MovieChat Forums > Rounders (1998) Discussion > Grinding - Earning a living...(Serious t...

Grinding - Earning a living...(Serious topic)

posted 10 years ago by mpglloyd
21 replies | jump to latest

Hi all,

I know this topic has probably been posted a thousand times before, but I never got to see those threads unfortunately. And I'm after current and up to date replies/suggestions/thoughts/input. (Plus I don’t fancy sifting through pages & pages of threads and replies, time is of the essence!)

So let’s dive straight in to the topic at hand - In your opinion, experience (Personal or 3rd party) knowledge, education and logical reasoning would you say it is more than possible to earn a 'living' grinding both online poker and live poker?

As an example, let’s say matching your current employment salary income. For some of you high earners, that may be a slightly more difficult goal. So, let’s say a percentage of your salary, or even just the enough to ensure that you would be able to make ends meet week by week or for now enough for food and essentials to keep things simple. So I’ll let you arrive at what that specific ‘X amount’ would be.

The exact figure you want to arrive at is mostly irrelevant anyway, since that figure is relative to each of us.

Just to give you all a comparison and to put things in to perspective. The average salary in the UK is £26,500 per year or £509 per week, before tax & national insurance deductions, which equates to £72 per week day. After tax and national insurance deductions then you would take home around £403 per week or £57 per week day. See how quickly it seems to diminish?

To add to that - at the moment 4 out of 5 new jobs in the UK are in sectors paying less than £16,640 per year for a full time job (40 hours per week). And 20% of the UK population are earning under the current ‘Living wage’.

Now I'm under no illusions that it would certainly not be an easy feat to ascertain. But then nothing ever worth having is easy, right?

And the way I see it, if so many people can achieve greatness, monumental success, excel in their field, create a vision and proceed to dedicate their entire time to making that become a reality. **Or even as an extreme example, if we can send a probe on a 700,000,000km trajectory through space to land on a comet after 10 years of work, with input from over 2000 people making that possible…

Then I have to ask myself, what is seriously stopping me emulating just a fraction of that success or accomplishment if I’m willing to put in the effort, the time, the work and the sweat?

I think the only answer as to what is stopping that happening, is me & the limitations I set myself. (Or refer to as ‘We’) since this topic involves all of us.

My intentions are to treat my poker game as a business, specifically an investment/trading business. There’s not much difference in saying “I want to become a successful [Insert financial sector or commodity] trader” & “I want to earn a living as a successful poker player”.

The business would be ran part time along side my regular employment income and would need to be profitable (Sufficiently enough) over a term of 18-24 months before considering a full time role.

So what does everyone think? Seriously responses only please people.

**I understand for some people, the mathematics/physics involved in such calculations may actually be somewhat in close reach for those gifted in the numbers department. But that not considering, purely focus on the feat and accomplishment.

[–] micirisi 10 years ago

So let’s dive straight in to the topic at hand - In your opinion, experience (Personal or 3rd party) knowledge, education and logical reasoning would you say it is more than possible to earn a 'living' grinding both online poker and live poker?

I really don't know the actually possibility of someone making a living playing poker. Not to disillusion you but I would conservatively guess that it is less than 1% over a lifetime. Good luck!

"He killed sixteen Czechoslovakians. Guy was an interior decorator."

[–] qpw3141 10 years ago

Yes, it's perfectly possible to make a living grinding poker. If you happen to be very talented you could even make a good living.

However you now need to be very good (gone are the days when on line poker was awash with people desperate to give you their money), and you need extreme discipline and A+ bankroll management.

It's also boring as hell.

[–] Mantiso 10 years ago

I'm sure it's possible. The question is why? What is the benefit of making your living playing poker? It's boring as hell. It serves nobody but yourself and you have to risk money to make money. A regular job is better in many ways. Some might be boring but that's it. At least they can be more reliable and you get up and off your ass every day.

[–] mpglloyd 10 years ago

There is a difference between a job and a career though.

A regular office job for the majority of us, 9-5, cool! Just equally as boring as any other option.

A career is different.

And everything is a risk anyway - whether you work for a company, self employed, investment or 'gamble' for a living.

Everything is a calculated risk.

So the best of both worlds - Find a career or a job, and pursue the poker ambitions alongside it and if you're successful, re-assess the options.

[–] Peasprout 10 years ago

If your goal is to make £57 per day playing poker, you should have no trouble doing so, assuming you are a competent player. But consider the drawbacks.

1. You have to go to a casino each day, unless you are going to try to make £114 per day and only go every other day.

2. You get no job benefits from playing poker. Health coverage, pension, social security, disability insurance, 401k, stock options, sick leave, paid vacation days-- I don't know what one gets in the UK but here in the US there is more to a job than just a salary.

3. You still have to pay tax on the money you win playing poker, at least in the US. Suddenly you need a lot more than £57 per day to meet your goal.

4. Short of forcing yourself to play more to win more, you have no chance to advance. There are no promotions or raises.

5. You can't retire. You are stuck playing poker until you die.

6. No office social life. There is a sense of camaraderie amongst co-workers that you won't experience. You'll miss out on a lot of the fun little aspects of modern life if you don't have a "normal" job.

[–] mpglloyd 10 years ago

If your goal is to make £57 per day playing poker, you should have no trouble doing so, assuming you are a competent player. But consider the drawbacks.

1. You have to go to a casino each day, unless you are going to try to make £114 per day and only go every other day.

2. You get no job benefits from playing poker. Health coverage, pension, social security, disability insurance, 401k, stock options, sick leave, paid vacation days-- I don't know what one gets in the UK but here in the US there is more to a job than just a salary.

3. You still have to pay tax on the money you win playing poker, at least in the US. Suddenly you need a lot more than £57 per day to meet your goal.

4. Short of forcing yourself to play more to win more, you have no chance to advance. There are no promotions or raises.

5. You can't retire. You are stuck playing poker until you die.

6. No office social life. There is a sense of camaraderie amongst co-workers that you won't experience. You'll miss out on a lot of the fun little aspects of modern life if you don't have a "normal" job.

1 - A combination of online play, live play, tournaments etc. Plus it's not like you can expect to earn exactly £57.00 per day. Some days you may earn X that amount, other days you may not. As long as variance does it's job in the end, if we're a consistent winner it'll average out. Granted if you were relying on needed the cash each day, but that's another debate.

2 - Plenty of ways around those in the UK. Voluntary National Insurance Contributions (Healthcare), self employed not employed. A self employed worker doesn't reap the benefits of vacation/holiday pay or sick pay anyway.

3 - In the UK profits from gambling are non taxable.

5 - How can you not retire? Again if you're a consistent winner and provided you don't blow your money, the same way any regular employee could also do, then you plan aside for retirement.

Most of your points may be applicable to your US residents. But thankfully (For now) where gambling is concerned the punter has it pretty good.

[–] melinda2001 9 years ago

I'm with Mantiso in asking what's the point? Let's say that you grind out a good living and sock away enough for a retirement. Is that a life to be proud of? You'll have given nothing back to the world; at least nothing from the bulk of your life's efforts. I'd rather have have that lowly office job with a company that did something useful. I guess there are lots of people who think that consuming a lot is reward enough in life but I find the idea very sad.

[–] knifeparty2004 8 years ago

Alot of people are saying it would be boring. Well if you consider poker boring then yes of course it would be boring, for you. To me, I find the idea of working some office job answering to someone the rest of my working life as boring.

[–] melinda2001 8 years ago

I never said it would be boring, though I'm sure that's true too. I said that I feel it would be a waste of one's life. You only get one shot at life and if you don't want to end up without giving it some meaning, then you need to do something useful with it. You need to find a way to leave the world a better place than it would have been without you. That doesn't mean that you can't have fun, but if you only want to chase money, then at least do that working for a company that's doing something useful.

[–] knifeparty2004 8 years ago

No offense but that's a really retarded outlook. Who are you to say what is useful/meaningful and what isn't? How does being an employee give your life more meaning than being self-employed? Sorry but I don't agree with your warped perspective. If someone is financially successful at something like poker moreso than anything else, then why not? Live and let live.

[–] melinda2001 8 years ago

Offense taken. I have nothing against self-employment which I've been for much of my career. What I have a problem with is lives wasted doing things best left to machines. What good does gambling do beyond a weak sort of entertainment? I feel the same way towards most of the people on Wall Street. They might make a good living chasing minute crumbs that fall from the mechanizations of stock markets, but I see those as similarly wasted lives, even if those involved see it otherwise. That's my opinion of course, just like my belief that you're a dick.

[–] knifeparty2004 8 years ago

Don't get your panties in a bunch because I disagreed with you. Well my opinion is that yours seems to be quite envy-based. Perhaps insecure about your own meaningless life...
"Lives wasted by things done better by machines". You should get off your high horse ASAP. Im sure you're making wonderful contributions to the world fwiw...

[–] melinda2001 8 years ago

I wasn't miffed because we disagreed, I was ticked me off when you called my opinion retarded. Also, I feel reasonably good about my contributions in life. My feelings are based on the fact that waste in any form makes me sad. My guess is that I touched a nerve in that regard so you're lashing out at the person who reminded you of some life decisions that you regret.

[–] knifeparty2004 8 years ago

Actually have no life regrets sorry to say. Not quite lashing out, just tilts me when people act holier-than-thou, criticizing others for their life choices as if their own are so damn noble...

[–] Degree7 8 years ago

If the meaning of life is to find out what you love, and do it for the rest of your life, then how is it meaningless for people who love to play poker to do just that?

Are professional poker players also just leading meaningless lives? Are any competitive sportsmen just mindless drones chasing money? I think there is an appeal beyond just money.

You wouldn't say the same about a chess player, but because someone says they want to sustain themselves by playing poker, there is a stigma against it because it involves gambling.

~ I'm a 21st century man and I don't wanna be here.

[–] excel99 8 years ago

Well, poker obviously isn't in your heart and soul like it is with some others. When I play poker, I never feel it's time wasted. The social aspect of the game counts, too. I'm having an enjoyable time, and most of the other people at the table are enjoying themselves, too (usually!). So you could call that a 'service' or 'entertainment.' Ultimately, if I win, the money goes back into the economy, plus the rake keeps the card room or online site in business, and that employs who knows how many people.

Is that a 'wasted life'? Maybe for you. But I'd rather do that than work as an accountant in an office for a chemical supplier whose products are used in toxic products that cause cancer and destroy the environment...for example. You talk about 'giving back to the world,' but most people work in jobs where they have no idea exactly WHAT it is they are giving back to the world...

I'd call poker more ethical than most jobs for major corporations. But that's just me.

[–] melinda2001 8 years ago

I do things that are unproductive but entertaining too, so I have no moral high-ground. I just don't want to look back on my life and not be able to say that my live was a net positive for our species and planet. Playing poker is good training for a lot of negotiations, so it can be a positive thing too when it does end up being used. As a profession however I personally see it as a waste. As for the economy, just moving money between the pockets of the players and house doesn't really add economic value. Also, not all economic activity is good. For example the Orlando shooter has had a big effect on several parts of the economy, but everyone can see that we'd all be better off if that had not happened. I'd much rather be that accountant for the chemical company. I would have to trust that the business was providing something of value, but someone is getting value from it if they're paying to keep it going. Some of those chemicals end up in medicines or help increase crop yields, so I'd be much more interested in that job, though of course I'd also pay attention to what the company was really doing before I decided. I'm glad that you are enjoying poker. It is definitely a deep and interesting game. I also hope that you do something more with your life.

[–] knifeparty2004 8 years ago

You are one of the most awful, self-righteous posters I have ever seen on IMDB.

I also hope that you do something more with your life.

Just wow....

[–] melinda2001 8 years ago

You'll be glad to know that in your case I feel very differently. I hope that your poker playing is the most useful thing you ever do with your life.

[–] knifeparty2004 8 years ago

Well whatever I do, I will take comfort knowing I'm a much better person than you'll ever be.

[–] cyberbob (3488) 7 years ago

I'm sure it's possible. There are lots of pros and semi pros out there.

But I don't think it's for everybody. I went on about a 6 month stretch of playing lots and lots of online poker. I would play for about 5-6 hours a day trying to build a bank roll and hone my skills. Playing NL requires a lot of focus since you can go bust pretty quickly so it can be pretty stressful.

It can also be extremely boring. If paying your rent, utilities, car payments, etc. all depend on you making money at poker, you're probably going to end up taking a very safe, reliable approach to the game. Unless you happen to be super skilled, the safest way to play poker profitably is to play pretty tight and not take huge risks. But that means that you may only be playing a few hands per hour. Something may be a lot of fun when you do it on the weekends with your friends, but may not be nearly as much fun when your live hood is on the line.

If you are actually interested I would recommend searching up stories from real pros/"grinders" on google or buying poker books to learn more about the life of a poker player. There are lots of resources out there.