MovieChat Forums > Ride with the Devil (1999) Discussion > Treatment of slavery and racism in this ...

Treatment of slavery and racism in this film


Unless I'm forgetting something important, I'd say the whole topic was pretty much whitewashed (pardon the pun).

All the characters used the "N" word to describe blacks and Holt was looked upon with obvious disgust by some of the characters, but that was about it. The only slaves I saw were briefly shown during the beginning of the wedding scene -- fixing food and setting tables.

I think it's fair to say that there was a bit more to slavery than that and also that an opportunity was lost to provide some additional context as to why the area became a battleground.

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Unfortunately, you missed the point of the movie completely. The Missouri guerrilla war, for the most part, wasn't fought because of political ideologies of states' rights vs. the federal government, or especially vs. slaveholding vs. abolitionism, but rather it was one large blood feud. Rodel and Chiles fought because they were drawn in because of PERSONAL atrocities. Yes, they had Southern sympahties, but slavery was nowhere on the radar for their taking up arms against the Union. It is unfortunate that school teachers today teach that the reason for the war was slavery and ignore the chief reasons because of political correctness.

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Pro and anti-slavery forces didn't move into the area and start committing atrocities against each other because there were already personal atrocities being committed. They moved into the area and started fighting with each other because the actions of Congress in trying to craft a compromise turned it into a battleground over state's rights and slavery.

However the purpose of my post had to do with the depiction of slavery in this movie and the lost opportunity to provide additional context. Not that it was or should have been the central point of the movie, but at the same time it should not have been depicted as mere set decoration either.

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My problem concerning this movie is how critics portrayed it because of the character Holt. They were all angry over the fact of a black man fighting for the Confederates and killing other black men. Hmmm....seems like that happened an awful lot especially towards the end of the war. Granted, there was very few blacks who fought for the cause that Holt did, but many were hired by the Confederates to serve for either freedom, money, land, or all of the above. I think the amount of slavery portrayed was lacking but could still be considered realistic, speaking that Missouri was a borderline state and had much less to do with slavery (the issue only became black and white once the going got tough and lines had to be drawn), and more to do with what the father in law of Jewel's character said about the Union wanting everyone to live the same free thinking way they do, and the Conf. only caring about each person's problems. Personally, either side in this war didn't seem very appealing and I'd only choose the Union for its abolitionist movement, and had I been a Northerner back then I probably wouldn't have cared one way or another despite how I was brought up in modern times.

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I may be quite wrong about this, and my US history is a bit shaky since I was educated in the UK K through University, really only coming back to the US for vacations, but I understood that the root cause of the civil war was the northern businessmen wanting to abolish slavery because they found the southern competition too stiff, on account of actually having to pay their employees wages (such as they were) whereas the southern business people got free labor. I'm sure many of the abolitionists were good judeo-christians who really believed that they were doing God's work, which they were, of course, but I wouldn't mind betting that if the northern factory owners had been able to work out a way NOT to pay their workers, we'd still have slavery today.

Then of course there was the question of the south wanting to secede so that they could go on doing things the way they always had, and Abe Lincoln being just as determined to hold the union together.

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Hahahaha! Don't worry; you know more about American history than most Americans!

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5 years later and I still have to agree. Americans don't know their own history.

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Hard to look past the man's skin. Even in this day and age. I am truly digging your oratory though.

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Why ruin historical accuracy when there is a political point to be made? Basically, there just wasn't the density of slaves in Missouri that there was in the Deep South like Alabama, Mississippi and Georgia. The director told his story, sorry if the facts disagree with your idea of "how it shoulda been". If you want political statements go watch "Glory".

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Just wanted to say that this is a wonderful rebuttal.
Lincoln didn't want to lose Missouri to the Confederacy (and the Mississippi River), so he sent men to keep it from happening. Escalation ensued and battles fought. Missouri simply did not have a strong history of slavery.

"Glory", while good enough entertainment, was definitely a politically-correct (as-in "biased") way of rewriting history.

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Actually, the chief reason for the war was in fact slavery. States Rights, etc., were all centered around the slavery issue.

However, you may well be right about the Missouri situation.

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Actually, it was the fact that the North invaded the South and the South fought back.

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[deleted]

there will always be uneducated and ignorant people who choose not to learn facts about their own american history, what can you do?


the winners of wars write history.

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Actually, it was the fact that the North invaded the South and the South fought back.


Except that the North did not "invade" the South until after the South fired upon Federal forces in Federal territory.



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[deleted]

Warships bringing non-military supplies so the garrison wouldn't starve, as the South Carolina leaders were informed by Lincoln's emissaries.

With some soldiers along in case Southern belligerence made their use necessary. (As it turned out the belligerence started before the ships got there, and they could do naught but sit by and watch the fort get bombarded.)

I'm not even going to call that a "nice try," Reb, since we've been over this ground many times before and you still keep trying to propagate half-truths and flat-out lies.

The Troika of Irrelevancy: bringing off-topic enlightenment to the masses since 2006

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North invading the south. hmmm

How do you invade your own country?

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Especially when that part of the country is going around starting wars and causing chaos?

Seriously. The war of "northern aggression" is a myth and while this movie dwells little on the causes for the Civil War other than establishing slavery is wrong, it says the war was futile. Because for those fighting it, it was what they were ordered to do. Southern boys (like those in this movie) were tricked into dying to defend their homes because their leaders had seceded and started a war. There was no invasion. It was putting down a rebellion.

Now, why did the southern states form the Confederacy in an attempt to secede from the Union? Well the southern rewriting says because of states' rights. However, if you look at the right they were afraid of losing it began with an S and ended with LAVERY. Bleeding Kansas, the Compromise of 1850, the Slave Fugitive Laws, the fear of making California a state as it would mean more free states to slave states (which led eventually to bleeding Kansas, even though making it an election was against the Congressionally approved Missouri Compromise) all helped build up to this. Actually it probably began when establishing black men were free men was removed from the Declaration of Independence in Philadelphia in 1776 and when the Continental Congress agreed to a 3/5 Compromise in 1787 and put off addressing the "virtues" of the trade for at least twenty years.

SC announced its secession after Lincoln's election. This was because he was part of the new progressive/liberal Republican Party. Lincoln of course did not intend to abolish slavery, but wanted to contain it and continue making territories free states. In fear their voice would be diminished Congress and not accepting the democratic process SC seceded and were the ones months later to fire upon Fort Sumter in 1861.

The north invading and slavery being a minor factor are fallicies written by those who tend to sympathize with a cause that involved destroying a Union that they now "love" so ferociously that anyone who criticizes its current leadership is unpatriotic in their eyes.

Ironic?

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As such a passionate Reb I take it you've read the secession declarations of Georgia, SC, Mississippi, and Texas? Funnily enough, the framers of secession all seemed to think they were doing it to preserve slavery. But then, I guess you know better.

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Funny how most Southern sympathizers pretend to know the facts, then become quiet when someone like @Colkitto calls out their nonsense revisions.

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True my friend. As a Black-American I find it strange that the conservatives are so in denial when it comes to slavery,Jim Crow,Civil Rights,Obama etc. The wars in Missouri and Kansas is because of slavery. No southerner or supporter of the South would let a Black man near a gun either to do their dirty work or defend them against say the supporters of John Brown. Jesse James was a one of those men who fought against Union supporters.

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At its highest point, about 4% of the South had slaves. There were black slave owners as well. What were the other 96% fighting for? If u say the top percent control the people, like the 1% does now, I understand. But to say the North engaged the South to free the slave is just PC sequacious rhetoric. Lincoln stated if I could have won the war with out freeing 1 slave I would have done it. If u doubt the validity of this post; please feel free to use your choice of web browser to fact check.

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Re: Treatment of slavery and racism in this film
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by
jaymcc445
» 4 days ago (Mon Jun 30 2014 03:49:32)
IMDb member since June 2007
At its highest point, about 4% of the South had slaves. There were black slave owners as well. What were the other 96% fighting for? If u say the top percent control the people, like the 1% does now, I understand. But to say the North engaged the South to free the slave is just PC sequacious rhetoric. Lincoln stated if I could have won the war with out freeing 1 slave I would have done it. If u doubt the validity of this post; please feel free to use your choice of web browser to fact check.


Sure, Lincoln was about preserving the Union first. But one quotation taken out of context does nothing to refute the fact that the war was fought over the preservation of slavery and its expansion into the west. The treasonous southerners who led the secession movement were all about preserving slavery, and they were concerned that the US would end slavery.

Quoted here are the first two paragraphs of the declaration issued by the State of Mississippi of why it was attempting to secede from the United States of America.

A Declaration of the Immediate Causes which Induce and Justify the Secession of the State of Mississippi from the Federal Union

In the momentous step, which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.




Source: http://www.civil-war.net/pages/mississippi_declaration.asp

The declaration issued by the State of Texas was lengthier and gave more detail. Here are some pertinent quotations. Click on the link following th quotation box to read the whole document:
A Declaration of the Causes which Impel the State of Texas to Secede from the Federal Union



The controlling majority of the Federal Government, under various pretences and disguises, has so administered the same as to exclude the citizens of the Southern States, unless under odious and unconstitutional restrictions, from all the immense territory owned in common by all the States on the Pacific Ocean, for the avowed purpose of acquiring sufficient power in the common government to use it as a means of destroying the institutions of Texas and her sister slaveholding States.


Note that the first grievance is that citizens of Texas cannot bring their slaves with them to settle US territories that are not states. And so, the spread of slavery is the first issue.

Continuing:

By the disloyalty of the Northern States and their citizens and the imbecility of the Federal Government, infamous combinations of incendiaries and outlaws have been permitted in those States and the common territory of Kansas to trample upon the federal laws, to war upon the lives and property of Southern citizens in that territory, and finally, by violence and mob law, to usurp the possession of the same as exclusively the property of the Northern States.


And so, the second grievance is specifically that Texans have allegedly been deprived of their property (slaves) when in Kansas.

The Federal Government, while but partially under the control of these our unnatural and sectional enemies, has for years almost entirely failed to protect the lives and property of the people of Texas against the Indian savages on our border, and more recently against the murderous forays of banditti from the neighboring territory of Mexico; and when our State government has expended large amounts for such purpose, the Federal Government has refuse reimbursement therefore, thus rendering our condition more insecure and harassing than it was during the existence of the Republic of Texas.


Third grievance - the north has failed to subsidize Texas law enforcement (putting down of bandits) and genocide (driving out and/or killing the natives). At least that one is not obviously about slavery, but it does blame northerners for not helping Texas enough.

These and other wrongs we have patiently borne in the vain hope that a returning sense of justice and humanity would induce a different course of administration.

When we advert to the course of individual non-slaveholding States, and that a majority of their citizens, our grievances assume far greater magnitude.

The States of Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Wisconsin, Michigan and Iowa, by solemn legislative enactments, have deliberately, directly or indirectly violated the 3rd clause of the 2nd section of the 4th article [the fugitive slave clause] of the federal constitution, and laws passed in pursuance thereof; thereby annulling a material provision of the compact, designed by its framers to perpetuate the amity between the members of the confederacy and to secure the rights of the slave-holding States in their domestic institutions - a provision founded in justice and wisdom, and without the enforcement of which the compact fails to accomplish the object of its creation. Some of those States have imposed high fines and degrading penalties upon any of their citizens or officers who may carry out in good faith that provision of the compact, or the federal laws enacted in accordance therewith.


Again, it is about slavery. This grievance has to do with the charge that the listed northern states apparently have not been sufficiently diligent in helping Texans maintain the captivity of the few slaves who have managed to escape.

In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color - a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States.

For years past this abolition organization has been actively sowing the seeds of discord through the Union, and has rendered the federal congress the arena for spreading firebrands and hatred between the slave-holding and non-slaveholding States.

* * *

And, finally, by the combined sectional vote of the seventeen non-slaveholding States, they have elected as president and vice-president of the whole confederacy two men whose chief claims to such high positions are their approval of these long continued wrongs, and their pledges to continue them to the final consummation of these schemes for the ruin of the slave-holding States.

In view of these and many other facts, it is meet that our own views should be distinctly proclaimed.

We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.

That in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states.

* * *


Source: http://www.civil-war.net/pages/texas_declaration.asp

And so, Texas declared that the major reason was the preservation and expansion of slavery. And, in addition, the federal government wasn't giving them enough aid.

The reader is encouraged to explore the other states declarations as to the cause of secession, also avaiable at the same web site linked above, and elsewhere.

Now, Even giving some credence to the purported "states' rights" argument, the emphasis in the confederacy was on the right of the rebellious states to decide if it was lawful to enslave and own humans as property, and to treat such property as they would. However, the "states rights" argument, itself, does not withstand scrutiny.

Here is some history to consider from the confederate constitution:
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_csa.asp

Article I, Section 9, Clauses 1 and 2:

The importation of negroes of the African race from any foreign country other than the slaveholding States or Territories of the United States of America, is hereby forbidden; and Congress is required to pass such laws as shall effectually prevent the same.

Congress shall also have power to prohibit the introduction of slaves from any State not a member of, or Territory not belonging to, this Confederacy.



Article I, Section 9, Clause 4:

No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.



Notable in the foregoing is that it specifically guarantees the right to own "negro" slaves. Ownership of slaves of other races may or may not be banned, but the right to own "negro" slaves was to be forever. Thus the confederate constitution not only defined the confederacy itself by slavery, but also by racism.

In fact, even if the argument were to be made that Article I, Section 9, Clause 4 applied only to the confederate government and not to the individual states -a dubious position to begin with - it is apparent that no state could exercise a "state's right" to prohibit slavery within its borders inasmuch as the citiziens of the other states were guaranteed a right to "transit and sojourn" in any state "secure in the right of property in said slaves," as provided in Article IV, Section 2, Clause 1:

Article IV, Section 2, Clause 1:

The citizens of each State shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States; and shall have the right of transit and sojourn in any State of this Confederacy, with their slaves and other property; and the right of property in said slaves shall not be thereby impaired.


Could a state that outlawed slavery within its borders then prohibit a slaveholder from another state from having those slaves work while in "transit or sojourn" status? That would likely be held to be an impairment of the right of property. And the definition of "transit or sojourn" would be a matter of the confederate supreme court to decide. So, effectively, "negro slavery" could not be prohibited by any individual state when the law could easily be circumvented by use of slaves putatively owned by a citizen of another state and simply "transiting" or "sojourning" in the other state.

Note, then, the hypocrisy of the "states rights" argument. While among the revisionists the supposed cause for which the confederacy fought was that the states have the supposed retained sovereignty or autonomy to decide on the matter of slavery, not the federal government, the confederate constitution enshrined a prohibition on any state's right to settle the question of whether "negro slavery" will exist within its borders as well as a bestowing upon the confederate congress "the power to prohibit the introduction of slaves from any State not a member of, or Territory not belonging to, this Confederacy." Consequently, it clearly did NOT support "states' rights" but enshrined slavery as an institution that the states had no power to abolish or to restrict in any meaningful way. Moreover, it reserved the specific matter of the right to decide if slaves could be imported to the confederate government thus preempting any supposed states' right to decide such question.

Should the confederacy acquire new territory:

Article IV, Section 3, Clause 3,

In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.


And so, any future territorial government would also be prohibited from exercising any autonomy on the issue of "negro slavery."

The importance of slavery could not be more clear. Defining "negroes" as an inferior race, and protecting the ownership, transportation, and commerce of "negroes" wasn't just a major aspect of the Confederacy, it was the central and defining idea of the Confederacy. This is reflected in a transcribed speech given by Confederate Vice-President Alexander Stephens speech on Savannah; Georgia, March 21, 1861, known as the Cornerstone Speech:

http://civilwarcauses.org/corner.htm

The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution - African slavery as it exists amongst us - the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted.

* * *
Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery -- subordination to the superior race -- is his natural and normal condition. [Applause.] This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.



The fact that most southerners did not own slaves does nothing to refute the fact that the war was about slavery. When people argue for and spread romantic revisionist notions of the confederacy, they not only are standing up for treason, they are defending inhumanity itself.

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Your first line, Lincoln was trying to preserve the Union sums it up well. Please place the quote in context if u like because there are many more. JUst dont feel like cutting and pasting like u did. Once again, if u are saying that a very small % of the people who owned slaves wanted to keep them and manipulated the rest into fighting. Then I agree.

But if u r are trying to say the 96%, or more, of the people in the South were fighting to keep slavery and 100% of the North were fighting to end slavery. That is complete made for tv PC BS. To try an say that number 1 reason those poor soldiers were fighting the war, was to keep slavery intact or to end it, is completely asinine.

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by jaymcc445 » 3 hours ago (Sat Jul 19 2014 19:07:32)
IMDb member since June 2007
JUst dont feel like cutting and pasting like u did.


Because you can't. I have provided a wealth of documentary facts to support my position. If you wish to refute what I have written, it requires documentary support. However, there is no historical support for your position. Consequently, there really is no argument.

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. Quoting himself in other speeches, he said, "I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so." Abraham Lincoln [Read: The Best Inaugural Addresses Ever}

Obviously you are obsessed with this subject, and completely wrong. Please enlighten us with your infinite wisdom on what the other 96% were fighting for or place into "context" any of Lincoln"s quotes. You have provide a wealth of BS written by certain wealthy men. Kinda like WMDs. There is a "wealth" of knowledge on these subjects if u choose to seek it. I just don't care to waste my time and post them here. Look them up yourself rube or good luck on your cutting an pasting.




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[deleted]

Re: There is no argument
image for user jaymcc445
by jaymcc445 » 8 hours ago (Sun Aug 24 2014 01:52:16) Flag ▼ | Reply |
IMDb member since June 2007
Post Edited: Sun Aug 24 2014 02:01:02
. Quoting himself in other speeches, he said, "I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so." Abraham Lincoln [Read: The Best Inaugural Addresses Ever}

Obviously you are obsessed with this subject, and completely wrong. Please enlighten us with your infinite wisdom on what the other 96% were fighting for or place into "context" any of Lincoln"s quotes. You have provide a wealth of BS written by certain wealthy men. Kinda like WMDs. There is a "wealth" of knowledge on these subjects if u choose to seek it. I just don't care to waste my time and post them here. Look them up yourself rube or good luck on your cutting an pasting.


The internet really does make clear communication a little more difficult. In fact, we really have little to disagree about. The slaveholders were obviously driving secession - for the purpose of protecting their financial interests. Absent the impetus from those slaveholders, there would not have been secession. That is most easily shown by the declarations linked and quoted above.

But the south was not solidly behind secession or the rebellion. Far fewer that 96% of non-slaveholders provided support for and/or fought for the CSA. But for those non-slaveholders who did, I would agree that they were duped into fighting for a cause that held no upside for them. Much like the elite often are able to trick people into supporting for causes that appear to be contrary to their own best interests. Just as the elite made soldiers going to Iraq believe they were fighting for our freedom when, in actuality, they were fighting for - what, exactly? Certainly it had nothing to do with preserving freedom and liberty in the USA nor with destroying WMD's in Iraq.

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Then we do agree on this subject...just not completely. My apologies for the harsh words.

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Nonslaveholder southern whites were terrified (and rightly so) that abolition of the institution of slavery would also mean the abolition of the race-based system of social caste which had largely defined boundaries and mores for generations in the White Protestant areas of the Americas.

Slavery elsewhere throughout the Americas had been effectively eradicated or in such sharp decline by the 1830s-60s. One early and great example was the Haitian Revolution of 1804 - in which well-organized slave rebellions led not only to a wildly successful anticolonial war of national liberation, but also visited a whirlwind of a reckoning on the privileged white French/Spanish land- and slave-owners, resulting in (at the very least) their expulsions from the country and confiscation of their ill-gotten gains, or at most the gruesome deaths of them and their loved ones.

Southern US WASP culture was SO grounded in pseudo-scientific/pseudo-religious nonsense about a world ordered by the laws of an imaginary and intangible invention called 'race' - something in which they'd found boundless security - that the mere idea of a repeat of the emancipationist events occurring everywhere to their immediate south, constituted such a disruptive shock to their universe that it's by no means an exaggeration to say they saw the premise of black emancipation as a literal existential threat; that any alternative would be unbearable.

That is why so many fought for their freedom to enslave fellow human beings - it was simply unfathomable to entertain the idea of blacks having enjoying the same rights as whites, that it could only have been a Satanic trick.

Case in point - how 'nonslaveowning whites' engineered the tragic reversal of the gains of Reconstruction, its replacement with at least 100 more years of 'Slavery Mk II' - In other words Jim Crow, segregation, and state-supported murder and campaigns of terrorism which all worked to deny African Americans what should have rightly been theirs in 1776, 1865, and 1965.

Most especially, the zeal with which they sought to preserve and institutionalize the above. And then try to deny it on internet messageboards.

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Colkitto,you hit it straight in the head. All of this talk about the War against Northern "agression" is mostly about Slavery not only in the declarations of those states you mention but,also in the Confederate Constitution.

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I could not had said it better myself Dac287.

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Great post dac.

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But the North only invaded the South after the South broke away so they could hold onto their slaves.

Josh

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And about a third of the Confederate States didn't secede until it became apparent that the North intended to use military might to force the South to remain a part of the Union. Until then those states were prepared to give up slavery.

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My professor made a point of this in my the Growth of American Civilization class. He said he disliked it when people made sweeping statements about why eachside made a point to fight. He made a bigger and better case then I can but two of the points I can recall are

A)3/5s law made it that Southern States had much more pull since their Property ie Slaves, increased the population quota and therefore increased the power/amount of that states electoral college votes given the slave states and their agendas much more strength and forebearance on the political platform. Whether wrong or right, there were those wanting to end this and those who wanted to maintain this advantage, so this gives people a reason to fight.

(Wars for the most part arent fought over romantic and personal matters. Those ideas are introduced far after the political and financial pros and cons have been wieghed. The romanticism comes much later when its time to influence a people to fight a war that they will surely die in for the fat men sitting behind desks a thousand miles from the battle fields)

B)Slave Labor was the equivalent to todays billion dollar corporations. Whole counties, cities, and states thrived off of the Crop exported. People living around plantation, ussually a whole town was hired by a plantation as overseers, slave drivers, slave catchers, muscle etc. Slavery itself made cause for the demand of several services that people who did not actually own slaves gave to those who did, making their livelyhood dependant on the slave trade. The raw matirials harvested and their respectful industries thrived off of this free labor as the founding basis. Once a rich man moves into a nieghborhood, that nieghborhod is forever changed. Once a rich man brings business into a nieghborhood, again those people are forever changed and they begin to thrive by servicing this business, and then others build business, sell goods, and create services to sell to those who are paid well by the rich man and so on and so forth down the line.In that time a rich man was rich mainly for two reasons

1) He had land
2) He had free labor to work that land

Lands worth nothing if it isnt worked. You take way the free labor then...everything goes from there.

Who attacked who first, who was right or wrong, thats up to perspective. These are facts that show whichever way you want to see it, the civil war was fought because of slavery. Poor men dont start wars anymore, rich men do. And rich men start wars to either gain more wealth or to keep what they already have,or to protect political interests and accomadating parties that protect wealth and power or have the ability to garner more. Not for romanticism and national pride.

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This is the problem. The founding fathers did not believe in anything like "federal territory."


Please read the Constitution (it's not a long documant at all, BTW.)

The concept of Federally-owned territory is covered within. In fact, it specifically mentions that Federal territory is to be administered by the Federal government. Ah, hell, I'll save you the trouble. From Article IV:

The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to prejudice any claims of the United States, or of any particular state.

What is Federal property if it is not "property belonging to the United States?"

(And Fort Sumter was on Federal land, not South Carolina State land.)

Many of the most prominent Founding Fathers, last I checked, drew up the 1787 Constituion. Kinda where the "founding" comes from.



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[deleted]

The United States (particularly at that time) were the States NOT the federal gov. as it is NOW. It just states that Congress has power to makes rules in territory owned by the United States. Again, you need to think of "United States" as they did then and not as we do now (thus the phrase "or of any particular state"). NOW the term "United States" or "the people" means the federal government. But not then. If you don't agree with this just think of how General Lee viewed it. When Lincoln ordered the Union (federal) forces to invade the South in Lee's mind the individual state of Virginia had sovereignity over anything the federal gov. imposed. The federal gov. was never intended to weld this much power. Nor do I believe they were intended to OWN territory.


If the Federal government was not intended to own territory, how do you explain the fact that new states (except for Texas, which had carved itself out of Mexico and had been independent for ten years) were to be formed out of territory owned by the United States as a unit, and not individually by states? Federal territory goes back to at least 1787, when the current Constitution was established. Ever heard of the Northwest Ordinance of that year? It concerned banning slavery in what was then the old Northwest Territory (modern day Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Michigan and a bit more - basically the Great Lakes region.) It was the Federal government that owned this area, appointed governors, made rules etc. Who owned the Louisiana territory after Founding Father Thomas Jefferson engineered its purchase? When Jefferson appointed Meriweather Lewis governopr of the Missouri territory, was he doing so for the state of Virginia of for the United States of America?

Bottom line - from the beginning, the United States government has owned and administered land separate from the states, and this is precisely what Article IV refers to. Robert E. Lee's own opinion about Virginia doesn't change that. And well before 1861, it had been establiched (with South Carolina's acquiesence) that Fort Sumter was federal, not state, property. It did not revert to state property just because South Carolina all of a sudden unilaterally decided they were no longer part of the country.

The Constitution has a mechanism for adding new states - none for states leaving.

Then there's this tidbit from Article VI:

This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution


This essentially affirms the supremacy of the Federal government.

In addition, there is this: The 1787 Constitution was formed as a reaction to the utter weakness of the Articles of the Confederation, in which the states were far too powerful compared to the central government. Yet the Articles of the Confederation stated that the Union was perpetual. Would a Constitution drawn up to strengthen the central government, to form "a more perfect Union," allow that Union to suddnely be non-perpetual?

None of this is iron-clad proof that secession was illegal, but I think it does lean strongly innthat direction. And you canot find in the Constitution any pro-Secession indications even remotely this powerful. About all anyone ever tries is by assuming secession as a "pwer" granted to the Staes in the Tenth Amendment along with the other unspecified poers. But left wide open is the question of whether secession could even be considered an allowable "power." And this utter ambiguity is the only thing in the Constitution that can even attempt to be interpreted as allowing secession. Whereas what I have produced here, though not iron-clad, would be a strong argument against it.








The Troika of Irrelevancy: bringing off-topic enlightenment to the masses since 2006

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[deleted]

You're really reaching now, Reb...

Don't foget, the CSA tried to light the match even earlier, at Fort Pickens, but Bragg was wise enough to realize that the attempted amphibious attack would be a disaster.

Not to mention Sumter was already under fire when the relief ships arrived, and they could do nothing except stand off and watch the show. Did the South Carolinians have a string of picket boats in the pitch-blackness of the night of April 11-12, maintaining a watch at the three-mile distance, with carrier pigeons ready to fly back to Beauregard the instant a Federal prow edged to within 2.999999999999999995 miles of shore, so he could start his attack?

One of your more amusing statements to date.



The Troika of Irrelevancy: bringing off-topic enlightenment to the masses since 2006

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[deleted]

The Confederates knew that more of these 'relief' ships were on the way and their purpose


Yep - peaceful resupply, as trasmitted to the South Carolina leaders by the Federal government.

Splice it any way you want to, Reb, but the South fired the first shot without proximate cause.

The Troika of Irrelevancy: bringing off-topic enlightenment to the masses since 2006

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Who the hell cares?

If slavery was peripheral to the character's lives, and more importantly the story, why bother with it?

This isn't a history lesson, it's drama. If the writer and director wants reflection on the story arc of a character dealing with their particular realm of reality, what's the need for miscellaneous irrelevance?

Do some people truly expect any movie set in the mid 19th century MUST contain a 21st century perspective and acknowledgment to slavery? If so, why?

Whatta ya want? Ang Lee to direct a new version of "Roots?" Ridiculous.

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Too many issues exist, in this movie, about the slavery issue and how blacks were treated to explore in this forum.

I will comment about the various posters reason for the "cause" of the Civil War. This issue is actually divided--some saying slavery and others saying state's rights. No doubt that slavery was an issue, but not the ONLY issue...and certainly not the primary issue. That said, now a qualification.

Sectionalism was a key issue for many decades before the Civil War, perpetuated by the concept of state's rights, of which the southern dislike for a central government was the primary catalyst. It is pretty much that simple. The first "wake-up call" to this issue was the Nullification Crisis in 1832.

The "right" to have slaves *was* a focal point, hence the Missouri Compromise of 1820, the Compromise of 1850, and the Kansas-Nebraska Act in 1856 which overturned the Missouri Compromise. As compromises, all these did was delay the inevitable of the south breaking form the Union....especially the Compromise of 1850. Lincoln turned the war to be primarily about slavery with his Emancipation Proclimation in 1863. This concept carried over into Reconstruction and Jim Crow.

To say the Civil War started and was about slavery is a misconception, and basically wrong. As stated, slavery was a central focal point, but the southern states, suffering from socio-economic problems, resented the successful north and the fact that the "northern" government was calling the shots. Lincoln getting elected in 1860 didn't help matters and, well, you know the rest.

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You are looking for a differnt movie, friend. There have been other very fine movies that depict the harsh realities of slavery that are absebt from this movie because this movie had a different focus. [See, e.g., "ROOTS" made in 1977...] And the liberal use of the word *beep* contradicts your statement that the movie "whirewashed" anything. As a minor civil war buff, I found that the movie vividly and accurately showed a small slice of the war as it was fought along the borders of Kansas/Missouri. It was a very personal, very vicious, and very bloody. A no holds barred down and dirty affair.

Btw, the movie pays apt homage to the brutality of slavery when Tobey McGuire and Jeffrey Wright's character have a conversation and Jake asks Holy "Where's your mother..." Even Holt's deusre to have the letters read to him by Jake is about mnore than him wanting to learn how to read. It's about him hearing and grooving on the simple famial and other normal relationships that as a former slave he never experienced.

I guess you can miss a lot in this movie if you are not paying attention. Or if you're looking for a diferent movie than was made. This IMHO was an awesome movie.

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Im not reading the thread right now, but I've seen this movie at least five times, and I think Jeffrey's Wright speech to Tobey Maguire about his status as a slave, his relationship with George, and where his mom might be, was just so beautiful and dignified. Just human beings on all sides trying to deal with a cruel world they were all born into.

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Perhaps you misunderstand the extent of slavery in Missouri at the time. Missouri was perhaps the least slave-holding state of all the slave-holding states, and most of those slaves were in southern Missouri, not northwest Missouri, which is where the film takes place. Remember: Missouri never seceded from the Union.

My family lived in Grain Valley, Jackson County, about 8 miles to the east of Independence, at the time of the Civil War. My great-great grandfather rode with Quantrill and participated in the Lawrence Massacre. What the film fails to portray and no poster here mentions is the retaliation that the people of Jackson, Cass, and Bates counties suffered at the hands of the army because of the massacre. Gen. Thomas Ewing proclaimed General Order No. 11, which forced rural people into towns, such as Independence, and gave the army the go ahead to destroy all houses, crops, and livestock in the area. My family lost everything it had.

There remain today only the stone chimneys of many homes in Cass and Jackson counties, which locals still call "Ewing's Memorials." Others call them the "Burnt District."

http://www.hmdb.org/Marker.asp?Marker=22089

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People joined the army (on both sides) for a variety of reasons, and not always for ideological reasons. It is true that relatively few northerners joined to free the slaves. A short rundown includes:

To preserve the Union/state's rights

The draft

Money (wasn't high, but was more than many people could make)

Because all of your friends, neighbors and family were joining up--hey never knock the value of peer pressure and propaganda

Soldiers from another part of the country invading/occupying your town/county

Vengeance due to atrocities (on both sides, particularly in the Kansas/Missouri area where this film is set)

Desire for personal glory

Combination of above

Although there were northern businessmen that resented the South's enslaved labor pool, there were also many whose mills depended on Southern cotton and who wanted the status quo maintained. That said, once the war did start, many businessmen in the north made out like bandits supplying war material and supplies. There were a multiplicity of reasons for the war, depending on who you were at the time, which is one reason why these arguments continue today. I think that it is a mistake to claim that the war came about for one reason only.

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this movie is just another sad example of this country's inability to deal with the central problem that has haunted it since its inception. as always, there is the attempt to refashion racist white supremacists into more appealing human beings, in order to feed the myths that too many americans still live on.
and in doing so, they create utterly ridiculous characters like "holt" in order to build the foundation of the myth.
holt is the most important character in the movie. which is one reason the movie ends with him riding off to search for his mother. after all, if such a smart, moral, committed man can feel such loyalty to the guy who freed him, the guy he feels he owes so much to, his other white buddies, how bad can those guys be? if holt feels so strongly, so positively, about the great guys he hangs out with, by extension, the rest of the marauders - with a few notable exceptions, obviously - are probably just as decent.
but holt is a ridiculous character, someone so implausible that it destroys the credibility of the entire film.
were there black men that fought on the side of the south?
i guess. and supposedly there were many, varied and complex reasons why this happened, but the idea that someone like holt would be one of those individuals is just ludicrous.
he is too smart, too aware, too self-contained to be the dumb, emotionally-clinging ni--er that emotionally clings to a man and a group of men who are fighting against his best interests. and to risk his life and freedom in support of that man and others like him? as smart and as aware as "holt" supposedly is, would it take years, and near-death, and many life-threatening situations for him to understand that, as he says at one point, he doesn't want to be anybody's ni--er?
i don't think so.
would someone less bright, less aware, less prideful, less conscious of his place in the world do the things that holt does, play that role? sure. there are plenty of people who would make those kind of emotionally-based decisions and proceed on them. the "holt" character in the movie is just obviously not one of them.
his actions are by no means organic to the character. his actions seem to be things he does because a script tells him that he must do those things.
the problem is that a character who would do those things, a character who would be dumb enough to play that role just would not be very interesting. and while a talented screenwriter would probably be able to get a small bit of value out of that kind of character, it could never carry the movie the way the holt character carries this movie.
it is unfortunate that even at this late stage in our history this country insists on perpetuating myths that pander to a self-image that is utterly at odds with reality.
southerners, ex-confederate apologists and even foreigners like ang lee need to get a grip on what this country actually went through and why the civil war happened. and why its reverberations still echo today.
of course, ang lee has a right to make a movie about a certain aspect of the civil war that may not have brought slavery in as THE central point of the movie. however, once he dips his toe into subject areas that touch on that issue, he has a duty to be honest and to present characters who are credible and who do not feed into destructive myths.
ang lee fails miserably in that respect and his movie is nothing more than a less glamorous, more graphic version of "gone with the wind". instead of slave women shrieking as they run around trying to help miss scarlett muddle through her various traumas, holt solemnly and with unerring dignity totally at odds with his circumstances, performs the same function: saving the life of his white masters, willingly performing slave-like duties on command, anguishing over the death of his white benefactor. again, actions that are totally at odds with a person as smart and independent as holt.
a real-life "holt" in those circumstances would have grabbed his horse, as much ammo as he could have, and dashed as far north as he could.
having him bond to and tying him to his white buddies, out of an obviously misguided sense of loyalty, is just another way of trying to make racist murderers appear to be less reprehensible.

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can't remember where I heard it (maybe in Ken Burns' 'Civil War' mini-series?), but it was pointed out that, after the War, the North largely adopted the racist viewpoint toward Blacks that had been demonstrated by the South, even if Slavery was officially ended. I found 2 other documentaries by Burns quite revealing concerning the plight of African-Americans from the late 1800's right into the 1960's: 'The 9 Innings of Baseball', and 'Jazz'.
- Hence, I find it very simplistic to label this conflict as one fought to abolish slavery - on that basis, the North failed miserably, since the oppressive, racist treatment of Blacks, including the dreaded Jim Crow laws, persisted almost everywhere in the USA for decades afterward.

I've also read that so-called 'civil wars' pitting countrymen against countrymen (and in the case of the American Civil War, West Point Officers vs. their own colleagues) inflict deep wounds that may take decades, or even centuries to heal. Ironically, the USA is on decent terms with Germany, Japan, and Russia - former 'enemies' in bloody conflicts of the 20th century.

I only caught the tail-end of this film, and found the 'Holt' character to be a bit of an anomaly. However, the depiction of the bloody rampages of 'irregulars', and the nasty in-fighting amongst former allies was quite revealing, an unpleasant topic not usually raised in Hollywood cinematography. These incidents no doubt contribute to those long-term wounds I described above, which, apparently DO persist, if you note the deep feelings of posters on this thread.

-in closing, if I used any terms I in this post that someone found offensive, I can assure you it was not intended. I hope you can look beyond that, and sense my deep feelings of sympathy for those who have abused by conflicts brokered by powerful groups with their own agenda.


:-) canuckteach (--:

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The movie was rated, by the History channel, as the most historically accurate movie of the year. Comparing this movie to Gone with the Wind is just complete and utter ignorance.

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Everyone in this thread missed the point I think. There are two separate issues; the legal and the moral.

Legally, the states had THE RIGHT to succeed from the Union at any time for any reason. Period.

Morally, the states chose to succeed because of their dependence on the immoral practice of slavery. Period.


Once the Union decided to stop the Confederates from succeeding they became the aggressors. This does not necessarily mean they were wrong, as you can maintain they had the moral high ground.


The Union acted in many ways like America in the Iraq War, or even in our current bombing campaign in Libya. To be precise, the Union had no legal right whatsoever to stop succession, but it can be argued they were justified because they ended repression.

It depends on your view of whether or not the war was "worth it". I believe slavery would have ended because of economic reasons like it did in every other country without bloodshed.

What is most interesting however, is that the same people who gleefully embrace the idea that the Confederates were aggressors and the Union was responding are the those who say our current governments have no right stepping in other countries to remove dictators or "nation build".

The Union war to stop Confederacy, their victory, and subsequent "reconstruction" was the original "nation building".

One character in the movie nicely sums it up:
"That is why they will win. Because they believe everyone should live and think just like them. And we shall lose because we don't care one way or another how they live. We just worry about ourselves."

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Of course it was whitewashed. This wasn't a film about slavery or racism so there is really no reason for those subjects to have had a more prominent role.

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