MovieChat Forums > Dogma (1999) Discussion > What happened to Loki?

What happened to Loki?

posted 10 years ago by izzyshepp101
13 replies | jump to latest

Bartleby killed him before he was able to walk through the archway. So that would mean he died a sinner and would be vanquished to hell. But what confuses me is that Bartlbey was forgiven by God so he made it to heaven even though he did much worse things than Loki. Loki repented and felt sorry for what was done. He only killed bad people. Bartleby murdered just for the sake of killing and letting out all of his anger.

So my question is what happened to Loki? Did God let him back into heaven even though though he died before he got the opportunity to have his sins forgiven?

[–] shootthekitty 10 years ago

Well, we don't knoW Bartleby went to Heaven, but Loki might have since he did try to stop Bartleby

That awkward moment when you think someone's signature is apart of the post.

[–] SpiltPersonality 9 years ago

Well, you get a clean slate by believing that Jesus is your saviour and died for your sins. Considering that Loki was 100% certain of who Jesus was, I'm pretty sure he'd be on the 'He's my saviour' side. We don't know of course, but if I was in that situation I know where I'd be rolling my dice.

So, Loki will go to Heaven.

We don't know what happened to Bartleby. I think his 'Thank You' at the end was destruction, however my same point could be made... Bartleby also knew for certain who Jesus was, and so he would also go to Heaven.

That does pose the question of what happens with regard to undoing of creation and all that, but by the same token we know that the ANGELS Loki and Bartleby would be unable to return to Heaven... perhaps a loophole as big as the Plenary Indulgence would allow the humans Loki and Bartleby in.



SpiltPersonality

[–] puschit-1 9 years ago

Well, can Jesus "be your saviour" if you are an angel!?

In the end, god is almighty, right? S/he should be able to do whatever hir pleases and if that is forgiving Loki, then forgiving Loki that is! We actually don't know if the world would end if Bartelby had been able to complete his mission, that's pure speculation, much like everything else. Remember Loki's and Bartelby's talk when Loki refused to go?

Bartleby: If we cut off our wings, transubstantiate to complete human form, we become mortal. If we die with clean souls, there's no way they can keep us out. We won't be angels anymore, but at least we get to go home.

Loki: Who sent the paper?

Bartleby: Who cares who sent the paper? All that matters is that after all these years, we found a loophole! They can't keep us out anymore! And once we get back in, I'm sure they'll just forgive and forget.

Loki: But this thing is, this is... this is... this is church law. It's not divine mandate. Catholic Church laws are fallible because they're created by man.

Bartleby: One of the last sacred promises imparted to Peter, the first Pope, by the Son of God before He left was... "Whatever you hold true on earth..."

Loki: "I'll hold true in heaven."

Bartleby: It's dogmatic law. The Catholic Church says it's so, God must adhere, this thing has a papal sanction...

So it all boils downs to last sentence. Is the catholic church really able to command god? Well, that would certainly explain the troubles we are in ;) but it doesn't make much sense in general. The only way I see this working would be that catholic laws apply while god is absent (as s/he was while trapped in that old man's body) but even that is a stretch.

For that matter, considering how difficult and almost impossible it is to phrase laws in a way that it can't be misinterpreted I'd say there are no ironclad rules at all. Humans just try to squeeze everything into rules so their little minds know what to do.

[–] SpiltPersonality 9 years ago

Good post.

I'm rather amazed that this has gone for 3 posts and remained civil.

Surely THAT's a sign of the divine? :)

[–] xbxoxy 8 years ago

He cant go to heaven, thats part if the whole plot... so the only two options are hell or just banished from existence

[–] cockroachcharlie 8 years ago

Only to a point. They would be proving God wrong if they went through the arch. There is nothing in this film that says God can't simply change His mind or alter the deal based on the circumstances of their mortal deaths. So long as nobody else does so, all is kosher. God's word is still law.

Part of Azraels plan was to keep God comatose. It's my opinion that this served two purposes. 1: God couldn't stop him. 2: God couldn't change the agreement before the end of existence.

[–] xbxoxy 8 years ago

i guess you are right... if god forbid them, they could return to heaven

[–] gingerpeach0614 10 years ago

This purely my supposition but I've always thought they both went to hell. God forgave Bartleby but his and Loki's sins were irredeemable. Like I said, that's purely supposition on my part.

[–] carbondate 9 years ago

I do think it would be within God's power to simply erase their souls from existence rather than sending them to Hell, which would be more merciful.

However, they had both done some really bad stuff along the way, so Hell is a real option. Then again, if She were to simply forgive them Herself rather than having them forgiven under Church law, then it's not a case of God being "proven wrong", but simply changing Her mind. But the movie doesn't really make clear what their ultimate destination was. Maybe purgatory. Who knows?

[–] MartyAckermansDawg 9 years ago

Well, they were sinners and fallen angels, so on the one hand maybe they both went to The Pit. On the other hand, Metatron mentioned that even after the world ends Bartleby and Loki will have to sit outside the Gates of Heaven for all eternity as part of their punishment.

So my guess is that those two assbutts are gonna have to chill outside the Pearly Gates forever, much sooner. Not Heaven, but not Hell either. And fortunately for them at least they won't be in Wisconsin or New Jersey either.

[–] noone1647 8 years ago

I assumed they both went to hell. Which, according to the movie, was worse than being trapped on earth/forced to sit outside heaven's gate for eternity.

I wonder what happened to Azrael. He wasn't human. Did all it take to end his existence was to be killed with a "blessed" object? Or did "killing" him just send him back to hell where they figured out what he was up to and kept him there?

[–] hansenmv2002 8 years ago

Curious the maybe what if *beep* --- we all know it's a movie - not hard science - presume one can invent any final scenario you want - unless your kevin smith - then maybe you can have some final comment.

House: I have been on a date before.
Wilson: Not since disco died.

[–] stevedorsett 8 years ago

Both Angels were made mortal and were killed before passing through the arch. Therefore they died with mortal sins on their soul, ergo they went to Hell.