MovieChat Forums > Splendor (2000) Discussion > So, was it a V, or was it a triad?

So, was it a V, or was it a triad?

posted 21 years ago by Violet_Loves_Iliona
18 replies | jump to latest

I've discussed this movie with a couple of different people now, and I'm still not sure about the nature of the relationship between Veronica, Abel & Zed.

Was it a V, as one person I know thinks, was it deliberately left up in the air, as two other people I know have said, or was it a triad?

I personally agree with a friend of mine that it was a triad, but that it wasn't explicitly stated (or deliberately left open to interpretation), and that the guy's didn't want to be together after Veronica left, because they were upset about her leaving (obviously), and also the group dynamic was broken... Mind you, I also have no doubt whatsoever that the character of Zed was very bisexual, and that Abel was open to that, even though he said he wasn't at the dinner (when they all saw each other together for the first time other than at the concert).

Does anybody here have any thoughts on the nature of their relationship/s?

[–] BuffyFanOne 20 years ago

i am inclined to think that it went 3 ways. they all got it on w/ eachother. thats what i think. that scene after she left, the scene in the bathroom, i was expectint the 2 fellas to kiss any second!

visit my buffy custom site
http://www.geocities.com/bufyfan_1/front.html

[–] Violet_Loves_Iliona 20 years ago

Well, I certainly think he could have made it a really obvious Bi threesome. :)

I loved the scene where Veronica had the two guys kiss each other, and how she said "oh, come one, that would be *SO* hot!" - I agreed with her totally, lol! :)

Considering the other films Araki has made, I don't understand why we didn't get to see more action either between the two guys one-on-one, or between the two guys while all three of them were together... So I guess while I want to think they were all on together, maybe they weren't, I don't know... Even if they weren't together in a sexual sense, they obviously became really close, and so it was very interesting, either way. :)

[–] dragonfly_bee 20 years ago

I think this is why Araki succeeded with this film, because he let it be up 2 the viewer's imagination about what went on w/the guys. Sure, she was able to persuade them 2 kiss (yeah, i agree, the whole subtlety & innocence in that kiss made me wet!), but guys will do anything for love, even when they both love the same woman. I'm sure she could have persuaded them 2 do more, they were both so devoted to her, and it would have been innocent like the kiss, they would have gone further just 2 please her. And when she took off 2 "get her head straight" with the movie director who seemed WAY more gay than either Zed or Abel (which i 4 1 thought was pretty funny), they were both so miserable without her that i don't think the thought of turning to each other 4 comfort ever crossed their minds. I know, i know, "misery loves company", but like i said in the first sentence, i think Araki did this on purpose, and this is "my" take on what transpired between Zed and Abel... the movie simply lets the viewer make their own decision. V or triad, it's still a great movie.

[–] 20 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Violet_Loves_Iliona 18 years ago

I don't agree. I've been in a bi threesome, and I've seen not only straight, but gay and bi "V" relationships. If the members of one sex aren't attracted to and sexually involved with each other, just with the person of the opposite sex, then it's not bisexual, although that having been said, even a straight threesome relationship would need for some physical intimacy barriers to be removed (things like touching each other if the three of them make love together, for instance, or if they all sleep in the same bed then they would need to lose that hangup many straight men have about accidentally touching each other, as that would indeed happen from time to time).

===
I don't like the feeling of being hunted... There's a lot more power in being the *hunter*.

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] liss54 18 years ago

Let me say that I really like this movie and its silliness and LA style of life. I loved how the relationship was portrayed and the characters. (with the exception of almost puking at some of Veronica's cutesy facial expressions and laughs - but hey, she's hot esp in those glasses). It was refreshingly wonderful to see a film about a real three way love affair.
However (!) I have to point out that it really surprised me that there were so many homophobic elements to this flick. Come on Greg, what's going on? I do believe that it was a full on sexual relationship between the three. As others have mentioned - why not show more of the two guys? To show so much blatant screwing with each guy and Veronica and then basically just a peck and some very subtle innuendo with the guys-??
I don't mean to anally list things off, but I think they are fitting examples to make my point:
-Veronica asks Abel if he's had sex with a guy to which he looks almost disgusted and says no, as if the idea were ridiculous. He retorts in a suddenly overexcited and uppity way to ask Veronica if she's had sex with a woman as if saying "let's get to the hot stuff". V says that she kissed a girl and let her touch her boobs. Sex? I think not, but it's fully catering to the idea that girl on girl "action" is "hot" and "playful" (not substantial or relationship worthy) while sex between men is not even worth talking about - even when Zed insinuates that he's had some.
-When Mike asks V if the guys "did it" she responds no as if the idea were so repulsive. Mike makes a vomit noise in response. If Mike is so artistically wacky and a lesbian herself (if a crush on a girly S&M singer can be considered lesbionic), why would the concept of two guys having sex be so "icky" and repulsive to her?
-Yes, V is pregnant and pissed, but when she walks in to find the guys doing the most suggestively sexual thing we've seen in a while (when that thing is ab rolling, you know we're hard up for steamy scenes), she says "what is this, a west hollywood gym?". That sounds more like gay bashing to me than anything else. It's meant to be insulting and degrading. You're living with two guys in a relationship, why would you make a homophobic crack like this?
-After V leaves, Abel and Zed obviously continue a relationship. Yet this is extremely downplayed as them being miserable and drunk and hugging while crying over V. (Though when Abel helps Zed to puke, that's definitely love). Why is their love not given its due? Why aren't they shown holding and caressing each other, in bed or otherwise? If one of the guys left, V and the other guy would certainly still be shown in bed together, even if they were mourning the loss of the third. Why does the love the men have for each other have to be reduced to this neverending quarrelish brothers type relationship - even at the end with the baby! It never lets up, even when they're parents and in a secure and loving relationship.
What's with the homophobia???
Did Araki just think it was okay, not notice it, or what?

[–] Violet_Loves_Iliona 18 years ago

I can see where you're coming from in wanting it to be an even triad rather than a three (I certainly did and would still love to see a film as good as this that has an even triangle at its centre), but to be honest I've come to decide that that's not what this film is about. This film is about a "V" relationship, and that's an interesting idea in and of itself. In case anyone who reads this is uninitiated with the term, a "V" relationship refers to a relationship between 3 people where two people are primarily involved with a third person, who is the "pivot" in the relationship between the other two.

Incidentally, I don't think there was anything even remotely homophobic about this film or about the characters. The comments and reactions you mention above were reactions and comments from 3 more or less innocents who were living out something previously foreign to them, and I certainly don't believe there was a prejudiced or malicious element to their comments, just people seeing - and experiencing for themselves - that there is a whole wide world out there beyond what they had previously known. Kathleen Roberts' character Veronica mentions how sheltered and limited her upbringing had been at the beginning of the film (I remember a "from beer to eternity" comment).

Anyways, specifically:

> V says that she kissed a girl and let her touch her boobs. Sex? I think not,
> but it's fully catering to the idea that girl on girl "action" is "hot"
> and "playful" (not substantial or relationship worthy) while sex between men
> is not even worth talking about - even when Zed insinuates that he's had
> some.

I don't agree. I think it was actually the exact opposite of this - they were two guys, one straight and the other possibly bi, who were doing the whole guy-on-guy thing to titllate the girl! :)

> After V leaves, Abel and Zed obviously continue a relationship. Yet this is
> extremely downplayed as them being miserable and drunk and hugging while
> crying over V. (Though when Abel helps Zed to puke, that's definitely love).
> Why is their love not given its due? Why aren't they shown holding and
> caressing each other, in bed or otherwise? If one of the guys left, V and
> the other guy would certainly still be shown in bed together, even if they
> were mourning the loss of the third

I so very definitely agree with you about "when Abel helps Zed to puke, that's definitely love" - that is so true! :)

I'm not so sure that they would even necessarily be sexual with each other after Veronica left, even if they were bi, as they would be mourning her, and that could unbalance the relationship to such a degree that the other two guys could break up with each other, even if they were in love with each other and sexually involved together, that's my opinion anyway. But I think this would be even more the case since I think theirs was a "V" relationship. Because of this, I loved that they were there for each other and how tender they were with each other. Very sweet. :)

... All this being said, I would have loved to have seen more of the two guys, and especially to see more of the rwo guys being physically/sexually intimate together. The kissing scene was amazing, and especially since I wasn't expecting it, I was enrapt! :)

Siobhan

===
I don't like the feeling of being hunted... There's a lot more power in being the *hunter*.

[–] liss54 18 years ago

Well, it's nice to see a response here. You did make me think more about the V idea. It is interesting in and of itself. I do still, however, feel that there is a heteronormative vibe about this film and many of the lines I mentioned were homophobic. Even so, it's nice to see a film that challenges our current American culture's idea of what a relationship is supposed to be. ;)

[–] Violet_Loves_Iliona 18 years ago

That's OK. :)

But you do know that Gregg is openly Bisexual, and a really popular filmmaker within the gay community, don't you? I still don't understand how you find anything in this film homophobic, but everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I just hope you give this film a fair go one day, I think you'll like it so much more if you view this not as a gay film necessarily (and therefore getting upset that it isn't gay enough), but as a polyamorous film that is open to bisexual people and themes, even if it's not explicitly Bi or gay.

Anyways, it's been nice sharing with you. :)

Siobhan

I don't like the feeling of being hunted... There's a lot more power in being the *hunter*.

[–] cuttingedgenyc 18 years ago

Respectfully, Liss, I think you missed something big here. Abel is homophobic in the beginning, but comes around to his bisexuality later in the film.

I think they didn't show it more explicitly to leave the question open for viewers, and I like the way this is done. I think Araki was trying to appeal to a bigger audience and raise just these types of questions. Can "straight" guys, through their love for a woman, also come to discover love eachother? I think it was an interesting idea....

[–] liss54 18 years ago

Thanks for the comments, guys. They made me think. And yes, I'm very familiar with Araki and his work.
I love the theme that "straight" guys can find love for one another through a woman. I am very open to all types of sexualities, and I do think that ultimately that's what the three main characters found.
I think this film was just a little too mainstream feeling for me. And thus, the hetero vibe was the filter through which a lot of the film was viewed through. It wasn't that the film wasn't gay enough, it was that the film wasn't open enough and kept ultimately relying on labels of hetero or bi.
I think I'm trying to say that I wanted to be opened up while watching this film and everytime that happened there was a scene or a comment or something that just brought it back down. I notice patterns like this when movies are trying to play out to the masses, or mainstream viewers, or whatever you'd like to call it.
I would like to see this type of movie be made today with a little bit more openness and courage and breaking of "the rules".

[–] morris7800 18 years ago

Why don't you people go rent a gay porno video if you are so desperate to see guy on guy action? Good grief. What makes the relationships work as an interesting film study is the tension created by the triangle, and even moreso by the fact that one of the males expresses a disinterest in bi sex. The scene where she makes them kiss has less to do with sexuality and more to do with her clumsy wielding of power over men that would do anything to please her.

[–] Violet_Loves_Iliona 17 years ago

The scene where she makes them kiss has less to do with sexuality and more to do with her clumsy wielding of power over men that would do anything to please her.

Hmmm... I didn't quite see it that way, but that's a really interesting way of viewing that scene :) ... I'd stretch it a bit further, though, by saying that the scene where she makes them kiss "shows her clumsy wielding of power over men that would do anything to please her", using her power over them to make them confront and discover their own Bisexual potential. :)

Watching TV shows doesn't create psycho killers... CANCELLING TV shows creates psycho killers!

[–] rockerhoney03 18 years ago

The relationship was intriguing, I think it worked the way it did because neither one of them would have been happy with just the one. Veronica viewed Abel and Zed almost as a whole person, it seemed as if the relationship might not have worked otherwise. Eventually when they all meet and form this threesome, the same becomes true for Abel and Zed. Abel saw Zed and Veronica as a whole and vice versa for Zed, together they created an interdependent relationship. I think Araki left out the sexual dynamic so that it wouldn't overpower the fact that it is, basically a love story.

[–] Violet_Loves_Iliona 18 years ago

> I think Araki left out the sexual dynamic so that it wouldn't overpower the
> fact that it is, basically a love story.

That is probably the best explanation I've seen raised about that point. :)

S

===
I don't like the feeling of being hunted... There's a lot more power in being the *hunter*.

[–] rockerhoney03 18 years ago

Thanks! Glad to offer some fresh perspective.

[–] ms-catamaran 15 years ago

i think it started out as a V because the guys met each other through her and likely wouldn't have been friends otherwise. Abel and Zed acted more like brothers (always busting each other's balls and what not) and I really doubt anything happening between them because of it, ya know they for the most part (especially Abel) was straight very straight.

And even though they may have not started out as friends they clearly became friends because even after Veronica left, Abel and Zed still lived together-- so my opinion: it started out as a V with Veronica as the hinge and over time morphed into a triad or equilateral triangle.

I couldn't hear my own footsteps. It was the walk of a dead man.