That the super wealthy and powerful have a secret society with bizarre sex parties.
I have reached middle age and I can attest that my sex drive is not the same as it was when I was 19.
Orgies seem like well...a good deal of work to me. Also to be honest a little skeevy. Watching two people do it live is also a big turn off.
The Uber wealthy in this movie are decades older than me, they must tire out just by watching.
I agree. Plus, it's all evil!
Why?????
I like Kubrick, but am not a expert on him.
I think I remember reading that he wanted to do a movie about secret societies.
Like The Shining (1980) he want to do one featuring ESP.
Yes ok, but this movie is not it.
I am an expert on Kubrick. He is a moralist, and an obvious one at that.
He assumes that sex is evil just 'couse, judging from his moralist pedestal, and everything else falls into place.
His protagonist in this movie never comes to face his own prejudices, and neither does the movie: the Dr. is good, the others are evil.
So he wanted to do a movie on secret societies. What's so secret about this one other than they want to be secretive? Were the "victims" kept against their will or forced into stuff they didn't want to?
They were stupidly secret like a kid's secret base. It seems to me these orgies were so organized and legal and in the open that they could have released a receipt after the party, with compensation and gratuities etc.
The scene with Zeigler implied there was far more going on than just orgies. I don't think Kubrick was a prude considering he had plenty of nudity in his films.
shareI didn't say he was a prude. He was not a prude, he liked to push it quite a bit.
He was a moralist.
I don't remember Ziegler implying more, if anything he belittled it saying what I said, that they got their brains fucked and then were sent home.
What's wrong with that, unless you're a moralist?
At first, he shrugged the whole thing off about how it was just a big sex party but William kept pressing as he knew it was obviously more than that since there was a big cover up with people turning up dead. Zeigler changed his tune and started warning him by saying something along the lines of "you have no idea who these people are or what they do" and added that William wouldn't sleep so well at night if he knew all their secrets. There was a very strong implication other things were happening and William just caught a glimpse of it.
shareYes but let's see the facts:
these are "important" people. They were having a (super boring) orgy.
Society doesn't look at that sort of parties with a keen eye, so they want to keep it private.
Now Dr. Bill could blow their cover.
Of course a bully asshole like Ziegler will threaten him to shut up or else. What else can he do? Doesn't mean he is really a dangerous man able to carry on those threats.
I don't think there's any other implication here, just a bunch of rich losers trying to keep their "secret" secret.
Ok, in real life if you look at Epstein and his "suicide", of course the problem there was not only the high profile of his "friends", but chiefly the criminal nature of the encounters.
But in EWS there was no little girl getting fucked (except for Leelee Sobieski, but she was not at the castle), so I doubt there was anything criminal there.
There probably was an accidental overdose involving one woman, but we don't know if she died at the party or in her house or what.
We just know Ziegler doesn't want the whole organization to be dragged in a scandal but Dr. Bill's curiosity/self guilt.
Ziegler does play everything off as a coincidence, that the whole sacrifice bit was just an act to scare him off, and that no one died. William doesn't seem to believe it and that's when Ziegler changes his tune and the threats start happening such as the society apparently sneaking into his house to leave the mask. It is left to the audience as to whether or not these people are truly dangerous but Kubrick does not like easy answers. I'm more inclined to think there was some sort of secret cult-like activity going on behind the scenes.
shareThe mask was left on his bed by Alice, not the rich fuckers.
She finds it and puts it there, without knowing what it's about.
I agree, it's left to the audience to decide if they are dangerous or not.
I'm more inclined to think they are a bunch of old limp dicks that need all the role play BS to get it up for half a minute.
They don't look dangerous at all, and if they were supposed to be, I need at least some really nasty deed from them to get the idea they are bad people, not a Venice carnival inspired orgy with hot and willing participants. That's just nice hospitality in my book!
We don’t know that Alice left the mask on the bed. It’s never said outright.
As for proof they did something bad, this isn’t a straight forward movie. They either killed people or they didn’t. We’re not meant to know for sure.
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It's not about pleasure at that point. It's about having power and control over people, as well as the prestige of getting to be involved in something exclusive that lesser people can't.
shareBingo.
shareThat is a good point.
I never really understood that aspect of human nature either, which is probably why I found the premise absurd.
I don't interpret it like that. The stoners and the conspiracy theorists interpret it like that.
I think the sex party is a reference to the general idea of patriarchy and capitalism. It was all about the red High Priest giving out orders.
Back in ancient and traditional times, the elders would choose sexual partners for their offspring. Pre-arranged marriages. That's kinda what I really see with the sex party. The rich controlling sex and the outcome of it. I think it's close to the shopkeeper selling his daughter out to those men.
The High Priest is in control of the women during the ritual. In traditional ways of thinking, women have to submit to higher authority. In Bill's case, this is what he wants, since his wife didn't submit to his authority. I see the bizarre sex party as a dream of Bill's, figuratively.
I get the simbolysm, but literally it's what the OP describes: a bunch of middle aged to old fools with a half sized limp dick trying to behave like porn studs.
It's quite outlandish and pathetic as a premise. I wish they explained they had a magic potion or something, because in reality, at that age, I would behave like the OP states.
Who's got that much time, libido, need to put up with all that shit?
We don´t know how often these parties happen, not to mention all the drugs they are taking.
shareBah, if you looked at Pollack or that creep dancing with Kidman, they are all talk and no game come on...you can drug them like a race horse, they wouldn't last more than 30 minutes with a semi hard dick, and they would still risk a heart attack!
shareFirst of all the movie is based on Arthur Schnitzler's Novel "Traumnovelle" from 1925, so Kubrick did not invent or imagine, this concept is much older. Also these pictures from 1972 Rothschild Masked Ball (which took place in the same castle that eyes wide shut was shot in, the Rothschild mansion) prove these things have and still happen: https://vigilantcitizen.com/latestnews/pictures-rothschild-family/
shareI am not arguing that they don't happen, there probably is a subset of rich people who are the 'orgy type'.
I will place any bet anytime, anywhere that the vast majority of the rich and powerful( 95+%)are not the 'orgy type'. The movie strongly implies that they are.
I remember an old Happy Days episode where Richie caught his dad at a strip club. He got all freaked out by it. At the end Richie confronted his dad about it. Mr Cunningham explained that he was dragged there by someone else to close a business deal.
I can attest that strip clubs are just not as appealing to a middle-aged man as opposed to a 25 year old. The thought of Mr. Cunningham at a orgy is pretty laughable.
SPOILERS!!! SPOILERS!!! SPOILERS!!!
You missed the point.
Why did Bill even go there? Why does Victor Ziegler/Red Cloak, the cult leader, even throw an orgy party after his own? The movie doesn't really have much of a story except how one rich NY couple treat their sexuality with each other. Most of the time, these sexual fantasies are not mentioned and goes away. This one is mentioned and it's becomes all in Bill's head. He has a dream and now it won't go away like the symbolic mask he sees on his pillow.
You didn't buy the premise because you are intelligent and the premise makes no sense.
shareThe first half of the movie intrigued me because it had a good build up of mystery and Tom Cruise's character is skillfully driven into a frenzied obsession of infiltrating a forbidden event, but after he gets in the payoff was somewhat overplayed, and the intentionally vague reveal at the end with the mask on his bed didn't resolve much in terms of his sexual frustration with wife.
share