MovieChat Forums > Ronin (1998) Discussion > Seven fat years and seven lean years

Seven fat years and seven lean years


Within the first couple of scenes after the team has arrived at the warehouse where they will be briefed, they're sitting around and Vincent says something like "Seven fat years and seven lean years," to which Sam replies, "That's what it says in the Bible." Then Sean Bean's character asks Sam if he's ever killed anybody, to which Sam replies, "I hurt somebody's feelings, once." Does the exchange about the fat and skinny years have any relevance or underlying meaning, because it seems very unrelated to anything that is going on. The only thing I could come up with, was that maybe it refers to the life of the ronin; They had "fat" years of providence ("masters", work, etc.), but now they are suffering in the "lean" years. However, we don't actually hear the origin of the term "ronin" until Sam's discussion with Jean-Pierre, so that probably doesn't work. Anyways, if anyone else has some ideas, I'd love to hear them.

reply

[deleted]

Great reply & signature line!


"Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day"

reply

Despite being formidable (and the ultimate winner of the final shoot-out) Vincent makes no pretense of being military or quasi-military, unlike everybody else there except Larry (the other relatively trustworthy member of this team). Vincent feels a bit out of his depth: he doesn't know military terms, he hasn't done an operation like this before, he doesn't know how to plan an ambush, and so on. He's looking for some kind of friendly human contact, because he's good with that.

He starts with the seven fat years and the seven lean years, on the basis of some shared culture. Except for Deirdre, everyone there is an older White man from an era where some nodding acquaintance with Christianity was standard. He uses that to frame what everybody is doing there in an amoral way: they're not doing this criminal job because they're bad people, it's just that good times come and then bad times come, the LORD giveth and the LORD taketh away.

As andrewmcdonaldgloucester says, Sam gives a noncommittal reply, sociable but adding nothing, except that he is sort of acknowledging that he has spent time reading the Bible too. And he's not rejecting Vincent. On that slender basis, Vincent is sufficiently emboldened to continue trying to make himself a new friend.

By admitting his ignorance and being actively ingratiating, Vincent is potentially putting himself in a weaker position than Sam. But neither then nor later does Sam ever treat Vincent as a suppliant who's weaker than him. And by the end of the adventure, Sam is probably very glad he never condescended to Vincent. Vincent is not weak, he's just a face man doing what he does.

Spence on the other hand is funny. Sean Bean rules in this movie, even in great company. You can see how he's dealing with his nerves in a counterproductive way. His questions are all wrong, and it's amusing to imagine them being answered truthfully and in detail. For example when he asks what he can infer from Deirdre's charming Irish lilt, the straight answer might go like this: "Oh me boss is an Irish terrorists who thinks you're all mercenaries irrelevant to the cause, and he'd rather kill ye all than pay ya, and he'll probably give me orders to that effect later, which I'll carry out." Not much to smile about there. Or imagine him asking people about who they've killed before around the table. Gregor: "All sorts, too many to remember, but mostly women and kids, on missions even other KGM men didn't want." Vincent: "Only a couple of witnesses and loudmouths, like you." And so on.

Sam's polite, humorous, de-escalating reply that he hurt someone's feelings once is also a warning to Spence. He's not threatening to kill Spence, but he is threatening to hurt Spence's feelings if Spence continues being a problem, and he knows just how to do it, because he's already decided that Spence is a fake, and he's confident that if need be he'll be able to bluff Spence into admitting it. Spence, really brilliantly played by Sean Bean, has no idea of this. It's not that he incorrectly believes Sam is somehow bluffing, he doesn't get that he is being warned at all. So later after Spence has made himself enough of a pest, Sam goes ahead and hurts his feelings.

reply

vincent is doing what he does. indeed.



Silver Lining Accounting Service: "We satisfy or we eat it."

reply

Great explanations! ...I was hoping to come to this board and see people here that truly understand the film.

reply

Andrew & David, both awesome write-ups, hitting on a lot of the "subtleties" missed by people who don't like this movie. This really is a smart, character-driven action movie.

I agree with the interpretations about the quote, it's really the only thing(s) I can think of that would make sense in the context. That said, there were a couple / few times in the movie where I simply couldn't hear the spoken dialogue, even after rewinding. I think this was one of them. But I think it speaks a lot about this movie when even if some dialogue is missed, the underlying communication, body language, and character bonds formed are still clear as day and have the impact intended.


--
"All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... time to die."

reply

I have that problem with a lot of movies. Don't these people watch movies and realize that their mumbling is incomprehensible. You would think that they would make some attempt to speak clearly and loudly enough to let the dialog be discerned by the audience. We get that explosions are loud and whispering is quiet but come on. Sorry to rant but that really gets on my nerves.

reply

I thought I would mention that Vincent appears to have been more than a simple Parisian thief...in the scene where one of the Russians has the drop on him, and suggests he knows him from somewhere, Vincent says simply, "Vienna." Vienna, with its international occupation zones, was a hotbed of espionage and counterespionage activity during the Cold War. This suggests that Vincent was formerly French Secret Service, and the Russian was previously KGB.

Also, the whole thing about "fat years and lean years" is classic Memet dialogue, but provides the audience with some background about how the mercenaries were formerly Cold warriors who had fallen on hard times.

reply

I definitely agree with the detailed and straight-forward answers previously given about this quote; but since nobody has pointed it out yet, I figure I'll at least give mention to the biblical allusion which should probably be attributed to Genesis, Book 41.

An article on Wordpress puts it in layman's terms:

"There is an account from the Book of Genesis in the Bible which relates a story about Joseph the dreamer. In this story Joseph was a servant in Egypt and Pharaoh, the ruler of Egypt, had a very strange dream. In his dream he saw seven fat cows and also seven meagre looking cows. Then the seven meagre cows devoured the seven fat cows and the Pharaoh was very perplexed about what the dream meant. To cut a long story short only Joseph was able to interpret the dream. What the dream meant was that the land of Egypt would go through a time of plenty when the land would yield great increase. But following this period there was going to be lean times – a period of great famine in the land. Joseph advised the Pharaoh to store up the surplus flood during the seven fat years so that when the lean times set in they would still have plenty to live on until the good times returned."

shiningintellectual.wordpress.com/2011/01/08/the-seven-fat-years-vs-the-seven-lean-years

reply

It the beginning it's only evident that these guys are mercenaries of some kind, hiring out to a bidder; not necessarily the highest one either. They once had a steady income ("fat years"; alluded to by their exchanges) but have now fallen on hard times ("lean years").

If anyone here can find the book of short stories called The Rollerball (yes, THAT Rollerball!) Murder Stories by William Harrison, there is also a great short story: a former Army soldier who is now a mercenary; living well but itching for action. He comments that people say his kind are obsolete.

That story was written 'round 1970, but it's possible the ronin felt that way too.

reply

This is a case of the dialogue just not being very well written.

"Seven fat years" is supposed to be a "cool" little line that efficiently explains the ronins common need for money. Perhaps showing all the guys know their biblical references as well.
BUt it just feels forced into the scene and as a viewer you're kinda left wondering if you were missing something..

Most of the dialogue in in the beginning feels quite off dialogue-wise.
The exchanges are very unnatural, the flow is terrible, they shift topics too fast.
Sure you can argue that this is because they are on the edge about meeting new people and that ronins are not very socially adept. But I disagree, there are lots of replies which just make the characters sound plain dumb, not at all like seasoned ronins.
(Like when they ask DeNiro about interrogation. "They give you a hard time?" Jeez...no *beep* Sherlock)

I just think these kinds of topics could've been avoided with a better script.

reply