German or Dutch?


Jake Roedel was he a German or a Dutchman?
It might be that Americans think its all the same, because most have no clue about how Europe looks like, but it sure aint the same. A Dutchman (Dutchy) is from The Netherlands an not from Germany. So what about Jake Roedel? At the beginning it is said that he is German, in the middle he is Dutch and later he is German again. Throughout the whole film he is called 'Dutchy' by the group he is riding with.....
Bit confusing here.
My advise tho the script writer and all other writers: Do some good research! Especially when its about an historic item!

I am Dutch myself and we don't like to be called German ans as far as I know Germans don't like to be called Dutch either.

reply

I'm not too sure that this is an error on the part of the script-writers: I think it is deliberate on their parts to show the lack of concern (or ignorance) that relatively simple, uncosmopolitan farming folk in Missouri would have.

Unpleasant as it may be to hear this, but a lot of people (in the modern era) cannot tell or understand the difference between Dutch and Germans, and even if they did know/appreciate the difference, “Dutchy” rolls off the tongue a lot easier than “Deutchie”.

I think this would have been more-so true 100+ years ago when it was rare for people to travel, so the opportunity to meet Germans and Dutch, and therefore understand the not-too-subtle differences between the peoples, would not have presented itself.

reply

Duuuude, c´mon!! I think the dutch guy who postet first, is absolutely right. It´s just a matter of fact that you american guys(in the case of you really are from the states) don´t know anything about europe!! All you get to hear and all you want to hear, is stuff about world war II and thats it ....

I´m an Englishman, but my girlfried is German, and I can tell u between Netherlands and Germany is a huge different. First of all Germany is 10-times bigger, and in they way of innovation or classic music, or physics and math, Germany forged the fate of modern society as far as America, China and we Brits did it. But Netherlands did a great job with colonialization in the west and east .... well, I dont know if Germans dont like to be called Dutch(my wife actually has a lot of dutch friends ..) but I could understand, if they would! ;)
I got a lot of German friends too and I only love to kick ther ass** if they beat us up in soccer .... but thats just sports, man! So called it fun if u like!

Anyway, what would u guys think if they call a guy from new york(doesn't matter which movie) an englishman...... 20 min later, they tell u he´s from canada, huh? and at the end ... he´s australian! It´s not the same cause we guys do all speak english, is it?
Have a good night, so far.

reply

Stop painting all Americans with the same brush, dude. It is so narrow-minded of you. Yes, I dare say there are plenty that have never travelled through Europe but there are plenty that have, and they tend to be very broad-minded and outgoing. Whatever are you talking about when you say that all Americans “get to hear and all you want to hear, is stuff about world war II and thats it”? You really are making yourself sound like an Englishman bigot with sweeping generalisations like that.

So let me ask you, Englishman, how DO you tell the difference between a German and a Dutchman? Having travelled extensively throughout Europe myself many times and camped at many campsites that tend to be quite full of Germans AND Dutch, I can tell the two people apart in many ways. Hence the phrase: “not-too-subtle differences” in my first post. But I’d like to hear from you how it is done, particularly if you are a Missouri farmer in the early 1860s who has never left his own county (never mind country) and you are talking to a second generation immigrant (as I think Jake was) who has an accent identical to your own. I suppose you can generalise about looks: Dutch tend to be taller and blonder, but you do get tall, blonde Germans so this won’t work all the time. If I cannot see a caravan or look at their car licence plates therefore, it may take me a while to tell two groups apart…I’m pretty sure that the Roedel’s didn’t have German OR Dutch plates, but I’m not too sure about the caravan, though….

Bearing in mind that most Europeans speak English with a strong accent (occasionally with a strong Englishman`s or American accent) I have yet to meet the person who can speak to anybody from Continental Europe, in English, and work out what country that person hails from simply by listening to his/her voice. But of course you’ll know all about this, having a German girlfried AND a wife with lots of Dutch friends (but what I really want to know is, does your wife know your German girlfried, Englishman, or are you getting yourself confused, as your German girlfried is actually one of your wife's Dutch friends?). And your German friends that you “only love to kick ther ass** if they beat you up in soccer”. Let’s not forget about them too…or the fact that no Englishman actually plays soccer…or the fact that although England regularly gets BEATEN by Germany playing football they seldom get BEATEN UP by them on the pitch...or the fact that no Englishman would actually write "kick ther ass** ", or "dude" (or "c'mon" for that matter), or ` as an apostrophe, or....!

By the way, why don't you ask your many German friends if they mind being called "Dutch", then you could answer your own sort-of question which you raised.

And as for that last sort-of question you asked at the end, the answer is, of course it’s all the same: us guys think that we’ll make such a person as you’re describing one of the biggest paid stars in Hollywood…just look at what happened to Mel Gibson (although I don’t recall if he ever played the part of a Canadian) and Russel Crowe, (although he is from New Zealand - though no-one can actually tell the difference ;-) ).

And by the way, it’s not “Canadian, huh?”, it’s “Canadian, eh?”

Keep it real, mijn vriend van Engelsman/mein Engländerfreund!

reply

The nickname of "Dutchie' for the German-American Jake Roedel in this film is historically accurate.

Not just Missouri farmers, but mainstream Americans generally used "Dutch" as a term for Germans as well as Dutchmen.

The XI Corps of the Army of the Potomac, consisting primarily (though far from entirely) of German and German-American stock, was (especially after the corps' ill-fated turns at Chancellorsville and Gettysburg) often derided as "damn Dutchmen" by their fellow soldiers. It was a crude time in many ways.

The Troika of Irrelevancy: bringing off-topic enlightenment to the masses since 2006

reply

If you'll recall Zulu, the Swiss character Schiess got called "Dutchie" repeatedly by his British colleagues. Presumably a corruption of "Deutsch."

"Paper can be ripped - like your HEAD!"

reply

Haha...good call out on this hammerhead. Englishmen would also not use cause in place of "because". To quote him "...It´s not the same cause we guys do all speak english, is it?". Even that grammar is awkward and decidedly un-British.

reply

Huh...so what do YOU know about Wyoming and Colorado smart guy? Just these two states combined are WAY bigger than all of Germany.

reply

Before you go lumping all Americans into your ignorant statement you might want to learn a little bit about what Germans call themselves in their own country. As to 'uncosmopolitan farming folk in Missouri' you might want to READ up a bit more on American history and not put too much into fictional film to get your historical references.

reply

He was German. The term "Dutch" or "Dutchie," though inacurate, was common throughout America in the 18th and 19th centuries to refer to German immigrants.

reply

After the first wedding there is a dialogue in the factory between Jake Roedel and his Father, and you can clearly hear Father's argument 'you are a German descent'. It is never mentioned again but I think it is clear enough in the film.

reply

Dutch is an old American for Deutsch (German)

SIMPLE AS THAT.


See Pennsylvania Dutch: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Dutch

reply

Wow you truly are an idiot. You start the argument off using the word ain't. I checked the message boards after watching this movie because I knew some simple person would start an argument. It a simple term or nickname, and it is not longer used unless your Amish. The Amish consider themsevles the deutch even though they are of German decent. I assume you bumpkins making this argument lack historical backgrounds or have ever lived in the Midwest. On a final note, please stop bashing Americans, I have been all over the world and went to college in France. I'd bet a months paycheck 99% of Europeans could not even name and place half of the states of the Union.

reply

There's no need to be abusive. The original poster had no way of knowing such a specific instance of American vernacular speech (and English isn't his native language). Your own post isn't exactly an example of great grammar. As others have mentioned, Germans were often referred to as Dutch or Dutchie, probably a mangling of Deutsch. My own grandfather was referred to as Dutch, and he was born in 1900, a third or fourth generation American. The use of the term wasn't limited to the 19th century.

reply

sirduhon wrote:The Amish consider themsevles the deutch even though they are of German decent.

Are you kidding?
What else but 'the deutch' should they consider themselves. Deutch (originally deutsch, dunno if you spelled it wrong or the word underwent some transformation over the centuries) is how the Germans call themselves.
deutsch = german, Deutschland = Germany.
People of dutch descent probably would call themselves 'Nederlanders'.

didn't pay that much attention on your trip through Europe, did you?

Jake Roedel's comrades are well aware of his german origins, so by calling him dutchie, they don't assume he is from the Netherlands (guess most of them aint even aware such a country exists). Just fits their tongues better than 'deutschie' would.

reply

Dutch, in American use, meant a German = taken from the German word "Deutsch".

How many people of Netherlands nationality fought in the ACW ? Not too many.

On the other hand, German immigrants were plentiful and together with the Irish, formed the largest foerign contingents in the Union and Confederate armies.

Various German regiments were raised on both sides. The Union had various German units from New York and Wisconsin for a start, Missouri Germans also favoured the North and formed regiments too. The South had regiments of German background, including a Louisiana Jager regiment from New Orleans who wore brown short jackets and mouse-grey pants and kepis.

German regiments weren't always highly regarded by American observers and their commanders were a mixed bag too. Fritz Sigel of New York, a political general, was probably the most famous of the German commanders. Talking of Union German units, one Union American observer said that he had no time for the "Dutch" troops of the Union Army.

Some of the most famous German Union regiments were the 40th New York Infantry (Mozart Regiment), the 41st NY Infantry(De Kalb/Jager Regt), 45th NY Infantry (5th German Rifles), 52nd NY Infantry (German Rangers - Sigel Infantry), 54th NY Infantry.

One of General Lee's most trusted aides was a huge Prussian officer called Heros Von Borke, who wielded his enormous Prussian cavalry sabre during the battle of Brandy Station in June 1863, just before Gettysburg.


"S h i t happens in mysterious ways, its wonders to perform"

reply

What else but 'the deutch' should they consider themselves. Deutch (originally deutsch, dunno if you spelled it wrong or the word underwent some transformation over the centuries) is how the Germans call themselves.
deutsch = german, Deutschland = Germany.
People of dutch descent probably would call themselves 'Nederlanders'.

I don't know about you but the OP (being dutch) should know that Dutch derives from Deutsch. They even sing it in their won national anthem William of Nassau, scion Of a German and ancient line,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Het_Wilhelmus#Interpretation
"Duytsch"
The word "Duytschen" in the first stanza as a reference to William's roots, whose modern Dutch equivalent, "Duits", exclusively means "German", could refer to William's ancestral house (Nassau) as well as to the lands of the Holy Roman Empire at large, including the Netherlands; scholars have pointed out that a sharp distinction between Duits ("German") and Diets ("Dutch"), which are dialectical variants of the same word, is unlikely to have existed in 16th-century usage.[15]

-
"It's called the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe in it".

reply

Jake Roedel's comrades are well aware of his german origins, so by calling him dutchie, they don't assume he is from the Netherlands (guess most of them aint even aware such a country exists). Just fits their tongues better than 'deutschie' would.

Why are you all making stuff up in your heads instead of actually researching this. The term Dutchie was used for Germans because the Dutch language is nearly identical to Old Low German, they were using linguistic groupings instead of nationalities, which was common then e.g. German speakings living in, say, Galicia weren't called Rutherians, or Polish, or Ukrainians, or even Austrians, which they properly were, but German based on the language they spoke.

reply

Why all so aggressive?

First it is clear he is German, said a few times through this movie. I do not know, why some terms in the English language, has become less obvious then in the original one!

First why call people from the Netherlands "Dutch". In the original language this is "nederlanders", sometimes also referred to as "hollanders" (from Holland part of the Netherlands)

But Germany is, called Deutchland in German and the language "Deutch". Again I not know how Dutch has become the name for the language of the Netherlands.
Maybe all a mistake. The language has a lot of similarities with German, but it still very different from it, if you know the two languages.

So an American would refer to German person, and that person would say "Ich bin Deutch".That makes more sense to the character been called "Dutch", even if he were German.

reply

"I'd bet a months paycheck 99% of Europeans could not even name and place half of the states of the Union."

What a stupid comment, why would they? Would you expect the average American to know all the provinces or regional areas of Russia, or France, or Germany?? They'd be lucky to even be able to place any of those countries in the correct continent on a map, or even the right hemisphere geography is so poorly taught in the USA.

reply

To add to the mix:

The Pennsylvania Dutch are the descendants of Germanic peoples who emigrated to the U.S. (primarily to Pennsylvania), from Germany, Switzerland and The Low Countries prior to 1800. The Dutch are generally regarded as one of several Germanic peoples, which explains the corruption of the German word Deutsch to Dutch; therefore, the so-called Pennsylvania Dutch are really Pennsylvania Germans. The German, Deutsch, the archaic Dutch, Deitsch, and the modern Dutch, Duits, each mean 'German' yet are all cognates of the English, 'Dutch'. Hostetler (1993) gives the origin of 'Dutch' as a "folk-rendering" of 'Deitsch'.[2]

reply

At the time Roedel moved to America "Germany" didn't exist as it does now, it was several smaller kingdoms. A guy from somewhere in that region may be given the nickname Dutch or Dutchy as Americans were more familiar with the similar sounding Dutch names and language as Dutch people had been there as long as the English. It is actually a very accurate film. poor country people who mostly can't read don't know where alot of places and people are now, never mind 150 years ago.

reply

You should also know that the Dutch language, I mean the language of Netherlands is basically the Western dialect of Low German, i.e. North German.

reply

These Union song lyrics of the day show that Dutch was what they were called.
Harriet Beecher Stowe uses the word German in her book though. I don't think there was any confusion or prejudice attached to using the word Dutch.

Col Mulligan's brigade
They were never yet afraid,
Fought at Lexington five days without complaining;
Fed the rebels shell and shot
Till they out of water got
Then surrendered up their happy land of Canaan

There's the "Dutch Comany"
Who are fighting for the free
When in battle every nerve they are straining
When it comes to run away
They will tell you "nix furstay!"
They re an honor to our happy land of Canaan

reply

Yes, exactly, linguistically they are German, regardless of the later concept of nationality that grouped them differently. It seems really strange that the OP if he really is Dutch wouldn't know this, is their educational system intentionally that deficient in their own history?

reply

The script writers did their research about how non-Germans ignorantly pronounce Germans words. Germany is Deutschland, and Germans are called Deutsch (pronounced Doytch). Non-Germans started called "Deutsch" as "Dutch." The German Amish that settled in Pennsylvania are called Pennsylvania Dutch although they technically are Pennsylvania Deutsch.

It's entirely plausible that the German, Roedel (also incorrectly pronounced by everyone in the film as Roe-DELL when in German it's pronounced RAY-dell) was called "Dutchie" out of ignorance.

reply

Even you have this wrong, my friend. You are right in that the Pennsylvania Dutch are actually Pennsylvania Germans which is indeed very misleading TODAY. I am quite certain that most of my fellow Americans think that the Amish are Dutch descendants not German.

However, EVERYONE in the movie knew that Roedell was German. It was a huge sticking point made over and over in the film. They 'Americanized' the pronunciation. No one thought Roedell was from The Netherlands.

reply

incorrectly pronounced by everyone in the film as Roe-DELL when in German it's pronounced RAY-dell

This is not a correct description, or I don't get you right.
The difference is that in the movie the americans pronounce the german word/name ROEDEL putting the accent onto the second syllable (which makes it sound french!) while the correct german way to pronounce it would be to put the accent onto the first syllable, ROEDEL making the same melody like Fisher or Butler or whatever.
Anyway, there is noy way to pronounce RAY- instead of ROE-.


English is not my first language. Any corrections are welcome.

reply