MovieChat Forums > Le violon rouge (1999) Discussion > I think many of you missed the point of ...

I think many of you missed the point of the film *spoilers


At the risk of starting a small, tactical, flame war, I think most of the posters have missed the point of the movie entirely. But to start on a positive note, I would like to say this movie is a masterpiece, an instant classic. Nearly flawless, its minute shortcomings will only be mentioned later.

The point of the movie, which the redeemed anti-hero Morritz discovers through his character-arc near end the end, is people and relationships are what we should value most highly. Objects, no matter how beautiful, should not be so coveted, as this can lead to great trouble, as exemplified by the "curse of the Red Violin." Morritz isn't stealing the Red Violin at the end of the movie!

Card 1 - The Moon - You will live a long life, full and rich, there is travel ahead, a long journey.
Card 2 - Hanged Man - A curse hangs over you madam. Danger to those who come under your "thrall", and there will be many. Sickness and death.
Card 3 - The Devil - Then I see a time of lust and energy. You have a Lazarus soul. A man comes into your life, a handsome man.
Card 4 - Justice - There will be a trial, a great trial, before a powerful magistrate and you will be guilty. Beware the heat of the fire.
Card 5 - Death, upside down - Could be good news.

The owners, or possessors of the violin in order...

Nicolo Bussotti - Even though tragedy befalls him, he is not a victim of the curse, as he does not covet the violin. Even though he considers it perfect, he wants to give it to his son. And it is very clear he loves his wife and desperately wants a child. Also the curse follows the "humors", or the blood used to coat the violin. Since we know the Red Violin was the last he ever produced, it is likely he died shortly after making it, probably of a broken heart.

Trader - He probably came into possession of the violin during the estate sale after Bussotti died. No wealthy merchant or royalty had commissioned the piece, it was to be a gift to his son, so even though it was of the finest quality, it might have been taken by an apprentice in lieu of back wages or sold at auction. Perhaps Bussotti owed the merchant money and this was to be his payment? He does not covet it, so it passes through his hands to the monks.

The Monastery - The monks buy it, but do not covet it, lending it as a reward to the star violinist in their orchestra of orphans, hey thats a good name for a band. We see it pass from boy to boy, until Kaspar Weiss. Although he had a bad heart and is a small child worthy of sympathy and empathy. He covets the violin, even sleeping with it. The mere thought of losing it actually causes him to have a fatal heart attack.

Georges Poussin - He never possessed the violin and does not fall under its spell. There is much debate on this forum about who robbed the grave. It was the Gypsies and not Poussin. I base my conclusion on the following: Poussin is clearly interested in the violin, but not to sell. He rebukes his wife for suggesting its sale and only mentions the sale of the violin to Prince Mansfeld as a "possibility" to be discussed after the boy has played for him, which is his real goal. Of course that thought causes the poor boy's death. If Poussin had taken it from the grave, he would have either kept it, or sold it to the Prince for a princely sum, as they say, not to "scum" Gypsies. Had Poussin fallen under its "thrall" the story would have followed him to his demise. In wonderful acting, Poussin does "perk-up" upon its mention by the Monks, but seems resigned to their conclusion that it should go with the boy to be played in heaven. *sniff

The Gypsies - Known throughout Europe as beggars, thieves and con-artists, hence the term "gyped", they came across the fresh grave and robbed it, looking for anything of value, but finding only the violin. We hear the Gypsy music being played while we are looking at the re-opened grave, before we cut to the Gypsies. None of the Gypsies covet the violin. We see it being passed down through the generations, always being played in the celebratory setting of a family gathering. No real harm befalls them.

Frederick Pope - He covets the violin from the instant he hears it, following the sound across a meadow to the source. The famed Pope copy results from this meeting. He mentions "some arrangement" can be reached when he finds the Gypsies trespassing on his land. I believe the arrangement was a trade in which Pope would commission a copy of the finest quality to be exchanged for his use and ownership of the Red Violin. While it was being manufactured, the Gypsies could live on his land. Pope has fallen under the "spell" of the violin. During his concert he pants and grunts as if he is making love to the violin. He even kisses it when he is finished. During the sex scenes, is he making love to the woman, or the violin? Notice when Victoria points the gun at his chest, he hold the violin out and away, most people would hide behind anything to deflect a bullet. His obsession costs him the woman he loves and he commits suicide.

The Chinese Servant - How does the servant come to possess the violin? When he sells it later in China, it has the bullet mark, so it can't have been repaired in England. The copy had already been ordered when the damage was inflicted. The Gypsy girl leaves Pope and the Red Violin, the day of the shooting, still expecting to receive the copy at a later date. Upon his suicide, Victoria controls his estate. She hates the violin, she shot the violin. It's most likely she gave it to servant, just wanting to forever get it out of her sight and mind. Had he "taken" it, that would have shown greed, but nothing bad happens to him, which is the pattern of the film for those who covet the violin.

Chinese Store Owner - We don't know how much time has past when the servant comes to sell the violin. He is wearing a suit and has a suitcase. Has he just arrived from England? He looks older. I think he had the violin for several years, without realizing its value and coveting it, and now wants to sell it to finance a trip. Perhaps this trip is to visit family? The merchants main interest in the violin are the rubies in the scroll. He removes and sells them probably recouping most or all of his investment. The violin then hangs in his shop for many more years, as illustrated by his advanced age when he re-sells it. It has been repaired during this time, the "horse-glue, hack-job" referred to later. You can see the repaired neck when he hands it to Xiang's mother.

Xiang Pei - She covets the violin and it leads to trouble in her life. The Red Violin is the perfect symbol of the greed and avarice millions of communist Chinese were denouncing, or being forced to denounce, at the time. Rather than leave it be or destroy it, Xiang feels drawn to play it one last time, which leads to her son telling her husband, who turns her over to the cultural police. We don't learn her ultimate fate, but it being in her possession certainly leads to problems. I don't think she was killed immediately but perhaps she was sent away to a re-education camp.

Chou Yuan - He comes to covet not only the Red Violin but dozens of other fine musical instruments which become the basis for the auction we see in the movie. None of the coveting of the violin is truly evil, nor is Yuan's. We find him dead of old age, having died in the attic amongst his "treasure-trove" of antique western musical instruments. The tragedy is that he probably never was able to play any of them again, for fear someone would overhear. And he probably spent every remaining day of his life in fear of being discovered and punished.

Charles Morritz - He has been under the spell of the violin for years. Morritz begins by formulating the plan to acquire the Pope copy for comparison purposes, but when he hears the red violin being played he decides he must have it, and the copy provides the way to execute such a plan.
How much would Morritz make, and more importantly what is he risking? Guesstimates - There were 72 items in the auction, starting with a cello with a reserve of $10,000. The reserve on the Bussotti, was $250,000 and it sold for $2,400,000. So lets assume that most items went for 10 times their reserve, and the items increased in value, but only the last two items sold for fortunes. I estimate the other 70 items to have sold for $14,000,000, approximately $200,000 apiece, plus the Strad and the Bussotti, at $1,950,000 and $2,400,000, for a grand total of $18,300,000. If the auction house takes a fee of 10%, Duvals grossed approximately $1,830,000 for holding this auction. If Morritz's fee was 10% of their fee, he made $183,000 for his three weeks worth of work. If it was 5%, which would be 1/2 of 1% of the total value of the auctioned items, he made $96,000. Stradivarius copies routinely sell for $20,000 or more and the fictional Bussotti is considered to be in that league. The one and only copy of the famed "Pope Red Violin" would have to command at least $30,000, but probably more in the range of $50,000. If he were using the copy only for comparison purposes he probably could have "rented" it and billed it to Duvals. But we know he buys it because of the line, "and more of your money," from Evan Williams the restorer and accomplice.

If he can afford to buy the famous Pope copy, he obviously makes a very comfortable living, but it is probably not enough to outbid others in an open auction. So what is he risking when he decides to steal the Bussotti? At the very least he risks his professional reputation, but in addition there would likely be prison and fines. In short he is risking it all to posses the Red Violin.

We know he has done extensive research into Bussotti and the violin, as his hotel room clearly illustrates. This research could have easily lead him to know the generalities of the violin's history, but not the fortunetelling we the audience know. It is during the Ruselsky private viewing session, which also seems to be hotly debated, that Morritz decides to steal the Red Violin.

Ruselsky is a master violinist, a la Itzhak Perlman, and not just a collector. This film evidences this by, his private showing, where he is allowed to actually play the violins before the auction, Mme Leroux's comment that she has the recording of the piece he plays on the Strad, there is a Grammy on a shelf in his office, and also by the autograph seeker at the actual auction. He also has an orchestra waiting for him during this scene and he says "they can wait". Some people seemed confused by Morritz's line about the Strad needing to be "played by a master" to be fully appreciated, after Ruselsky said it was, "tight on the top, stronger over the break." This is ribbing between friends. Morritz knows Ruselsky well enough so this barb passes without causing any anger. Later at the auction, Ruselsky waves at him as he enters the room.

Morritz attempts to dissuade Ruselsky from even playing the Red Violin. But as he plays, Morritz falls completely under the musical spell as he hears it for the first time, and at the hands of a master, no less. Did Ruselsky know he was playing the famous "Red Violin", when he said "nothing special" afterward? Well he just criticized an authenticated Stradivarius, so my guess is he never fawns over an instrument he is considering buying at auction. His later outrage on the telephone, where he says, "I knew it as soon as I saw it, and I said it.", is simply a mis-remembering of the previous events after reading the paper and feeling that he was mis-lead. His keen eye did spot it, and he wanted to play it, but he certainly never said, "I want this violin." or "This is the famous red violin." This is part of the theme of the movie, people don't always recognize something of true value. Even though the audience knows it has the most perfect resonance's Evan Williams has ever recorded, the bidders don't know this.

The allure of owning the Red Violin is different for each of the main bidders.

Older Ming's attendance at the auction can only mean his mother survived. Would she have told young Ming, or her husband, what she did with the violin, after just having been sold-out? After Ming reached adulthood, Xiang probably told him that she had given it to her old music teacher Yuan. After Yuan's death, the details of the auction and the contents of his "treasure trove" would have become public knowledge. Lot 72, the violin up for auction at the end of the movie, is the real Red Violin. It has been switched back only moments before by Morritz. There are other reasons why Ming stops bidding. First, he is blind as a bat, wearing thick glasses and would not be able to "spot" the original from the copy from 30 feet away. He has to ask his assistant if the violin is even in view and is looking at the picture in the catalog when he says, "It's not at all how I remember it, perhaps if I heard it again." This is revealing. He wants the violin because it represents a re-capturing of his youth. He wants to re-establish the relationship he had with his mother before he sold her out to the communists. Of course it doesn't look the same, your mother isn't playing it for you before you learned how ugly the world can be.

Nicolas Olsberg - This guy is a great character. He is worried to death about missing the auction, yet still takes the time to ask for a receipt from the cab driver, assuredly for reimbursement by the Pope Foundation. From his comments about Pope we know he is the type of person to be obsessive and we can only wonder what fate he would have had with the violin coming under his care, if not truly under his ownership.

Modern Monks - It was only after the death of Frederick Pope and his commissioning of a copy to be made of his prized Red Bussotti, that the order becomes aware that the red violin they owned for over 100 years, over a century ago, and which was robbed from their prodigies grave, was the famous red Bussotti owned by Pope. But obviously at some point they became aware of the history of the violin and were prepared to bid on it, probably with the backing of the Vatican. They drop out rather early.

Ruselsky - If you subscribe to the reincarnation theories put forth in other threads, Morritz does not represent the reincarnated husband the fortunetelling servant woman Cesca tells Anna Bussotti to go to in the last flashback, its Ruselsky. We don't know for certain, but Ruselsky isn't wearing a wedding ring and never mentions children. The woman sitting next to him at the auction is probably his personal assistant. In his office we see only one picture and it looks like him. He has many violins, statues, books and awards, but no pictures of family. He has spent his life in pursuit of musical excellence. Music is his true love. Perhaps him winning the auction is the wife returning to the husband? The movie is ending, the prophecy is complete with the upside-down death, a possible good sign. Perhaps Ruselsky will cherish the violin but not covet it as he obviously has many other fine specimens, and the curse will be lifted?

continued...

reply

continued...

Why do I think Morritz is returning the real Red Violin at the end of the movie and NOT stealing it? For reasons already explained and... Evan Williams is obviously his accomplice and doesn't expect to see him at the auction. The two only have the time from when the door to the gallery closes, until they walk to where the violins are hanging, for discussion. This is not enough time to talk someone into risking their career and possibly prison to switch the violins. And certainly not enough time to haggle over a bribe. It is however, time to announce you've changed your mind about a calculated plan, days in the making.

This is what it may have sounded like:

Williams: What the hell are you doing here?
Morritz: I'm switching them back.
Williams: What about our deal, I stuck my neck out for you?
Morritz: I'll pay you anyway.
Williams: You'll get caught, security is everywhere.
Morritz: Then you'd better help, because I'm putting it back.

Williams then quickly moves past the violins to run interference for the switch by asking the handler some inane question. The next evidence is Morritz's reaction to the DNA test in the elevator. He looks shocked when the doors reopen because he is reading that the previously unidentified organic substance in the lacquer is human blood. He now knows the stories he read in the history of violin about Bussotti using blood from his dead wife to make the Red Violin were true and not just fable. This also adds to his dilemma. Because he has already made the switch, it is possible the information about the blood in the report might later be revealed and the same test would show the copy to be just that. Next we see Morritz in his hotel room, looking at the violin. A picture hangs on the glass behind the violin. It's a drawing of Anna Bussotti, probably done by a contemporary Italian master, which is why it survives. I believe it is in this moment that he understands the violin and its curse. He is thinking of Bussotti, the renown luthier, who made his instruments not to be coveted, as evidenced by his destroying the fine work of the apprentice, but to be sold to make a living and to be enjoyed by those who play and listen.

Morritz has a wife and daughter at home, and he makes a very good living. For what is he risking it all? If he is the reincarnation of Bussotti, he already has that which Bussotti wanted most in life, a family. Morritz is nervous leaving Duvals not because he has the real Red Violin in his case, but because even though he has made the switch, he is afraid the ploy has been discovered, which is essentially the same. Even if Duvals kept it a secret because he didn't actually go through with the theft, they certainly wouldn't work with him again.
And finally, the piece de resistance, the phone conversation Morritz has immediately after "stealing/returning" the violin. He calls his wife because he has learned the lesson of the violin. We only hear him, but I imagine this is the other end of the conservation:

Morritz: Hey baby its me.
Wife: You missed your daughters birthday.
Morritz: Yeah, I'm sorry.
Wife: Did you get my messages?
Morritz: Yes
Wife: Did you know her birthday was yesterday?
Morritz: Yes
Wife: Why didn't you call?
Morritz: I wanted to everyday, but something came up. But its over now and I'm coming home.
Wife: Well would you like to talk to her?
Morritz: Oh yeah, may I speak to her.
Daughter: Hello.
Morritz: Hi honey, its daddy.
Daughter: Daddy!
Morritz: How are you?
Daughter: Fine, I miss you daddy.
Morritz: Oh I miss you too. I'm coming home and I'm bringing something very special.

The something very special is the Pope copy of the worlds greatest violin, not a bad belated birthday gift for a little girl. But he is also bringing his new attitude that family is the most important thing, as he has been negligent in this area. Its also interesting that as his limo drives into the night, a full moon is seen in the background. The Moon tarot card began the the reading, Anna viewed a full moon the night before her death as did Nicolo on the night she died. Does this full moon signify the end of the journey for Anna or the beginning of a new one for Morritz or perhaps both? If Morritz is the reincarnation of Bussotti, has Anna, as his cursed masterpiece, helped him to find what he lost so many lifetimes before?

Minor plot holes

How could Poussin, who must have visited the monastery several times before, not have noticed the prized red violin used by their star pupil? Would he not have been training their lead violinist in his obvious search for his next protege?

How could Morritz, even as a trusted consultant to the auction house, enter an antique musical instruments auction, while in session, with a violin case? Wal-mart won't let you bring a bag into the store!

We see five different generations of Gypsies playing the violin before it reaches Pope. This dates the Pope copy to approximately 1880 or 200 years after its inception in 1681. Its my understanding the few imitations of Stradivari which fool the experts, and sometimes don't, date from the early 1800's, 100 years after his "golden age." It's hard to believe that an expert like Morritz could imagine pulling off the deception with a copy 200 years younger than the original?

To the limo driver, after Duvals, Morritz says, "Take me home." He doesn't live in Montreal, he was headed to the airport before his stop at the auction.

I gladly forgive these few minor instances because of the technical brilliance of this film.

However I do have a major question with Samuel L. Jackson playing the part of Morritz. At the time of the films making, and still today, Jackson is known primarily for the violence-action genre. I can completely understand an actor who thinks he is beginning to be typecast, finding this marvelous story and wanting to play the lead. But was it smart to cast him? Even though he does a competent job as Morritz, I think he seriously hurt this movies box office and award potential, even though this movie was most likely profitable based on the numbers supplied by IMDB.

Honestly, say its your job to cast Morritz, an expert on antique stringed instruments, does Samuel L. Jackson spring to mind? He's probably not in the first 150 actors people would think of to play this role. I don't mean to sound too down on S.L.J, but it did win an Oscar and it is a great movie, but it only made $10 million at the U.S. box office? No one who knew who Jackson was, wanted to see him in some silly movie about a violin. And the normal class of person who might have gone to see this probably stayed away thinking, how good could it be if it has that crazy hit man from Pulp Fiction in it?

reply

I think you're right. I watched the movie again last night and I believe he had stolen the red violin earlier.

Something about the way he was sitting in his hotel room with the case open, looking at the drawing, made me think he was realizing that the violin was too dangerous for him to keep.

Then what he said to his wife about something coming up, but that it was over. His obsession with the violin ended and he had to take it back.

reply

Of course he stole it. He had no desire for the imitation. He wanted it for his daughter.... "something very special". And the bidder Rulesky obviously had no idea what it really was. Didn't even recognize it when he played it. He only wanted it when he realized its monetary value. Had Rulesky ended up with it, it would have been a disappointing ending for me.

There was one loop hole in the film, that didn't work. We went over it on previous posts, so I won't repeat it here. But other than that small part, this film is just about perfect.

reply

I agree with you.

I think the "curse" of the red violin was broken by Moritz stealing and then returning it. By resisting stealing it, he's freed the violin.

I agree he's bringing his daughter the Pope copy. Otherwise he would have been run down in the street by the car, not just startled by a near miss. And I think he realized that.

Even the Pope copy would be a fabulous violin for a student. Of more than adequate quality, even if she's a prodigy. I think that's the violin he's bringing home. And maybe...a story about a very special violin.

reply

[deleted]

wrong, he took the real red violin home to his daughter

reply

This thread is proof positive of how people will ignore, invent and rationalize details to support their personal beliefs and convictions.

I appreciate that this is just a story and the fact that there is a lot of discussion on the details elevates its complexity and makes it interesting. My observation is that this sort of thing happens with real life facts too, where people can draw totally opposite conclusions to how things actually happened.

Anyway, I thought that it was quite clear Moritz liberated (or "stole" if you like) the violin. Whether that is an ending you "prefer" is not the point and should not color any judgements if you are merely after the truth.

The only 2 authorities on this subject who know for certain what was intended (writers Girard and McKellar), are unfortunately not going to make it clear, because there is no need, and because ambiguity just creates more interest for the film. But just reading the film events at face value (no hypothetical insertions of events and motives that have not been overtly shown), the conclusion seems quite self evident, and is in keeping with the story arc.

For what it is worth, someone wrote in the FAQ section of IMDB:
"Girard considers Ruselsky to be the "villain" of the movie because he wanted only to possess the Red Violin, and screenwriter Don McKellar makes the comment that he feels Morritz DID end up with the Red Violin and that the curse was lifted because he was empathizing with the violin for the right reasons."
which suggests no "double bluff" was intended at the end. Unfortunately I cannot find evidence for these quotes (and I do not have any DVD commentary on my disc), but I suspect that even if the writers came straight out and said "Moritz has the real red violin", people will still come up with a way of arguing that it was meant as the opposite.

reply

What does 'wanted only to possess the Red Violin' actually mean? That R intended never to eat or sleep again if he had the instrument? Of course not. It means he wanted to own it. The same might be said of everyone who actually did own it.

But this makes no sense with what we are shown onscreen. R, a musician, will never want to play it? This is like saying Dave Gilmour 'only wants to possess' the #0001 Stratocaster so therefore, it would be better if someone stole it from him and gave it to their daughter. It doesn't makes sense, let alone stand as a moral position, on any level.

All very well for the writers to say R is the villain when they give us nothing in the character of R to form such an opinion, except, and boy is this a big except, an Eastern European, presumably Jewish, identity. We might be able to give that as a pass since making a Jew a villain does not by itself make one a bigot. But we also have a decidedly disturbing depiction of Gypsies in the film as well.

That such a potentially, and in parts, actual, beautiful film such as this could contain such garbage is what prevents it from being a masterpiece.

reply

I LOVE what you wrote, it makes sense.
But of course as someone else wrote, one could find evidence and plot holes to support a few other story lines.
The best thing for me is that this could be debated well into the night by folks who take the time to study this work of art in depth.
I accept your view on SLJ. A bit of a gear change. But actors want to act and not become a caricature, he may have had the pick at the time.
What of Denzel Washington or Ralph Fiennes???

reply

Thank you DATo,

The watching, re-watching, re-watching and analysis of the movie occupied the better part of my weekend. I found the various other threads to be so diverse and interesting as to necessitate my own in-depth study.

Yes, this movie leaves a LOT to interpretation and if your post is a flame, we should all be so lucky to be burned.

I may have to buy this movie because upon reading your post, I had to retrieve the movie envelope before the postman arrived.

1. "This bugged me so I checked it out and at the very very end of the scene Pope pulls the violin close to his face but it cannot be determined if he actually kisses it .... close enough ... I'll concede the point ... you win."

Going frame-by-frame, we do see Pope's head tilt to the right as he brings the violin up to his cheek, which is typical of a kiss and his lips are pursing. The cut to the manor house comes immediately thereafter, but if his lips didn't actually touch the violins neck, they couldn't have been more than a fraction of an inch away.

Upon re-watching this scene just now, I noticed something I hadn't before. The only two people who don't immediately start to applaud when Pope finishes, are Victoria, who leaves, and the Gypsy, who begins to applaud only after her father goads her.

I interpret this to mean that whether or not Pope is actually kissing the violin, it is clear to both his current paramours, he loves it more than them. It's also possible the song he plays, "created in a moment of inspiration," he has played for each of the women and they are feeling violated that their "secret lovemaking" has just been witnessed by the public and who are now applauding like voyeurs.

2. My initial fleeting thought was Poussin robbed the grave, but further analysis has lead me to conclude it was the Gypsies. It was only on careful analysis that I noticed the over-layed Gypsy music which I took to be the producers clue as to who the thieves were. As we look up as Poussin during his conversation with the monks about the violin, his facial expressions are excellent acting. His performance was probably my favorite, but its so hard to choose.

3. Yes, my Pope-copy theory is a stretch, but I am just filling-in holes. Gypsies are vagabonds, they have no leverage over Pope, as illustrated by their offer to leave by sundown. Pope could very easily ride into town and have them arrested and petition a judge for the violin as payment for rent.

Pope doesn't have the violin for very long and I can't imagine Victoria or the servant commissioning a copy from a master luthier, so I think it was ordered immediately, by Pope, to trade to the Gypsies. Everyone is happy under this scenario.

4. I went frame-by-frame again and the object in the scroll, clearly radiates a red light twice under the Chinese merchants magnifying glass. You can also clearly see the facets typical of a cut stone. That doesn't mean its a ruby, but it sure looks like one.

The other poster is correct about the store, we do see it again later in a non-commercial capacity. I hadn't thought about the store inheriting the curse, which is possible. I just associated it as a repository for "western" culture, which is why the communists would have closed it.

5. If memory serves, its right after they see the Bussotti label inside the violin with the special camera, that Morritz mentions isn't there a copy. It's Williams who mentions he knows who has the copy, but that he should report this to his supervisors. I think its at that moment both of them know what they have and know they are going to switch the violins. But when does the switch occur? Why switch during the show with security present and not when its just two guys working late a night with no one around?

7. I now think you are right about Ruselsky having the option to buy before the auction. I must admit I don't know enough about high-end auctions to be certain, but my original thought was, Why would the Chinese agree to a private-buyer instead of an auction? This could obviously lead to fraud, giving someone a cut-rate deal, instead of letting the item go to auction.

But I realized I was being influenced by the knowledge that the Strad sells for more than the 1.7 or 1.8 million Morritz tells Ruselsky it will go for. It actually sells for $1,940,000, so his assessment was very accurate. It is very likely that he was there to play and make an offer on any instrument, subject to the approval of the auction house and the indepedent appraiser, both of whom were present. I suppose its possible that the auction contract might include a pre-auction clause as long as the sale is done with an outside appraiser. The argument Duvals would make to the Chinese government is, we got you a guaranteed 1.7 from our private sale, if it went to auction it might have gone for less, or not even reached the the reserve.

Regarding your point about Ruselsky not bidding on the Strad at the actual auction. We will never know, maybe he would have, except the chance to own the famous Pope Bussotti Red Violin trumped any interest he might have had in the Strad?

What Ruselsky said, although its not exactly what you typed, is what convinced me. *speculating on Leroux.

Leroux: It's too late... (she continues, but he interrupts)
Ruselsky: No.
Leroux: Forget about it. (she finishes)
Ruselsky: NO! I won't forget about it. He lied. He lied to me and I knew it as soon as I saw it, and I said it.
Leroux: I'm sure Mr. Morritz wouldn't lie to you.
Ruselsky: (Ignoring her point) This instrument should be mine!
Leroux: We look forward to seeing you at the auction.
Ruselsky: Sonofabitch!

At first I thought he was saying it should be his because he was the greatest violinist in the world, at least in his own mind. But now I agree with you, he says that because he was there with a "right", or an opportunity to buy before the auction. Had Morritz presented him the famous Red Violin it would have "sounded better" to him and he might have accepted a pre-auction purchase price in the vicinity of the Strad. Had it not been for the Pope Foundation guy, doesn't everyone else drop out by $1 million?

8. Yes my Ming theory is pure speculation, but it was the only way I could put Ming at the auction talking about remembering the violin. If they put a bullet in his mothers head as soon as she returns, who would ever be able to put two-and-two together 50 years later?

11. "I think he simply made the decision to steal it at the last possible moment because he WAS a man of conscience."

So a man of conscience would STEAL the violin, or return it?

"Why else would he have been reluctant to answer the man calling after him as he was leaving the auction? After all if he had the fake there was nothing for them to hold against him"

He wouldn't have to be caught with the real violin to have his professional reputation destroyed as it would be obvious to everyone at Duvals what he had at least "tried" to do with the copy. Imagine Mr. Duval pulling him in his office, So why did you buy the famous Pope copy yourself rather than renting it for comparison purposes and putting it on your expense list? Why did you have the copy with you backstage at the auction and without someone present? Even if Morritz says, prove it, Duvals is very likely to refuse his services in the future, the reasons will get around and he will find himself professionally shunned in what has to be a small circle.

He's risking all that, not once, but forever to possess the Red Violin.

"I saw that as a supplication on her part for him to save her (the violin)."

I saw this as the moment Morritz realizes the violin doesn't matter, it didn't matter to Bussotti and it shouldn't matter so much to him.

"I have never considered the following before, and I am not sure that this is what the writers intended, for you must admit that the possibility of him stealing it is just as valid as replacing the original and taking back the fake."

I will admit that the possibility is there, but damn hes taking an enormous risk, which doesn't end that night. Ruselsky would be playing a different instrument than he played before, he might notice something and begin inquiries. Someone might mention to Ruselsky that the Pope copy was purchased only days before he bought the real one and shipped to Montreal, the very location of the auction, coincidence? If he gives it to his daughter, even telling her its just a very expensive copy, what if she breaks it? What if it becomes known Morritz gave the copy to his daughter and Ruselsky asks for the two violins be tested just for curiosity sake?

"because he was risking everything to SAVE the violin?!"

Everyone seems to be so down on Ruselsky. What is so bad about him owning the Red Violin? Millions of people will hear it playing the finest songs by a master player. Isn't that all Bussotti could have hoped for from the violin, except for his son to have played it first?

12. The news of the blood certainly shocked him. They used to bleed people back then, so I suppose it could have been Bussotti's own. But if there wasn't a wife's blood legend, why not just a curious look from Morritz, like hmmmm blood? But this was more like, Oh my God! The legend is true! And that is why Bussotti never made another violin, he had no more love or anger left to put into the instruments, as he had told his apprentices they must do.

14. Jackson did a good job. I would just really like to know how he ended up with the role. I mean how does this script land in his hands, there has to be a story about someone sitting next to his agent on a plane or something. But, without any snakes. Your right about the look on his face during the Ruselsky showing, he is relieved, that is good acting.

Your slavery angle is also something interesting I wouldn't have thought of, but even if you said we want it to be a black man as Morritz, S.L.J wouldn't be in my top 5. lol

reply

[deleted]

I can live with "The Fondling".

My copy is gone now but the look I remember on Williams face as being one of surprise. I may have to buy this film. His lips seems to say something like, "What the", as in "What the hell are you doing here!" And his head motions to the door, but I can't remember if Morritz is already walking toward the door or not.

It did just occur to me that security seems pretty lax if million dollar violins are just a few steps behind an unlocked door. But the crowd is pre-screened and known to have money.

"Why then would he (Williams) have that look of surprise/curiosity on his face if Moritz was bringing the fake to switch with the original? It seems that Williams would be MORE surprised to learn that Moritz wanted to switch it back."

Yes, that is my contention. Williams is VERY surprised to see Morritz. He has risked his career on the switch and thinks Morritz is on the way to airport with the original and his "check is in the mail." When he sees Morritz he knows this isn't according to plan and can't be good. As I mention below, if the real Red Violin is about to be auctioned, what does Williams get from Morritz switching it? What could he say in the 20 or so seconds they have? If the real Red Violin is the last item, then they have made no deal already for Morritz to keep it, because the bidder might take possession of it immediately after the auction ends.

Williams: What are you doing here and with that! (the case/the copy)
Morritz: I want it, the real one.
Williams: Your crazy, security is everywhere.
Morritz: Then you'd better help me.
Williams: It's about to go up, there's no time.
Morritz: I must have it. I'll pay you $50,000!
Williams: (Risking loss of career and possible jail time) Okay, but I want...(now seeing the assistant heading toward it, and stepping away from Morritz to run delay for him)

"The fake wouldn't be "something special"."

When you call it a fake, it doesn't sound so special. Lol But try calling it, the one and only copy of the finest violin ever created?

"Maybe that's the whole point. Maybe the writers are leaving it up to us to decide. Or to leave it the final, maddening unanswered question in an entire movie of unanswered questions. If that's what they are doing ... I like it."

Yes, we need a movie like this every now and then. I remember when I first saw The Usual Suspects. It was in a room with 4 or 5 other people and every opinion was different. A few minutes into the discussion everyone wanted to watch it again and people were jotting down notes. After the second viewing, every opinion had changed, but still no two agreed completely on what actually happened.

"Well ... nothing, except the writers went out of their way to make us feel Ruselsky is petty and materialistic and speaking only for myself I did not want the violin to wind up with a collector who strings them on a rack like just so many suits or pieces of merchandise"

I thought he was arrogant but from what I've seen of those types, he was not out of the ordinary. I like him because he didn't react to the "would have to be played by a master crack." I noticed all through the movie violins being hung up, during their construction, in the showing at Duvals, and in Ruselskys house. Maybe this is normal and good for a violin? I don't know.

But as for him being a collector. This movie prompted me to research violins and Ruselsky owning many is not all that uncommon. Violins have different playing characteristics. He might use one for a certain concerto because low tones are needed and use another for the midranges or highs the instrument produces.

And also since you said you were a guitarist...I've yet to meet the guitarist who hasn't just started, who has only one guitar. I wonder how many Eric Clapton or Rick Nielson has?

Regarding the moon, I knew it was close in position, I'll take your word that its in exactly in the same spot. I didn't notice it the first time, but it clearly was put there for a reason. Ah, but what reason?

Your right, there is something about those lines, they are there for a reason. I must ponder them.

"Our child will be born when the moon is full. Are you jealous of my relationship with the moon?" and "No, I'm not jealous. I know you'll come back."

There was also the line where Anna said "I'm too old too have a child."? Was that included as foreshadowing or just to explain the deaths in childbirth?

From the Salon interview with the director, "In Asia, people definitely take it further, and see a reincarnation theme in it. I am happy for them to see it that way. But I am not saying this is a film that depicts reincarnation -- this is what they're saying."

The bastard equivocates. I'm leaning back a little toward your view, but I'm having a hard time answering the following questions.

Okay, Morritz, Duvals or Williams can't buy, or even rent, the Pope copy without creating suspicion that Duvals is at least investigating the possibility they have the actual Red Violin. Williams must have used a surrogate. This is possible through wire transfers from Morritz to a friend of his who doesn't live in Montreal, but will forward the violin to them.

Duvals wouldn't mind the suspicion even if the violin didn't turn out to be the real Red Violin, because it would create buzz for the auction. So from the second the copy is mentioned and both Morritz and Williams don't alert Duvals, they are conspiring. I assumed for Morritz to steal it. Why else would Williams be taking part in what is obviously such a shady dealing? He knows he is not supposed to be doing this, his closes his office door so no one can hear.

The more I think about "your" ending in the context of the "moon" dialog, the more I am intrigued by it. However, since everything Williams and Morritz did together was suspicious and lead me to believe they were going to steal it, why wouldn't they make the switch before the auction when no one was around? What is in this for Williams? I just can't figure that one out.

If reincarnation is not meant to be a theme in the film, which is what the writer/director intimates in the Salon interview, then she, as the violin, isn't returning to her "husband" no matter if its Morritz or Ruselsky. I had this whole double reincarnation theory prepared about how Ruselsky is the reincarnated child and Morritz is the reincarnated Bussotti and the prophecy/journey is completed by Morritz "giving" the red violin to his "son" by switching it so Ruselsky can buy it. But now I think thats crap! lol

However, Morritz stealing the Red Violin and leaving with it does fulfill more of the elements in the movie than the alternative. While I don't think Ruselsky is a scumbag, Morritz has a more pure love for the violin. Bussotti planned to give the violin to his child, and Morritz has the same wish by the end, but when did he formulate that plan? Was the original plan to keep the Bussotti in hiding, to sell it...what makes sense at the time he secretly ordered the copy?

I can buy that while staring at the drawing of Anna he comes to the realization that he must steal the violin and give it to his daughter, but then we are back to: why is Williams ready, willing and able to risk so much and on such short notice?

Perhaps Morritz made the character-arc I described of re-establishing the value of his family by stealing the violin? My biggest problem with that, is that it seems to be contradictory on the surface. Did he have to steal the violin to learn what was truly important in life, which wasn't actually the violin? And this still leaves me thinking, but every day you have to live in fear of being discovered.

The special features were non existent on the DVD, perhaps so the director wouldn't give away the true meaning during his commentary. But I find myself wishing he would just tell us what he meant.

reply

[deleted]

Your good too. "This is the best discussion I have had on IMDB in a long time."

Same here. It takes a really good movie, I guess and there are too few of them.

"Did you notice that woman checking Moritz out as soon as he came into the room?"

Yes, but I didn't equate her with security, just someone curious about the second person to enter the room within minutes of the close of the auction, but she very well could have been security, probably was.

Of course the plot can't unfold if Morritz isn't allowed to take his case into the auction and he would be let in no question, but perhaps that is why he handed his coat to the guard...to distract him from his normal duty of saying, I'm sorry Mr. Morritz but I'm going to have to take/look-in that case. He might have had an Uzi in the case and gone postal.

"The movie offers what I feel are inducements to believe that Moritz left with the original but I also feel that your argument carries just as much weight to the contrary. I cannot, without reservation, maintain that I am conclusively right in my assessment any longer. You would have made a great Henry Fonda in the movie '12 Angry Men'"

Well you can be Jack Lemmon as juror #8 in the remake because now I have a reasonable doubt myself. After reading your Williams post I came up with possibilities that make "yours" very compelling.

"Since we know Williams is in on the plan, why would he be surprised unless Moritz WAS returning the fake?"

When Morritz is in his room alone before the auction, does the phone ever ring and him not pick it up? I can't remember. If it did, or whether they are leaving it up to our imagination and they left it out, I propose that Morritz had the copy and a deal with Williams, and the reason why Williams is surprised is not because he is surprised to see him at all, but because Morritz is running late! He was supposed to arrive hours earlier and make a leisurely switch. There is some dialog at times between Williams and Leroux, but I didn't notice if he said, Where is Morritz?

So could Williams be surprised because he expected Morritz hours ago? The conversation between them could be this...

Williams: Where the hell have you been?
Morritz: I'm going to make the switch now.
Williams: No, its too late.
Morritz: I'll double your cut.
Williams: The Bussotti's up next, you'll get caught.
Morritz: Then you'd better stall for me. (Williams then goes to stall for time)

Now the question would be, why did Morritz wait so long, throwing off their plan? The only answer I have is the blood report, but I am confused about the time line, which is hard to follow. He was told he could take the last couple of days off for his good work, did this create a problem with him getting back into Duvals before the auction?

If the deal was already made with Williams, and he has the copy, what was he agonizing over during the time he spent in his hotel room before going to the limo? Whether or not to actually go through with it? If he doesn't take the copy to Duvals, he and Williams are safe, but Williams will probably be angry because he was left to twist in the wind during the auction and isn't sure if he will ever see the promised money.

There is additional risk to Morritz if he actually did keep the Red Violin via the continued threat of blackmail from Williams. Maybe that is what he was agonizing over? Morritz could counter-threaten Williams with them both being exposed and losing their jobs upon receiving the threat of blackmail. But Williams might lose his job, lose his hearing, become addicted to coke or gambling, and those are all possible blackmail scenarios.

I tilted back slightly toward his keeping the violin, but if the deal is made to steal the red violin, again, why take any chances and leave with the copy, even if you are supposed to return with hours to spare and make the switch-back, perhaps before the auction has even started?

We need a reason for him to leave with the copy. I've invented more dialog.

Williams: Both violins can't be here during the day, only at night. Someone might find the Pope and ask questions.
Morritz: I'll bring the Pope with me for our night sessions and always take it with me when I leave.

This is before they know the Bussotti is such. Then once they know they have the real Bussotti based on the side-by-side comparison and the resonance testing...

Doesn't this make more sense?

Williams: Okay, so we know we have the real Bussotti and the Pope, whats the plan?
Morritz: I'll take the real Bussotti home with me tonight and then we will tell Duvals tomorrow I can't attribute the Pope in your office, they'll place a low reserve on it and it will be auctioned off two nights from now as just another part of the collection.
Williams: Then a week from now you mail me a check. Agreed.

The way I think it happened in the movie...

Williams: Okay, so we know we have the real Bussotti and the Pope, whats the plan?
Morritz: I'll take the real Bussotti home with me tonight and then we will tell Duvals tomorrow the Pope copy in your office is the Red Violin. They will photograph it and send out a press release. It will go for more than the Strad, and I will pay you the extra $ I earn as commission. (Williams is probably on salary as a lab tech.)
Williams: Then a week from now you mail me a check. Agreed.

But to get Morritz out of Duvals with the copy, "your" version...

Williams: Okay, so we know we have the real Bussotti and the Pope, whats the plan?
Morritz: I'll take the Pope copy with me tonight and tomorrow I will announce the finding of the Bussotti to Leroux. They will photograph it and send out a press release.
Williams: Why announce it as the Bussotti, and why not take it right now?
Morritz: I'm going to pay you my bonus commission for it being the Bussotti and I'm not going to take it right now because that ruins the ending of the movie! I got nothin!

lol, After leaning the other way, I'm now back to Morritz taking the Bussotti and returning it during the auction to the chagrin of Williams...

**Because I can't think of a reason why he would not take what he wanted to steal when it was easiest.**

If the plan is to take it, why even confirm to Duvals its the real Red Violin? Why not just say sorry, its a nice violin but I can't attribute it properly. Unless he needed the extra fee he would garner for finding a 2.4 million violin to pay for the Pope copy and for the payoff to Williams?

This is giving me a headache, as I think the disclosure of the Bussotti is irrational to either ending. The only reasons I can think of for revealing the presence of the Bussotti are professional prestige, and the possibility of a financial bonus, which he needs to commit the caper. Otherwise the violin would be, "lot #2, a late 19th century English violin, opening at $20,000" right after the fine French cello, if they made the switch, or "lot #55, a violin of Italian design, maker unknown, dated to the early 18th century, opening at $75,000" if they did not. Or does the violin need to be declared as the Bussotti to ensure it is last in the auction, #72, which buys them more time to make the switch because there is a reason they can't switch it earlier?

All this of course assumes the violins look identical which I don't think is possible since the age and wear patterns would be different even if the Pope copy was absolutely identical when it was made. But then we don't have a movie, so...

"Couldn't you just picture Nicolo with that scowl on his face at a Lamaze class?" He was a grumpy old cuss, wasn't he? And when she said the line, "I'm too old..." I thought even for back then she looks young enough, so it must have been just to give us a reason for her death.

"The sale of the copy by the private owner would indeed arouse suspicion later. There may even be a trail leading back to Moritz. If tests were performed later Moritz's goose would be cooked (if he took the original). No way around that one. It left me disturbed as a possible plot hole."

Me too. If Ruselsky has the copy, Morritz has no control over the future. What if one day Ruselsky travels to London and meets whomever used to own the Pope copy at a dinner. The topic is bound to come up.

Former Owner: So how do you like the real thing?
Ruselsky: What do you mean, real thing?
Former Owner: Your Bussotti.
Ruselsky: Oh, my Bussotti, yes its fabulous.
Former Owner: I used to own the famous Pope copy of it, sold it last October to a man in Montreal, right before yours was found.
Ruselsky: Funny, I bought mine at auction last October in Montreal. Hmmm.

"NO REINCARNATION DAMMIT !!! *LMAO*"

With reincarnation, I lean toward your theory. Without it, I lean toward mine.

Regarding the prophecies. Anna's was fulfilled, the child was born on a full moon. Dying after birth still counts as being born, so would being stillborn. Bussotti saying he knows she will come back to him, and the servants command to go to your husband, can only be fulfilled through reincarnation, if they are to have meaning later.

"There was too much symbolism in that second moon shot to be coincidence ... that HAD to be there for a reason and this is the only reason that makes sense to me."

I agree, it looked like it was put in with special effects, in the exact same place as you said, so it had to be there for a reason. Perhaps its only there to complete the circle of the prophecy. Her journey, as fortold by the tarot, started on the night of a full moon and ends on one. Her child was already born, but he died, she died, her husband died, but only after transferring her spirit into the violin. As you say, her fortold journey is over because it mimicked the natural stages of life and all the cards had been represented. And the movie has to end sometime.

Which leaves us with...

The Red Violin II - Anna's Revenge

Ruselsky is found strangled in his study. One of his prized violins is missing. A cryptic message in blood is scrawled on the wall. The detectives are shocked to learn the blood isn't fresh, but over 300 years old. The hunt for a murderer is on, but where will it lead?

"Somehow I feel that Francois Girard (director and co-writer) and Don McKellar (writer) are laughing their butts off at our misery *LOL* ... Did you know that Don McKellar, the co-writer of this movie was also the guy who played Evan Williams?"

Yes, I have the exact same thought, they sit, sip wine, and say, read what this idiot wrote. I read that about Williams somewhere, maybe it was in one of the threads?

Regarding your earlier posts about the lead role. I had the same thought about James Earl Jones, but thought he was too old for the young daughter angle.

reply

[deleted]

DATo,

If I am reading the previous post correctly, I'd like to ask a favor of you:

I have read all of your posts on this movie; and have re-read most of your posts (esp those with "movielover35"). . .

Request: Might we prevail upon you for a fresh formal review of the flick. IOW, could you write a 1-page summary/review (with any new insights, etc.)?

Scott V.

reply

[deleted]

"I really don't think so personally. Remember Moritz tells the guy at the airport not to let him forget his coat as well. Actually, I think that's just his way of taking precautions to literally not forget his coat *LOL* He was well known to Duval personnel by that time, I don't think they would have questioned the fact that he was carrying a violin case."

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I forget, but doesn't Nicolas Olsberg just enter the auction wearing his overcoat? I'm thinking about this from the writers perspective.

I need tension at the end, I need Morritz to be "fleeing" the auction with a man chasing him, calling to him, in Hitchcockian fashion. But why? Oh, he has left his coat, yes, that's it! In order for the audience to accept that however, I need to use it again earlier...okay, I'll stick it in the airport scene.

The writer also might use the coat to kill two birds with one stone, as the handing of the coat to the guard distracts him from his duty to search, or take, the case, even from Morritz.

From your answer DATo, I can now assert with 100 percent certainty, that you are not the chief of security for Christie's of London. Or if you are, they need to hire me, because I'm not letting anyone into and back out of, an antique violin auction, with a violin case. Not the appraiser, or even my own mother. Sorry mom. lol

I just noticed, in the credits here they list "coat attendant" Montreal, Gregory Hlady. I wonder how he was listed in the film credits. If he's listed as security guard, it bolsters my distraction theory. If he is listed as coat attendant, then its just a reason to have someone chasing after Morritz.

"When Moritz is in the hotel room just before the auction there are no ringng phones or dialogue at all just the shot of him looking at himself in the reflection of the plate glass window with Anna's picture looking on. This is one of the reasons I think that scene was meant to convey something extremely important."

It is, he is deep in though, making a decision. But is it to steal or return?

"Wait a minute .......... EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEKKKKKKKKKKKKKK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Read !!!!!! read !!!!!!!! read !!!!!!! .... *pointing down* "

I see your a stream-of-consciousness typer. This movie will do that to you.

"When they ask if this is the real Red Violin Moritz instinctively knows that they strongly suspect that it IS and he knows the worst thing he can do is to lie at this point."

The only problem with that theory, is Morritz IS the expert. They have called him in to authenticate the instruments. In the credits, I can't find the guy who told Morritz he could have the days off, but first he mentions the unorthodox expenses, then Leroux says, "Is our little red violin, The Red Violin?"

Why can't Morritz lie here? Or stall?

He can say "yes", "no", or "I'm not sure yet, I need an extra day. I'm still waiting on some tests."

If he says yes, like in the film, then I'm sure as you say, the RV immediately is removed from the relatively insecure testing laboratory, and placed wherever they have the identified Stradivarius, probably under guarded lock-and-key.

Are we to assume he received a message, see Leroux her in office immediately, arrives a few minutes later having no idea why he is being summoned, panics and confirms it authenticity?

How does he handle stress or pressure? Let's examine what we know from his limited scenes.

The maid disturbs him in his room...He seems flustered, he calls the management.
The hotel desk informs him of the report...He becomes unhinged, screaming at the clerk.
Ruselsky spies the RV in the private session...He over-reacts, he tells Ruselsky, "But not for you!", in strong tones. He then claims hes just repaired it, its fragile. He makes such a scene Leroux is clearly perplexed by his actions.
The ending...He panics when he hears his name being called, even running into oncoming traffic and almost being run down by a car.

Verdict = It would be perfectly in character for him to panic and tell them the truth even though it messes up the pre-formulated plan. However I must say, that before just now, after watching that scene 8 to 10 times, and because of the way he finishes, looking cool, calm, and suave, it always appeared to me as being part of his plan. But if that was the case, wouldn't the film have showed him proactively going to Leroux and telling them on his and Williams terms?

Perhaps a better actor might have conveyed a moment of panic in the office better than Jackson, wink!

"This is Moritz's moment of truth. He is debating this decision with himself as he is looking at his reflection in that plate glass window but he doesn't make the decision till the very last moment ... the moment he is about to get into the limo."

I now have reasonable doubt. I'm back leaning toward the Morritz ending up with the Red Violin. But I think he is making the wrong decision. lol

"HE HAS NO IDEA WHY MORITZ IS THERE BUT HE SUSPECTS IT HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE SWITCH PLAN."

After the announcement, Morritz must have spoken to Williams again because he leaves with the copy (if the reason he revealed the RV was panic), which certainly has been hidden in Williams' lab or office. The RV is out of Williams' hands now, so they either plan to steal it during the auction or call it completely off. Either way, Williams would be surprised to see Morritz at the auction "when" he arrives. If they called it off, he doesn't expect to see him at all. If they planned it, surely he expected him earlier to give them more time to make the switch.

Possible dialog if they called it off...

Williams: What are you doing here? We called it off!
Morrtiz: I'm going through with the swtich.
Williams: The Bussotti's up next and people are everywhere back there.
Morritz: Then you had better cover for me.

"but he doesn't make the decision till the very last moment ... the moment he is about to get into the limo."

I think your right, he makes the final decision only the moment he tells the driver they must make one stop before the airport.

Wait.... Perhaps there is more meaning in the Olsberg scene now. Olsberg is complaining about the heavy traffic in the cab, he is running late. Maybe that scene is not for us to laugh at Olsberg, well not primarily. But because Morritz arrives at almost exactly the same time, the scene is to show us Morritz planned on arriving early, but his timing was affected by the traffic, which was out of his control. The driver evens tells him he might have to go around the block because of the parking and traffic situation. Was that just to get the limo on the other side of the street for the screeching tires finale, to establish how bad the traffic was, or both?

I forget the dialog when Morritz gets in the limo, doesn't it go something like,

Driver: Where to sir?
Morritz: The airport.
Driver: Which one?
Morritz: __________ He doesn't say Duvals here does he? I'm not familiar with Montreal.
Morritz: (About to get in the limo, with a pained look on his face) We have to make one stop first.

I wish I had kept it for a few more days. Whatever I have coming won't compare I know it.

"I'm going to name a kid after you ... I SWEAR TO GOD !!!! 'movielover35 D. DATonian' ... has a nice ring to it !"

That won't be necessary, Bob is a nice, simple name. :-)

reply

[deleted]

"Excellent point Bob."

Actually, my name isn't Robert. Other children can be so cruel. They say things like, "If you love movies so much why don't you marry them?" Then one of the more esoteric children might say, "Do you love the movie Triumph of the Will by Leni Riefenstahl? Huh, do you, do you? Your a Nazi!" I was merely thinking of the child's welfare.

With Bob, the worst you get is, "Bob's a snob!" Then later in life, "Bob's a knob!"

""What did you do check my mini-bar tab too?"."

Your right, Morritz was VERY defensive when questioned. Mr. X responds by saying, "Well we are paying for this.", in a calm fashion. (Or something very similar)

If memory serves, Morritz then looks down, sits down on the table, pauses, looks up at Leroux and says, "Yes!" with a smile. I previously took that to mean he was being overly dramatic about his good news, but your excellent cookie analogy makes me think the following is a better explanation.

When confronted about the expenditures, it is as if he has been caught with his hand in the cookie jar. I would characterize the confrontation as only a mild one, they are just CURIOUS as to the additional expenses, but Morritz, as we have seen him do before, over-reacts. He first gets defensive, then has to make a snap decision, he thinks about lying and looks down. Pathological liars can look you directly in the eye and lie, but most people feel a guilt and look away, even if for only a split second.

I really don't see the questioning of Morritz as outright suspicion of malfeasance by Duvals at this point. But if Morritz says an outright "No!", to Leroux's question, then it certainly would be prudent for Duvals to call in a second opinion.

10 minutes before the "Yes" scene.

Mr. X: Ah, Mme Leroux, please come in, sit down. I'd like to speak to you about some strange expenses coming from your Chinese government project.
Leroux: Let me see that list. You know, this might have something to do with that red violin. Morritz has been acting a little odd.
Mr. X: What do you mean?
Leroux: Well, the other day when Mr. Ruselsky was here, he didn't want him to play it, or even pick it up. He was acting weird, even by his standards.
Mr. X: (chuckling) Lets get him in here. (on intercom) Ms. Smith, will you see if Mr. Morritz is in the building and if he is, please have him to come to my office right away.

Cut to Morritz walking into the office five minutes later, having no idea why he has been called. Mr. X and Leroux haven't even contemplated that Morritz might be attempting to steal the violin, this is just a typical day at the office, with an air of excitement that they might have the find of the century.

"4) Now, he tells them it is NOT the red violin ???
5) They would have known he was lying."

Had Morritz said no, they wouldn't have KNOWN he was lying, but they very well could have reacted thusly:

Morritz: No, I'm afraid its not! I'm sorry about the extra expenses, you can take them out of my fee if you'd like.
Mr. X: That won't be necessary, but we would like to call in Doctor Fabrizzi from Rome, if you don't mind, just for his opinion. (This is professional courtesy to ask, if even if your going to do it anyway, much like when you "ask" your doctor if he minds if you get a second opinion. They always say no, even though I'm sure there is a level of insult.)

Morritz, with his ego, would be very angry to have "missed" the famed Bussotti and let Fabrizzi take the credit. He wants it all, the prestige of finding it, and the pleasure of owning it.

I still say the best course of action would be to have stalled, but this is after days of carefully pondering, not being forced to make a near-instant decision. But I will admit that had he stalled, its very possible that Leroux and Mr. X might have had the violin taken from the lab and stored with the Stradivarius, "just in case."

"Maybe he didn't want to run the risk of taking it and getting caught earlier because the tests from the University weren't in yet and for all he knew he might be taking a risk for nothing. This would also logically explain his impatience with the receptionist at the hotel ... he can't make a move till he gets the results and they did not deliver the envelope because they felt that he didn't want to be disturbed. Now that I think of it, wasn't it the next day that he was confronted by Duvals with the question of expenses?"

I concur, Morritz isn't going to risk this for anything but THE red violin. I got caught-up in the situation at the hotel desk and misunderstood the main significance of the report.

I was busy thinking how that type of situation happens every day around the world. The CEO says he doesn't want to be disturbed and then later finds out their biggest client called but the secretary only took a message. When he later finds out it cost them a huge order, he screams at the secretary, "You idiot! You should have known I didn't mean don't put our biggest customer through." This is why PA's to the bigwigs of the world can make huge money. They get paid to understand what the person in charge means, not what they actually say.

I took the elevator scene, because of the scene which follows, to mean the test confirmed blood in the violin, and he drops the papers and goes near-comatose in his room because he was contemplating the deeper meaning of the violin and life. I now think the real significance of the front desk/ elevator scene, was to show that whatever was in the report, it was the last bit of evidence he felt he needed to go through with the theft.

He is totally devastated in the elevator because he missed it, it was sitting there, waiting to be picked up and he walked right past it that morning. Imagine what he would be thinking. If only that damn maid had just gone away. If I had kept my cool and not picked up the phone. If I had just said, but alert me to any incoming calls, faxes or packages. If I had just checked the desk before I went to Duvals this morning. Why couldn't those idiots at the university have gotten off their lazy asses and gotten the results faster. Why didn't they use Fed Ex overnight?

Had any of those happened, he would have received the last piece of confirmation that morning, gone to Duvals knowing of the Red Violin, and made the switch. Because I remember the scene following the office to be Morritz at the hotel desk. As if he had just been sent home early, and within a few hours, discovered the results which had been waiting there all day.


I would like to change the subject-line of my post now from, "I think many of you missed the point of the film!", to "You all got the point of the film right the first time, and I interpolated my own Judeo-Christian value system into what is simply a non-linear heist film!"

Perhaps there is hope at the end. Morritz has stolen the "Holy Grail" of instruments. There is nothing more for him to obsess over, this is the pinnacle. By giving in to his demons, he then conquers them by giving the violin to his daughter. He may now move on with his life, his search for the lost violin has ended and he can focus on what truly is important in life, his family.

Post Script - Because the Bussotti has just been refurbished, it wouldn't need to be worked on by a luthier for decades under normal circumstances. I can only imagine Morritz getting caught if something out of the ordinary happens, such as a meeting between Ruselsky and the former Pope copy owner, or if Ruselsky were to damage it, perhaps by a fall.

He wouldn't trust it to just any luthier, but one who is used to working on 300-year-old Strads, and who might find the Bussotti in remarkably good condition, become suspicious, and order tests. At some point the copy's age would most likely be discovered although it could very likely be 200 years later.

P.P.S. - The last question I have is...Since it was the unusual expenses which unraveled the original plan, why didn't Morritz pay for them "off the books" as he did with the Pope copy, and have the results sent directly to him at his hotel as he did with the final report?

I'm drawing a blank trying to figure out why he wouldn't hide all, or most of his red violin expenses. I'm sure Leroux would expect to see at least one report of some kind on the violin. But he could have forged or altered that, changing a dating number from 300 years +_ 30 years, to 200 years +_ 20 years, making the now switched copy, just a nice violin to auction off. Maybe thats nit-picking and I'll just have to let that one go?


I'm tempted to buy this movie, rip it, and re-edit it back into linear order for re-watching and analysis.

reply

[deleted]

I've developed a new time line.

Morritz can't have arrived with a plan because he doesn't know about any red violin yet. The first time he sees it, he gets excited thinking about being the one to find it, not that he may be able to possess it.

He orders the standard tests plus some of the extra expenses and bills them to Duvals through the normal procedures because, a) he hasn't fallen under its spell completely yet, and b) even if he has, he would need the help of someone on the inside of Duvals, i.e. Williams, to make the switch anyway. He is working under a deadline and would need to start this process immediately and without being able to count on turning Williams.

During the inner-violin examination scene, if Williams refuses to cooperate and says, "I'm calling Leroux right now to tell her what we may have found.", any plan Morritz may have for the theft is instantly defunct.

It probably doesn't matter if the final report was billed to Duvals, or if all or none of the previous reports had been delivered to his room. The important factor is it was late arriving, made later by the miscommunication, and this delay disturbs his impromptu plan.

Leroux might have been his foil. Perhaps Morritz has never been questioned about his expenses before, or at least not until the end of the work, during some fee negotiation phase, hence his reaction in the office.

Morritz's odd behavior during the Ruselsky showing might have prompted the meeting between her and Mr. X, which ends with Mr. X desirous of an explanation from Morritz.

Leroux: Do you have a minute, can I talk to you about something?
Mr. X: Sure, what is it?
Leroux: It's about Mr. Morritz, he acted very strangely yesterday when Mr. Ruselsky was here.
Mr. X: In case you haven't noticed, he's kind of a strange guy, always afraid of forgetting his coat.
Leroux: This involved one the violins....the red violin.
Mr. X: The red violin you mentioned to me before?
Leroux: Yes! He practically went insane when Mr. Ruselsky picked it up. He didn't want him to play it.
Mr. X: Do you think, he thinks, its the one?
Leroux: What about his expenses, anything unusual?
Mr. X: Well now that you mention it, yes, there are a few things on here I was going to bring-up at the report meeting.
Leroux: (excited) I can't wait, maybe we've got it? Call him in, I saw him in the lab just a few minutes ago.

This would go along with the theme of Morritz causing his own problems, like with the hotel front desk. It was his action toward Ruselsky, involving the red violin, which raises Leroux's suspicion to the point where she instigates the investigation which throws off his time-table.

Of course now I have to change the plot and title of my sequel to:

The Red Violin II - Rage of Ruselsky

reply

Movielover35. Thankyou so much for such a passionate debate on such a passionate film. You really opened my eyes.
You, sir, (as us Brits woulds say) are a gentleman and a scholar!!!

reply

Sorry for breaking in your discussion, but i have to compliment you both 'cause is the best thread i've ever read.
Great movie!! not for shortsighted.
Greets and again, my respect

reply

[deleted]

1. AGREED MORITZ IS NOT STEALING

Movielover35 said:

"The point of the movie, which the redeemed anti-hero Morritz discovers through his character-arc near end the end, is people and relationships are what we should value most highly. . . . Morritz isn't stealing the Red Violin at the end of the movie!?"

Agreed; else why his sleepless night before the day of the aution?

2. DIRECTOR SUGGESTS VIOLIN ENDS UP WIHT "THE MASTER AGAIN" (SPOILER?)

I recently posted the following from the director:

"We had to deal with a number of owners, therefore a fragmented episodic structure and you're trying to find all the possible ways to tie them together. So we have the story first with the unborn child, then of the child, then of the young adult, then the story of political awakening and social consciousness and maturity, and then we go back to the age of _the master_ again, which loops back to the creator again. So in the writing, that was a constant guide, focusing on that theme progression."

If I am reading the director correctly, I do not see Moritz as either a master or a creator (nor his daughter). I believe the master/creator is Ruselsky (and so he cycle continues). While Moritz has "grown" and is now relazed and safe in the back seat of the cab.

Footnote: Yes, his words to his daughter abotu bringing something very special COULD refer to the copy. It is not a bad violin, and in and of itself has quite a history. In fact, ANY violin would do -- IF one sees Moritz as growing in this movie and learning that Possessions are not the answer, but Passions are!

reply

[deleted]


Qs:

1. What was your "misinterpretation" (two posts up, on Sept 29)? (After re-reading this thread three times, I am not 100% sure.)

2. How sure are wer that ANYTHING special has to happen to the violin at this stage of its life? (After all, it sat on a shelf in China for a very long time.)

3. I can't find it (and can't remember)... What was the final tarot card message?

4. Can anyone locate an accurate, legal script?

Thanks all (for good reading),

Scott V.

reply

[deleted]

Thank you for this great discussion. It helped me to tie up some questions about the film. I agree with most everything in movielover's interpretation. One minor correction I would make is the dating of Pope's copy. Movielover interprets it to be about 1880 based on the fact that several gypsies are shown playing the violin reflecting five generations or 200 years. A generation is usually calculated as 20-25 years, not a full lifespan, but the difference of years between a parent and child. None of the gypsy violinists would not have played that violin from birth to death. I think it is more useful to note the styles of clothing and culture in the Pope sequence which dates Pope to the late 1700s (early 1800s at the latest). For me, the biggest problem as far as the timeline is the timing from the violin's acquisition by Pope's servant to its purchase by the woman in the Chinese shop. The servant has aged a great deal by the time he sells the violin to the shop owner then ages many decades by the time he sells the violin to the woman, which, based on clothing styles, etc. must be in the 1930s or 1940s. That is about one century between those two men who were each mature adults at the time they acquired the violin.

I think the film would have benefited from the inclusion of time stamps at the beginning of each sequence to aid the understanding and appreciation of the violin's long story.

reply

CORRECTION- That was not Ming's mother who possessed the violin. His father was a comrade of hers. He wanted it because he heard her play it, and fell under its spell.

reply

wonderful wonderful posts guys. When it finished I turned to my girlfriend and had the slight impression or maybe hope that samuel had the original in his possession but was moved by the blood report to swap them back. I just think that was it. BUT the one thing I think I can say with total confidence is the fact that when the german/austrian plays the red violin before the auction. IT IS BEAUTIFUL. SO BEAUTIFUL you can hear it and samuel's eyes water over cause it is so beautiful. The german deffo knows this is the red violin but also wants it cheap so pretends its crap.

reply

Excellent point(s). That of Jackson's eyes watering over. That the Masater claims it was crap, trying to downplay it's value. PARADOX!

This movie is about Paradox. MAJOR POINT: Mortiz knows its worth and gives it up.

QUESTION: What is Jackson so upset about the night before the auction? That he has stolen the violin and is debating whether he should keep it, or that he WANTS to steal it and is debating whether he should, or something else?

Scott V.

PS I can imagine Jackson seeing that the old Master "deserves" it and let's him have it; that he wants his daughter to start afresh -- with music, not necessarily with THE Red Violin.


reply

Excellent analysis, movielover. Kudos to Dato too!

reply

I think the tag with the lot number 72 is a very significant clue, which must be factored into the speculation regarding whether Charles Morritz ended up with the real red violin or with the Pope copy.

This tag with 72 was found by Evan Williams out in the main foyer by the coat room, and not in the secure back room where if should have been, if it had fallen off the red violin before it was placed on the display stand that went into the salesroom.

Because the tag with 72 was found in the main foyer, then it was probably still attached to the red violin that Charles Morritz had taken from the secure back room, until he arrived in the main foyer, where it fell off the violin or he purposely discarded it, and where Evan Williams found it.

However, rather than being reassured upon retrieving the tag with 72 out in a public space, Madame Leroux should have realized that the wrong location for the tag with 72 served as proof that the red violin (and the tag) had been taken from the secure back room.

I want to thank all those for the most enjoyable exchange of educated viewpoint, presented with courtesy and understanding, that I have had the pleasure of reading on ImdB

reply

I agree, this is a great thread which I have been reading here.. :)

I agree, I didn't like Ruzelsky's character at all, and I think it was a kind of pre-buy when he tried the violin, if he fell under the spell, he should have bought it immediately.

I also loved the comment why Jackson was chosen for the part..
He was kinda obsessed with the violin, a slave of the violin, but when he read about the blood, he not only realized that it was the original, but later in his room , he was rethinking his life (family etc, possible purpose of Bussotti)...

Okay, more thoughts to come later..

I saw a Hungarian, dubbed version of the film, so I may have missed some English expressions... I am curious , the French words of Poussin weren't subtitled in the English version either ?

reply

the whole point is that samuel's character takes the real violin. the story of the violin is that it constantly moves on, across countries and time, so it would make no sense to end the movie by giving it back to someone who had ancestral connections with it. and ryselsky is not a likeable character so it's not very probable that he should have gotten it at the end. AND it was made for a child at the start, so it fits perfectly when morritz is going to give it to his daughter.

reply

This is a fascinating analysis! Well done! I'm always amazed when I talk to people who liked this movie, but didn't make the connection between the tarot card reading and the violin's life. That's what provided the structure and magic of the movie for me.

I think you may have overstated the importance of Cesca's card 2 as an enduring curse, however your analysis is well thought out. I think the other cards have equal importance, though card 3 best describes the lustiness of it's time with Pope, and card 4 describes the cultural revolution in China.

I like your interpretation that Morritz did NOT steal the violin. The assumption that he stole it always soured the ending for me. Though I reconciled the theft with the idea that it would have a home with an innocent young girl. I think that would have pleased Anna Bussotti.

reply

[deleted]

Oh for the love of....look, I don't mean to be asinine about it but the red violin only wanted to be in the hands of a child as she had died in childbirth and never knew the joy of motherhood, as well as it was made for a child to begin with...it's only happy home would be with a child....SO S.L.J. took the real violin and gave to a child as the others only wanted it for selfish reasons.
Even the director hints at the "which violin" red herring but I think it is rather obvious when you look at the story as a whole. It's not a "curse", it's simply a "life" lived by other means.

reply

Chou Yuan didn't covet the violin as witnessed by all of the instruments he had. He wasn't coveting any of them. He was protecting them. He was preserving them from destruction.

As for Ruselsky, he knew the Red Violin. If not the moment he saw it then certainly the moment he began to play. He said nothing special the same way you don't show any interest at a flea market or antique store when you see a priceless object that you really want but don't want the price to go up.

Ruselsky covets the violin more than anyone at that auction. Many want it for history or collections or sentimental reasons. Ruselsky simply wants to possess it. Olsberg didn't want it for himself but for the foundation. To Ming it was only a family heirloom and memory of his Mother; he couldn't play it.

As for Moritz, for whatever reason he does not steal it but returns the original and takes his copy. For his daughter, still a student, it is certainly good enough. And if he does finally figure out the curse of the violin, he knows that taking it and giving it to his daughter will either mean her death or his discovery and ruin or both.

Oh, and I put Pope in earlier than 1880s. More like 1820-40.

I don't mind the casting of Jackson as Mortiz at all. I haven't seen any of his action stuff that I recall. And they originally wanted Morgan Freeman, so Jackson is a credible next in line casting decision.

reply

[deleted]

[deleted]

EXCELLENT POSTS! (and follow-ups)

MovieLover35, I agree with your analyses and suppositions (and your conjected off-movie dialog).

What's with all the deleted posts? It's like listening to a cell phone conversation on the train when you're straining to hear the whole thing.

-----------

[quote]"...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped."

reply