MovieChat Forums > The Cider House Rules (2000) Discussion > Abortion and Murder:What's the differenc...

Abortion and Murder:What's the difference?


This is definitely worth thinking about. Especially for pro-abortion advocates.

I recently saw a CNN report on a tragic story about a woman whose boyfriend tricked her into taking an abortion-inducing drug after she told him she was pregnant and the outcome of this case immediately brought this movie to mind. The boyfriend, John Andrew Welden, is now facing first-degree murder charges for killing the unborn child. Welden told his girlfriend that his father, a doctor, had prescribed her an antibiotic for an infection. In reality, Welden gave her an abortion-inducing drug, and the pregnancy was terminated.

This story is undoubtedly tragic, and Welden deserves to face punishment for first-degree murder. However, the undercurrent of this story is working against the tide of abortion-rights advocates. Note with me the inconsistency of the logic of our laws and of abortion advocates.

The pregnancy of Remee Lee was terminated by her boyfriend, the supposed father of the child. Since it was against the will of the mother, Welden is being charged with first-degree murder. However, if Lee had terminated the pregnancy herself, it would have been perfectly legal and perhaps even applauded by abortion advocates. Even if the abortion had been against the will of the father, the mother would have been within her legal rights to have an abortion.(Does anyone else see the contradiction here?!)

Why is this a problem? The charge of first-degree murder implies the pre-meditated killing of innocent human life. It implies value in the life that is lost. In this case, it is the life of an unborn child.

What makes an abortion elected by the mother any different? The charge of first-degree murder cannot be levied against Welden for any physical harm incurred by Ms. Lee. Instead, it is directly centered upon the loss of life for the baby. The attorneys may even argue that the life was taken against the will and rights of the unborn child. In the same way, abortions performed according to the will of the mother take the life of an unborn child against his/her will and rights. Why is it murder for the boyfriend to induce an abortion and not when a woman chooses it on her own? It makes no sense,whatsoever.It's ridiculous and sick. How can any logical,morally thinking human being think otherwise?



"In the pursuit of truth there are many doors to deception.Open your mind.But, guard your heart"-me

reply

[deleted]

Although you try to pretend it does, your soapbox morality speech has nothing to do with the movie. Since this was a work of fiction, nothing outside the work has anything to do with the film. It would be like someone coming in and ranting against the fitness if FDR as president.

reply

You can not win with the pro abortion crowd - at least if you try arguing logically.
Don't feel bad, theres many of us out here that think the same as you, we've just gotten tired of arguing with angry people who will not argue logically.
*Keep in mind that there are many older angry women out there who don't deal well with the subject and I completely understand and sympathize with that. Back in the day, I knew my share of young ladies who had abortions, alone, shunned by the 'father', scared to death etc etc.
The people they had grown to trust told them 'its ok, theres nothing wrong with it' and now, all these years later, their conscience is messin' with them. Very understandable and
I will not be one to throw it in their face(s). I agree that its a very personal thing.
Hey, we all sin (or if not religious: not made some errors we feel bad about, our conscience punishing us). No young lady should have to go it alone the way they do.
What I have a BIG problem with is the older woman who tell younger ladies 'go ahead, there is nothing wrong with it ...'but are troubled with having made the decision themselves so many years ago. Aborting a child has got to be one of the most soul troubling decision a young girl ever will have to make. Older women, thats one thing, but teens are a different story. Kids can't legally drink until 21 but just as 18 year old boys who join the military, are ordered to take a life(s) but can't have a beer, geeesh !
We are a mess. Anyhow, I could go on all afternoon - just wanted to let you know that you're not alone.

reply

What measurement do we have to know when the fetus becomes a baby inside the womb? Since the metamorphosis does not happen suddenly, we can't call it a baby/ unborn baby/fetus whenever it suits us.

Regardless if one is pro/con, what defines in tangible terms when the fetus is a human being, when it's appendages develop, when it's head is fully formed, when it's it's fingers wiggle is operating, when what? Nobody cares, I assume. It's more about rhetoric.

reply

[deleted]

Still, there is no exact timelime, like the washing machine transitioning from wash to rinse. This 24th week is an estimate, which can vary from one fetus/baby to another

reply

[deleted]

Wisdom teeth/puberty is not in the same league as abortion, though. If my sister was still alive, I'd ask her what the youngest baby that she cared for as an R.N. Prenatal. All she wanted to do was breathe life into premature babies, and she wasn't even allowed to do that.

reply

I think people are being too sentimentalist over babies and abortion issues IY. A premature baby is not an aborted baby issue.

Don't eat the whole ones! Those are for the guests. 🍪

reply

[deleted]

I know you weren't equating it. I wasn't either, but was referencing what we said when the timeline is, when a fetus becomes a baby. You said when it's healthy to live outside the womb, so I was just going off on a tangent about the timeline. It's my my fault for not being clear.

reply

[deleted]

Another concept of no sense by lawyers...

In pure facts - a fetus is a parasite until it reaches a specific stage in which it can live on its own. The parasite is a part of the woman's body until it can survive without the woman.

If a female wants to remove her breasts or cut off her arm - it is her choice. Same should be for a parasite within her body.

I someone chops off a woman's arm - they are not charged with 1st degree murder (unless she dies from it - then maybe), so tricking her into an abortion can't be first degree murder but at best considered attempted murder (for the risk of the woman dying during the abortion) or assault.

What is needed is a strict decision as to what point a fetus becomes a functional human. That is when abortions should be cut off, not before

reply

The difference is that "murder" is a fiction we made up so we could have some civilization around here. We're the descendants of cave people.

Abortion, the termination of a fetus, actually happens in reality.

Which parent (or even which human) doing the terminating making any difference is "legal" juggling which is all fiction and politics.

"Need" is just a fiction. As is "should", "must", "value" and "importance".

reply

Would it be prudent to shoot those who participate in the termination of unwanted pregnancies?

I'm a real kewl kat.🐈

reply

Just arresting them would be sufficient.

reply

Would you arrest them as they walk in the clinic door? Would the women you are forcing motherhood on have to raise their children behind bars?

I'm a real kewl kat.🐈

reply

The clinic wouldn't exist as abortions would be illegal. If a woman doesn't want to raise her child, she can give her child up for adoption, not murder it.

reply

Babies & children go directly to Heaven, though. So aborted fetuses get to spend eternity with Jesus on a big fluffy cloud. Very few adults get to go to Heaven so all you are really doing is sentencing the majority of fetuses you force birth upon to spend an eternity burning in Hell.

You sicken me.

I'm a real kewl kat.🐈

reply

So child murders don't sicken you, but opponents of child murders sicken you. Alright.

reply

"Murder" is the illegal taking of a person/citizen's life. A fetus has not been born yet, and so therefore, it is neither a person, nor a citizen. Personally, I am very much pro-choice. I feel that, now, more than ever, with the overpopulation problems and such, it's very unsafe and unrealistic, to restrict reproductive rights. However, the larger issue, is that abortion is an extremely vital part of the women's rights movement. Having a child changes your life completely - physically, emotionally, career-wise, socially, and financially. We all make mistakes, and almost everybody has sex. Why should any woman be punished, for merely making a mistake, by being forced to go through with a pregnancy, that would negatively impact her life? Besides, it's not always a mistake, on the woman's part, that leads to the situation. She could be pregnant by rape, incest, birth control failing, etc. (Not that it matters, to me. The right to choose is the right to choose.) And, adoption is a fine option, for a woman who does not want to raise a child, but wants to go through, with the pregnancy, However, pregnancy is no walk in the park, in so many ways, and so if a woman doesn't want to be pregnant, in the first place, adoption is not a fair or justified solution. Abortion is. It would be a huge infringement on women's rights, in general, to make abortion illegal. Reproductive rights and services, are as valid a part of health care, as any other. I, personally, feel that the pro-life movement, is marked by ignorance, and a lack of empathy. Many of them have no problem saying that a woman should not be able to have access to abortion, but they themselves, perhaps, would not want to be in that individual's situation. Maybe, if they suddenly were, THEY would want the abortion. You can not judge someone else, until you've walked a mile, in their shoes.

"Without music, life would be a mistake." ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

reply

Murder is the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

A baby in the womb is certainly a human being, yet unborn. As for the unlawful part, the objective moral law applies here, not just current state law which is often twisted. German Jews who were killed legally by Nazis, are considered murdered, regardless of German laws at the time.

Why should any baby be punished for mistakes or crimes of her parents? Rapist, if caught, will be put in jail, not executed. Why execute the innocent child then?

Finally, I recommend to examine abortionprocedures DOT com with description of the procedure by a former abortionist. Hopefully, it will help you to understand what abortion actually is.

reply

Hopefully, it will help you to understand what abortion actually is.
__________________
People are not stupid and know what abortion is, and they don't need an ignorant and self-righteous moral do-gooder to project their own dubious and self-serving agendas onto them. How patronizing and condescending you sound.

Don't eat the whole ones! Those are for the guests. 🍪

reply

I don't think that people really know what abortion is. If they really did, they wouldn't support it.

reply

A fetus has not been born yet, and so therefore, it is neither a person, nor a citizen.
I didn't read though your essay, but at what stage? Funny, I ask this question, but receive no answers. What measurement do we have to know when the fetus becomes a baby inside the womb? Since the metamorphosis does not happen suddenly, we can't call it a baby/ unborn baby/fetus whenever it suits us.

Regardless if one is pro/con, what defines in tangible terms when the fetus is a human being, when it's appendages develop, when it's head is fully formed, when it's ass is operating, when what? Nobody cares, I assume.

reply

I'd say the female cares IY, as she is the one that has to live with whatever decision she makes, to terminate or to birth. The baby is screwed either way, when you look at non-existent and unethical parenting styles today.

Don't eat the whole ones! Those are for the guests. 🍪

reply

[deleted]

I'm not so sure it's about being selfless, because while there are parents who do want to adopt a child because they can't have their own, I don't see it as selfish for the female to not want to go through 9 months of pregnancy when she doesn't have any intention of keeping the child. That might be even harder for her. Yes, it is a conundrum, and women need to be aware that even though the male is half responsible for making her pregnant, it is her body and that "ultimately", she needs to understand the responsibility and consequences that sex can bring about.

Many females can go through much psychological trauma due to a decision to abort and societies harsh judgemental attitudes don't help either, when they are being labelled as murderers. People need to mind their own freakin' business. Hell, they tell their kids they are wrong just for being homosexual, so we can't expect the sheep to be pillars of strength and support for others when most are selfish, self-entitled, ignorant and dense sociopaths.

Don't eat the whole ones! Those are for the guests. 🍪

reply

[deleted]

I think abortion is questionable if long term; but then again, I don't think it is right for me to judge someone else's decision over their own body. I would never claim it as disgusting. Did you like these women Madame Che and how do you think they would feel if they knew you felt disgusted about what they did? I could claim that I think people that eat murdered animals are disgusting. Is that any better, especially people who claim to be animal lovers? That could be seen as hypocritical.

Don't eat the whole ones! Those are for the guests. 🍪

reply

[deleted]

I suppose my point is, for me to claim someone is "disgusting", just because I'm vegetarian would be harsh, judgmental and hypocritical of me, even if the body of an animal that is being eaten is a life form that has been created. Not everyone can be vegetarian if it doesn't suit their body type and it is about other deeper awareness aspects too. Besides, I haven't always been a veghead.

I don't know how to feel about women who have multiple abortions because they are too irresponsible to use birth control; but then again, this is something for them to contend and deal with. There are over 3 billion females on this planet and I can't concern myself with other peoples lack of self-awareness when having sex. Why are we concerning ourselves and pretending to care about some fetus that hasn't even been properly formed or birthed yet, when we don't tend to care or give a s<>t about humans that are already living in their physical human form?

Don't eat the whole ones! Those are for the guests. 🍪

reply

[deleted]

Late term abortions could be considered questionable, especially when there have been no health risks. There is a 3 month window I believe that is perceived as a safe period of undergoing the procedure. That said, whatever they have done with the life that is still growing inside of them, is for them to deal and contend with. It's no-one else's business. As for "morals" and religious beliefs, this is all part of the problem of judgment and condemnations issues we tend to project onto others.

Don't eat the whole ones! Those are for the guests. 🍪

reply

[deleted]

And therefore we shouldn't be rubbing our own noses into others peoples 💩, when it is not affecting or impacting our own lives personally.

Don't eat the whole ones! Those are for the guests. 🍪

reply

[deleted]

I think that is the best call Madame Che. 

Don't eat the whole ones! Those are for the guests. 🍪

reply

[deleted]

How dare you cheers a teetotaler vegetarian with an alcoholic beverage. No class whatsoever. 😉

Don't eat the whole ones! Those are for the guests. 🍪

reply

[deleted]

That's a nice policy.


I thought I was gonna die! - Roseanne Roseannadanna

reply

[deleted]

Root Beer! Well then, I guess I can make an allowance, even though I am not fond of root beer. How about a cherry cola? 

Don't eat the whole ones! Those are for the guests. 🍪

reply

[deleted]

What measurement do we have to know when the fetus becomes a baby inside the womb? Since the metamorphosis does not happen suddenly, we can't call it a baby/ unborn baby/fetus whenever it suits us.

Regardless if one is pro/con, what defines in tangible terms when the fetus is a human being, when it's appendages develop, when it's head is fully formed, when it's it's fingers wiggle is operating, when what? Nobody cares, I assume. It's more about rhetoric.

reply

[deleted]

"Murder" is the illegal taking of a person/citizen's life. A fetus has not been born yet, and so therefore, it is neither a person, nor a citizen...Having a child changes your life completely...We all make mistakes...Why should any woman be punished, for merely making a mistake, by being forced to go through with a pregnancy, that would negatively impact her life... The right to choose is the right to choose...adoption is a fine option...However, pregnancy is no walk in the park...adoption is not a fair or justified solution. Abortion is....I, personally, feel that the pro-life movement, is marked by ignorance, and a lack of empathy...they themselves, perhaps, would not want to be in that individual's situation...You can not judge someone else, until you've walked a mile, in their shoes.
________________

@ lavenderdreams, what a well thought out, careful and incisive post. Most people are too quick to judge and jump up and down, "pretending" to care, and will judge about what is going on in other peoples lives, because they are too darn cowardly and in denial about addressing their own deep-seated personal life issues. It easier to control and condemned others and stab them in the back, yet they really have no freakin' idea of what someone else's life is like. Yeah, lets concern ourselves with some gelatinous blob of something that isn't even formed or developed properly, let alone a human citizen, when they need to care more about those that are actually living and walking the planet. Not to mention the emotional and psychological issues that women who have had abortions may be going though. Until it affects them intimately, they will judge the abstract stranger and "pretend" to care about a so-called human being that was never one to begin with.

Don't eat the whole ones! Those are for the guests. 🍪

reply

[deleted]

[deleted]

But that would-be father's actions were pretty unusual. Most men who are responsible for an accidental / unwanted pregnancy would simply offer to pay for his partner's abortion; if he had moral issues with that, he could then instead try and convince his partner to put the resulting baby up for adoption. He took an EXTREME measure to end that unwanted pregnancy, whereas abortion is a MOST COMMON way of ending pregnancy. Even when abortion was illegal, virtually no one involved in the so-called 'back alley' abortions were actually prosecuted - either doctor or would-be mother.

There are also cases of doctors being prosecuted for extreme abortions - i.e 'partial-birth' or late-term operations.

So I wouldn't hold your breath thinking that all of our abortion laws will be overturned any time soon, simply due to the case you mention.

reply