How was he recognized?


This part never made any sense to me, how was he recognized by the other guests at the party?

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Zeigler explained it in the movie. Not knowing second password, rental receipt in his coat, etc.

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the man and woman at the top of the balcony seemed to have recognized him, how could they have known?

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I think that this is a deliberate mystery. Either they know it's Bill (not sure how) or they could think it's some orgy patron they know who has worn the exact same mask at a prior orgy.

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Or perhaps the cult members are familiar with the costumes enough to recognize that a newcomer was in their midst by not being familiar with Bill's.






http://www.imdb.com/list/_OaGg-zdQKo/

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I had a theory in my head that Nick was given the password of "fidelio" to enter the party identified as the piano player, and that other guests were likely given a different password to enter the party as guests. Can't remember what gave me this notion though...

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Or perhaps the cult members are familiar with the costumes enough to recognize that a newcomer was in their midst by not being familiar with Bill's.

Precisely,not to mention that Bill came a while after the ceremony had already started, and stood apart from the crowd, which made him conspicuous

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I always wondered if the man in that mask wasn't Zeigler himself.

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Some people at the party saw Cruise's character without a mask, and he was also the only one who arrived by taxi. If I am correct, they also found some Dr. Harford's stuff from his jacket that exposed him or something.

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They never saw him without the mask before he was discovered.

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They saw him at the door without his mask.

As I've tried to make people here realize in the past, to no avail, Bill gave himself away with the word "Fidelio". Where did he get it? From the piano player -- the hired help. He entered with the staff password, through the guest entrance.

Straight off, that's two giant mistakes. The guards aren't authorized to stop anyone with a password, but they surely notified people that this strange thing occurred. From the moment he entered, Bill was on their radar.

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Interesting point but the people in the balcony did not see him without a mask.

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What makes you think they weren't signaled? Bills jig was up when he came in -> he was being observed while he explored -> the hosts were informed of his infiltration. Its logical for me to follow that reasoning to some tip off: an underling giving them a sign indicating 'this is the one '

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You are just making up a parallel story, film doesn't work that way.

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OK. I will forget it if you show me how the movie says none of that happened. Because there's plenty of circumstantial evidence to back my theories up.

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ThE fidelio theory makes sense but I am specifically talking about the couple at the balcony that recognize him. There is nothing in the film or that particular scene that implies or suggests they were alerted about his identity.

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True, and maybe I'm straying from the spirit of EWS by seeking a logical, prosaic explanation.

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On a practical level:

He was seen on camera outside the gates.
Arrived by taxi (taxi still waiting outside).
Rental receipt.
Once they got the name (as soon as he entered) Bill's connection with Ziegler, Mandy and Nick would be exposed.


On a thematic level:

He doesn't 'belong'. The mental issue of his repression/anxiety is producing dual desires to be exposed as well as remain secretive. Being exposed at Somerton thematically is tied to many other moments in the film (Alice's confession, the frat boys, Ziegler/Mandy, Domino etc). It's an issue of being exposed or saving face.




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It's ok, it's called storytelling, if you introduce a plot point you are supposed to resolve it. Kubrick didn't do that, hence why his films are unbearable and entirely forgotten about by most people outside of this insufferable clique.

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It's ok. It's called perception. Some people don't have it.


There's Kubrick and Beethoven, and there is Bieber and Bay.


You're a Bieber and Bay person.



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Not at all, in all my years watching films, true films mind you, I've come to realize that Kubrick belongs to the Bieber and Bay crowd that fashions themselves to be intelligent. But they truly are not.

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Perhaps if your grammar was correct, you would be perceived as intelligent yourself and maybe taken a bit more seriously.

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fuck off.

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Classy!

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Yeah right, Kubricks films are forgotten. Unlike your favourite, Cleopatra. Now that is a classic that's still on every ones mind, LMAO. Retard alert!

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"LMAO. Retard alert!"

Or a troll... Or a retarded troll.

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Then why the fuck do you keep pressing the issue? You clearly despise Kubrick movies and his fans. No explanation would be good for you. Fucking weirdo.

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ThE fidelio theory makes sense but I am specifically talking about the couple at the balcony that recognize him.

There is nothing that irrefutably implies that they recognized who he was, rather they took notice of him because he stood out. And one tested him with a simple nod as if it were some type cryptic sign of recognition among members, a nice little ruse which Bill fell for when he nodded back. From then on they were watching him closely...My theory.

But a better question, is how the hell did Mandy recognize him??

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What is interesting is that there are two of the blank masked men (one on the balcony, one below during that scene) - one of them 'offers' a woman (that sounds quite like Domino) to Bill..



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Your theory seems far fetched. The plot point is there, they recognized him. I didn't put it there, glorified hack Kubrick did.

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Yes, Kubrick put it there. And Hack You can't figure out why.

awww



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Well, if Kubrick said they did...otherwise, just think, in such a lurid setting where everyone wears a mask to hide their identity, nodding at someone as if you know who they are would be a big faux pas!

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I doubt it's a Kubrick error. Like him or not, he meticulously plotted out every scene of every movie. If you see the documentary "Kubrick's Boxes," you will see just how much research and planning went into every nuance. Also, interviews with anyone who worked with him.

Given that, and some of the insightful answers above, here's my theory:

1. I agree with others that "Fidelio" was not the "insider" password. Only one, or maybe a handful, of the "help" had it, and they were all accounted for. So, they knew to check his pockets.

2. He arrived at the gate, and door, without mask. That was probably a huge tipoff. Now, Ziegler did know a bunch of the mucky-mucks who were also members, but then, he was no doubt invited to join.

3. "The Nod from the balcony:" It could've been just a reassurance to an obviously new member. Or, word could've quickly gone out via whispers who the interloper was. I think it was the former, and that it was Ziegler and his lady for the evening. They probably discussed the problem of Bill intruding and knew what was to happen.

4. "Nod," cont'd: Another reason for it could've been: "We know you're not one of us, watch what we do about it." Bill's mask was bought at a costume shop. The others all had a design theme. How do I know? Because in the credits, the designer was of "Venetian masks," and the Trivia section shows Kubrick selected them from a previous production about a ball in Venice. Bill's mask, however, was designed for this movie, and modeled after Ryan O'Neal's face. So, maybe the couple on the balcony thought they recognized Ryan O'Neal! (kidding)

5. "Nod," cont'd: As a filmmaker, Kubrick might also have been showing us that Bill had no idea how to respond to any of this; how far out of his element he was. He had the twin feelings of fear of being recognized, vs how to respond to a possible signal among members. Thus, putting US off guard.

5. Mandy's "redemption" of Bill: I believe Ziegler that the whole thing was staged. She was substituted, remember, as his consort, then Bill was removed before anything could happen. Now whether she was drugged on purpose, or not, I don't know. But I suspect she was, in fact, an addict. As a former beauty queen, she had, in a way, sunk very low to be a consort for hire at these parties, and for the likes of Ziegler. So depression and dependence could have taken their toll.

In any case, I doubt Bill's recognition is any lapse on Kubrick's part. It may not even be material, just something to set a tone of nervousness on our part.

The important thing was, the mucky-mucks recognized him as an intruder, quickly found out who he was, and wanted to throw a scare into him, which they did.

Ziegler, probably under orders, also had him followed to ensure he didn't cause any damage.

Same with Nick, who probably loathed the moment he trusted Bill with the password.

I wondered what they did with/to the cab driver to ensure his silence.

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When he went to rent the costume he said he was the doctor of someone. Perhaps that person also happened to be in these sort of rituals (and that would explain the misterious ways the russian speaks to Bill). I think that maybe the russian gave him the mask that this person had previously used before moving to chicago. So the people on the second floor that looked at him perhaps thought that he was that person, but if they also happened to know he moved to Chicago they immediatly realized it was not him so it had to be someone else...I know my theory lacks substance but perhaps someone can elaborate someone with it...

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those explanations are too vague.

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The answer is in the title of Schnitzler's original work "Dream novel". The events are not to be taken literally - dreams was the central theme of his work and you have to consider that he was a doctor and a close friend of Freud.

This is how the novel is described in Publishers Weekly

Schnitzler's characters ultimately return from these sleeping and waking "dreams,"

Here Scorsese explains directly how and why Kubrick took that idea and put it into the film

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsPYzQKztns



(don't worry, I'm not stalking you)

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Interesting idea listed above about the previous owner of the costume shop--the fact that perhaps he attended these rituals and used the same mask as Bill.

The type of mask Bill wears might also have revealed his identity. His mask is essentially a double-mask. By that I mean, it is a full mask that covers his entire face, yet there is also a second mask on top of it that covers his eyes and the bridge of his nose. So this double-mask might symbolize Bill's presence at the ritual. He is masking his identity twice, (lowly doctor pretending to be someone rich and powerful, who then wears the requisite mask for the ritual). I believe the masked woman also wears a similar 'double-mask' as well, except it features an added headdress. So perhaps she recognizes Bill as a fellow imposter because they are both wearing double-masks.

Also, about the nod--it is important to note that beside the nodding character is a smaller figure, clearly a woman, judging by her petite physique. This woman has a sad mask with a teardrop. This might indicate that the nodding figure and his 'wife', are Carl and Marion. The teardrop indicating her sadness trapped in a relationship with a man she no longer loves.

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I'm not sure how that relates to my post since I simply suggest that he was recognized because he (Bill) was the one who made it all up in his head just like in the novel on which the film is based "Dream novel".

If it's all in his mind, then everyone at the party will know who he is - mask or no mask.

But if you wanna find a possible rat, then try having a look at Ziegler when he walks in a circle around the red pool table while intimidating bill. Compare that to the ritual scene where the leader walks around in a circle wearing a red cape.




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He arrived in a cab and walked into the foyer without a mask on. He also handed his coat over with a receipt from Rainbow Fashions with his name on it.

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If you think of the orgy as a thematic reviewing of the first party at Ziegler house, albeit one stripped of its facade to reveal the truth about the guests, then it makes sense that Bill would be recognized and acknowledged by, I presume, Ziegler and his wife: they are his hosts after all.

"...if only you could see what I've seen with your eyes!" Roy Batty

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Good point meemee, but Ziegler is also a guest at the second one - taking a step up the social ladder just as Bill was at Ziegler's.

Plus, Nick (Bill actually) made Victor look like an *beep*



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Really, I think whether or not Ziegler is a host or a guest at these functions is irrelevant. He is Bill's sponsor or patron...the only one among the so-called elites who recognizes Bill, literally and metaphorically. You recall Bill telling Alice he doesn't know a soul at the first party.

The two parties are really only one party, and the party is really a metaphor for society, or the class system, the upper reaches of which have only one person who Bill knows who likewise knows Bill.

I have no doubt that Ziegler is not at the tippity-top of the social strata...there's always another rung to climb.

But I think the real purpose of Ziegler pointing out that Nick, and by extension Bill, made him look like an ____, is to merely serve as a mirror to the earlier exchange between them regarding Mandy's illness. That Bill, or whoever that may be privy to Zieglers embarrassments, has the potential to make Ziegler look like an ___. That these things must be kept "...just between us." The second exchange is the same as the first. But like the second party is merely the first stripped of all pretentious, so goes this second exchange. These things must be kept "...just between us...or else."

"...if only you could see what I've seen with your eyes!" Roy Batty

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I agree with most of that. Notice that Milich's store is like a connection point between the two parties, as far as mise-en-scene goes.

So the point being that the veil of the upper class is basically a facade that actually facilitates their nihilistic hedonism. The whole illusion survives because of the envy of the lower class, proping it up ala sevant and master. Willing servant, thus one of the moments that was censored originally with the servant on all fours and the party goers (prostitutes?) banging on his back. Servant with a black mask.

Kubrick is also mirroing this in an uncanny way via the audiences expectations of seeing Nicole and Tom naked and having sex. It's funny that so many people come away from this disappointed, not realising they are mirroring Bill's sexual frustrations and voyueristic experience.


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I remember one of the things that struck me about the film upon initial viewing was the way people kept repeating themselves, or repeating what was said to them, e.g., Domino says, "What do you want to do?" and Bill replies, "What do I want to do? Hmmm." Or Red Cloak says, "Remove your clothing!" and Bill answers, "Remove my clothing??"

That led me to see what else was repeating, visually, thematically, etc. and I saw that the entire film was one story told twice...one version all lights and happiness, the other all dark and creepy. Probably neither version is "true"...things are really somewhere in the middle for the Dr. Bills of the world.

There are perhaps not really these strange, ritualistic orgies of debauched flesh and unbridled greed going on, but neither are the super wealthy your friends. Chances are coming into contact with such people leads to unhappiness, and your best defense against abuse is to be as honest and open with your real friends - with yourself - as you can.

"...if only you could see what I've seen with your eyes!" Roy Batty

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It is very much a contemplation on the relationship between fulfillment and wealth, and how relationships (sexual, non sexual) factor into various motivations. It does very much advocate honesty, as you suggest, and employs Ziegler as a kind of paradox to Bill: the happy go lucky liar and maybe murderer. A symbol of the New York/U.S/World elite that clearly disgusted Kubrick. And then Kubrick looked at the layers of envy and emulation, ultimately coming around to the audience with a challenge by way of the film's title.

Kubrick's most dense and satisfying film, after initially appearing to be the opposite for most people upon first viewing. Multiple viewings are required.

The plot cannot be untangled from the themes and subtext and even the form itself, so people looking for surface level narrative answers won't be satisfied - you have to incorporate film language into your understanding of the film, or you will be as lost as Bill, trapped behind bars, looking into mirrors..





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It is very much a contemplation on the relationship between fulfillment and wealth, and how relationships (sexual, non sexual) factor into various motivations.

Can you elaborate on this?

"...if only you could see what I've seen with your eyes!" Roy Batty

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Alice, Domino, Sally, Marion, Lolita and Mandy. The relationship between those characters and all the men in the fim. I'll leave it at that for now. A. Because we are way off topic and B. It's been covered in other threads.

Suffice to say: it is about service.




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I'm going to start a new thread, then.



"...if only you could see what I've seen with your eyes!" Roy Batty

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I thought 1) Fidelio was just the password for the piano player and 2)Everybody knew everybody from their masks, they were all different just like faces so they saw that new one and went bonkers

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the two on the balcony saw that he was odd..
he arrived late, remember?

Bill probably didn't do the proper head bow thingy either. the hooker noticed he had a cheap cape, and cheap mask so she called him out immediately.

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Here's my two guesses:

When he showed up at the front door without his mask on. It's probably a rule to remain masked, to maintain secrecy, at all times.

Secondly, he stood in a awkward placement and showed up late to the ceremony, which was also probably a dead giveaway.

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Well, while those might have made them suspicious, I don't think they all caught on immediately. It must take some time for the room to figure it out, or else Bill would have been either refused entry or stopped before he saw anything, or else he would have suffered consequences faster.

The guards don't seem to care that he doesn't have his mask on; if that was a hard rule, they would have stopped him. The awkward placement might not have even been noticed.

Zielger points out his cab v. limo thing. I think an amalgamation of "clues" led to the cult guys getting suspicious. After they asked around, they decided to do what they did.

There is another option, though, and it is as intriguing as it is sinister. They might have planned it out. Whether they're messing with Bill for kinky reasons, or testing him to see if he ought to be allowed to join, it's hard to say, but maybe the repeated warnings were part of the game?

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