begin with. You get your action-thriller film, but also something far more complex...

He introduces himself as "Richard B. Riddick, Convict, Murderer", but in a tongue-in-cheek fashion. I don't think he really believes believes himself a murderer because it's not him who defined it as a crime - It was whichever society he was in that defined it as unlawful killing and then labelled him a criminal for it. He's doing what's right by his own reasoning.

There is a wavering in his moral code, possibly because something comes up that he hadn't considered at the time. He's very astute and figures out people's intentions well before they act on them, so was surprised when Fry was so insistent on saving the other two. That inspired him. But then, that's part of being adaptable enough to survive where others wouldn't. His moral code adapts at the same time.

He possibly wrestles a bit between what he'd like to do and what is most pragmatic at the time and I daresay he's quite hypocritical at times. He most likely has his own sense of justice that also causes conflict - He has no problem with Fry dying to save the other two, but is torn apart when she dies helping him. He doesn't think that's right.

Overall, he's a very complex character and how you'd choose to classify him (hero, villain, antihero, or whatever) also changes depending on which context you're seeing him in. Similarly, his reactions seem to depend on how people treat him to begin with as well. Pretty damn cool, actually!

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[–] ninji19 11 years ago

I see 3 "villains" in this film really. Johns, Riddick, and Fry. None truly 'evil' per se, but each with their own agendas. Johns was just as manipulative and an opportunist as Riddick was. I think Fry and Riddick are virtually the same, morally. Both were willing to let others die to save themselves (but of course change over the course of the movie). Though I like the way the first half of the film centers on Riddick "appearing" so evil and find it funny when he plays into it as well, with his little introduction.

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[–] Artemis_Rules 11 years ago

In my eyes its clear that Riddick was a villain. He was a murdere, outlaw with a bounty on his head. He had prob done some evil stuff to not so evil people.

The reason why he was portrayed as the "good guy" here, was because they were all in the same boat. The fact that he actually tried to convince Carolyn to leave the rest in the cave to die, proves his intentions. He's not a good guy. He's a guy trying to take care of himself. Its teh sole reason why he stuck with the groub as long as he did. He left them when he realised that he no longer needed them.

The sequel kind portrays him as an anti hero/good guy. the movie tries to ignore his past and suddenly he's an special kind of space alien. way to ruin the movie.

But yeah. He is the bad guy in the movie, but we still root for him because Johns seems worse for some reason. Which is interesting, becuse if you think about it. Almost non of the leading cast are actually good. Carolyn tried to dump all tghe people to save her own ass, Johns got questible morals and is a sell sword. Riddick is a traitor and a convicted murdere.

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[–] kaskait 11 years ago

He is a bad man. And there are several scenes in the film that support his willingness to be totally selfish.

The only person holding him back from his own worse instincts is Carolyn Fry. It was Beauty who slew the Beast. Carolyn is like Riddick in many ways which is why he lets her live. And her battle to be a moral person is what inspires him. It shows him that people like they are, can change and be better.

I believe he also fell in love with her to whatever extent he is capable of love. When she died he transferred that affection to Jack but it transformed into a more brotherly/fatherly form. I'm sure that was one of the many disappointments Jack had with Riddick. She wanted what he felt for Carolyn.

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[–] ttaskmaster 11 years ago

He is a bad man. And there are several scenes in the film that support his willingness to be totally selfish.

Really?
Or is his instinct for self-preservation stronger than his other motivations due to a considerable capability in that area making it easy?

I daresay if you tested the human race in general, about 70% of people would readily abandon others to save themselves, particularly if they're as adept as Ridders. People are quite selfish in nature.

The fact that Fry was also that ready to do the same - in her case made easier by the ease and impersonality (if that's a real word) of simply pulling a lever - suggests it's more just human nature than anything else.
How often in films do people tell others, "Forget him, he's gone, leave him, etc", often when someone is not actually dead but cannot be easily helped at that moment?

The fact that Riddick does often struggle with the conflict between morality and instinct shows he's at least not all bad. Just trying to reconcile head and heart... pretty much like a normal person.

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[–] kaskait 11 years ago

During horrific events most people are too frightened and confused to react. But there are always incredible stories of normal, average people going out of their way to save fellow human beings in danger (9/11). Self-preservation is a figleaf to protect sociopaths/psychopaths.

What Fry attempted to do was beyond the pale and she was rightly called out on it by her colleague. A ship's captain, its officers and its crew NEVER abandon the passengers or ship. Fry was wrong and learned how wrong she was throughout the film.

Riddick never had a struggle with his decisions until he met Fry. Fry caused him to question his decisions because she began to question hers. Because she was like him and could change meant that he could as well.

The arc of the films is about Riddick regaining his humanity.

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[–] ttaskmaster 11 years ago

But there are always incredible stories of normal, average people going out of their way to save fellow human beings in danger

Yes, but they are the exception and why they're so incredible. Balance that against how many people find profitable opportunities during horrific events...

There are also plenty of accounts and outright studies about how many and how easily people will screw everyone else over to save their own hides.
Go read up on your war history and see the attrocities committed there, see the decisions made by officers that knowingly get their men killed, see how many civilians were abused for fun and count that against every time a soldier gives some local kid a candy bar.

Or just go out for a drive and see how often other drivers behave without any regard for your safety. See how little the average person truly values your life. Some will go so far as ramming you off the road just so they can get to the mall in time for the Black Friday sales or something!

Self-preservation is a figleaf to protect sociopaths/psychopaths.

Says who?
That's about a quarter of humanity you just condemned there, mate, along with a great deal of the Natural world... Well done.

A ship's captain, its officers and its crew NEVER abandon the passengers or ship.

Oh really?
In that case, you might wanna start by telling this to the people who lost their lives on the Titanic. 195 crew survived where 1514 other people were left, 821 of those being passengers including 106 women and 53 children.
The 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th officers all survived, while hundreds of passengers were knowingly left to die.
It's a nice romantic delusion, but far from the reality of things. While some crew do follow this... you'd likely be surprised by how many others do not.

Humanity in general is a nasty, selfish piece of work, especially in this modern day where lives can only be saved if someone coughs up the cash for the priviledge... where charities 'battle to save' their cause by taking up to 90% of their donations received as personal payments... where the governments of said charities tax the recipients up to three times the amount of the actual donation, trippling their national debt instead of helping them...
Humanity is not as cool as you think, we're just a virus with shoes.

Riddick never had a struggle with his decisions until he met Fry.

Well yeah - Because he'd never had to care about anyone else but himself and people who were trying to kill him. Do not assume that he 'murdered' some innocent person, either. Given that he grew up in a penal establishment, it's more likely he started out stealing to survive and ended up killing either a fellow con or a corrupt guard.

For possibly the first time in his life, he's got the option of saving someone without having to worry about them stabbing him in the back. It's totally foreign to him and greatly against his better judgement but he steps up quite readily for such an "evil" man, wouldn't you think?

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[–] !!!deleted!!! (4524359) 11 years ago

" Self-preservation is a figleaf to protect sociopaths/psychopaths. "

That's a load of BS. Self-preservation is an instinct pretty much all of us have. You need a ton of training to go against it in dangerous situations. In a moment of panic people often become very selfish. Their logical brain shuts down and they fight only for their own survival. Examples of this would be people dragging others down with them while drowning. They can't help it. It doesn't make them sociopaths.

Riddick was clearly not a psychopath though. He obviously had empathy for others and cared what happened to them. He put himself at risk for the sake of others even though he didn't have to. That's not something a psychopath does.

He might be a ruthless man but that doesn't mean you're a psychopath. The opposite is also true, a large portion of the population are psychopaths but most of them have never harmed anyone.

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[–] ttaskmaster 11 years ago

And to top it off, there's a video doing the rounds on social media sites again.
Two guys in an elevator - The first pretends to be strangling the second, while the second pleas for help. They spring this on whoever is unsuspectingly just waiting for the elevator to arrive. The experiment/stunt is designed to see what people do and how they respond.

The vast majority of people see one guy trying to kill another and back away in fear. Many show no outward fear and mince off, like it's someone making a phonecall and simply none of their business. Only a few step in and try to help, either kicking the *beep* out of the 'murderer', batting him with umbrellas and shopping bags or trying to drag him off. About twice the number of helpers simply stand there filming it on their *beep* smartphones...

Now tell me how wonderfully altruistic humans are! :-)

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[–] mountaindewslave 11 years ago

OP you fail to grasp the character
Riddick is the definition of anti hero to the extreme
he is technichally the 'hero' of the story or maybe the better word is 'protagonist'
he's the main character
but he is not a good man
why do you think he is so wanted in the galaxy?
he murders people, he is supposed to be somewhat missing it in his brain
psychotic. obviously.
he almost seems to enjoy the circumstances in Pitch Black, less seemingly because he can escape but more possibly because death and adversary excite him

he is clearly an evil man but the end of the film portrays him as possibly finding a different note, he seems to regret his selfishness and all because of his feelings toward someone he'd known for days

his character is supposed to develop in the climax of Pitch Black but make no mistake he is not an honorable or noble character
Riddick cares about himself
pure and simple
at the end of Pitch Black the question is left in the air if he truly has changed
and Chronicles obviously tried to turn him into a hero
but as far as Pitch Black is it is quite BLACK AND WHITE that he is not the good guy
it's more a character study

If i go crazy will you still call me Superman?

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[–] ttaskmaster 11 years ago

He's not a particularly good man, no, but is he actually evil?

If he was evil, as people keep claiming, then why didn't he kill the others when he clearly had the opportunity? He had many chances to drop someone, knowing full well he'd not even be seen let alone caught and this even before the creatures showed up. Evil Riddick would have done just that.

And the 'Murderer' thing again... His delivery of that line is positively dripping with sarcasm. At the worst, I'd suspect it was a technicality that convicted him, similar to how soldiers have been executed for 'murdering' a former enemy because they fired 10 minutes after the Cease Fire was signed in some farway place.

It's mostly a study on characters and perceptions of morality. Everyone thinks Johns is a goody cop guy until we find out his secrets... He's nothing more that Riddick with a licence to kill loose perps. Only reason he doesn't is because they're probably worth more alive.

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[–] s-k-returns-1 11 years ago

You guys should really play the Chronicles of Riddick video games.

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[–] ttaskmaster 11 years ago

Are they on PC, or just console?

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[–] s-k-returns-1 11 years ago

I got Chronicles of Riddick: Assault on Dark Athena on PC from gog.com, and it comes with an updated version of CoR: Escape From Butcher Bay. So, you get both games in one if you get the sequel.

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[–] all-things-otherworldly 11 years ago

If evil people were to try and murder as much as possible, given the opportunity, there'd be a heck of a lot more dead people. You don't have to act on every opportunity to be evil. Not to say Riddick is inherently evil, the world is not black and white, merely shades of grey, so who's to say?

"Looks clear."

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