MovieChat Forums > Bravo Two Zero (1999) Discussion > the lies of the men who call themselves ...

the lies of the men who call themselves 'Any McNab' and 'Chris Ryan'


For a while I believed what was written in McNab's account of Bravo Two Zero. I found it to be an amazingly brave and courageous story. Having recently read 'The Real Bravo Two Zero' by Former SAS man and Arabic Expert Michael Asher, plus 'Soldier Five' by McNab's collegue on B20 Mike Coburn, it's pretty clear that a lot of what McNab wrote is either completely exaggered or a pack of lies.

The claim that B20 accounted for 250 Iraqi soldiers for example. Nonsense. They were lucky if they hit 10. The emphasis on the Second in Command Vince Philips being incompetant. Also rubbish. Puting the blame of non-extraction on 'head shed' when in fact two choppers did arrive to pick the patrol up and the patrol had already taken and E&E plan totally divergent to their submitted idea to walk to Saudi.

McNab as patrol leader is responsible for:
* changing the E&E plan without telling anybody
* not double-checking the radio frequencies before embarkation
* allowing the patrol to split into two
* not taking precautions against the cold, showing he had no local knowledge and hadn't done his homeword, leading to two of his men dying of cold
* not taking landrovers, instaead letting he patrol walk with 20 stone bergens


He also made up accounts of how his section drove in the taxi (actually a white toyota that Asher discoverd in Iraq) into an armed checkpoint all guns blazing. Also the account of running 20 miles from the drop-off point to the LUP - more like 2km as both Coburn and Asher state. McNab should also have realised that the shepherd boy would follow the same route 1 day after the next, so after the near miss on day 1 they should have been alert for possible compimise well in advance. Also the account of the patrol exiting the LUP under fire from platoons of Iraqis was a lie: Asher foudn the man in the digger who revealed, swearing to god, that it was him, his borther, and his fatehr with an AK47 and two old rifles!

McNab clearly has embellished the story to make it sound like an agaisnt all odds acocount of near superhuman endurance and bravery. In the process he is trying to use the imag of the SAS as the elite to bolster his own image, and his book sales, both of this and the Nick Stone novels. I don't compltely blame McBNab fopr the failure of B20 but the fact was that it was a very un-heroic cockup, a pathetic attempt by the Special Forces at all levels of the chain of command to try to live up to both its own repuation and try to find a place in modern warfare, amongst the guided missles etc, to justify its participation and even existence.

The fabrication of this sort matches perfectly with the kind of macho bravodo image that McNab was trying to put out at the time of preparation for the trip when he decided that relatively lightweight sleeping bags would not be taken. He did of course make sure he took his own quilted coat, not that he told anybody else about, letting the others freeze in their summer gear.

I don't deny that the patrolmen of B20 were brave and committed soldiers. Quite the opposite. They were let down by poor suypport, poor leadership, and poor preparation by a man who is now a millionaire due to his self-serving fabrications. Most of all the patrolmen who have been killed or tortured as a result of this incompetance still have to suffer the McNab version of the B20 affair.

"He's a bit of a rough diamond but his heart's in the right place."

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[deleted]

You are right, nobody deserves to be vilified for what they did. Certainly Vince Phillips did not deserve the shoody treatment he recieved from Ryan. Even McNab has speoken out about Ryan's disgraceful behaviour.

And before you say I don't know what I'm talking about, it might interest you to know that both McNab and Ryan are held somewhere between ridicule and contempt in the SAS, not only for what they have done, but for they way they have sold out their stories for money.


Read Bravo Two Zero (McNab) and The One That Got Away (Ryan). Then read the bestselling SAS fiction by the same authors. The similaries are striking.

Also think about the practicalities of it all. 8 isolated, bedraggled, frozen men, with virtually no ammo after the first contact, with escape or survival on their agenda, accountinf for 250 enemy soldiers? As I said according to former Regimental RSM Peter Ratcliffe: "modern military thinking means that it would take 1,250 soldiers to eliminated 250 enemy. In many ways it is a shame McNab was captured and Ryan escaped, otherwise they would have won the war single-handedly!"

"He's a bit of a rough diamond but his heart's in the right place."

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[deleted]

Ryan made a decision as 2ic. Vince got lost and fell asleep in the cold. If they'd gone looking for him they'd be dead too.

Ryan told Phillips to "get a *beep* grip and keep moving" until they could find a vehicle. Phillips didn't make it. People die, *beep* happens, it was a war going on, they were behind enemy lines. What were they supposed to do? And what the *beep* would you do, crawfrordboon? Tell him to put more clothes on and take the tube?


They didn't bring out the Landies because when they tested them in Saudi, they got stuck in the sand. The satellite imagery they had gotten from the americans couldn't be read properly, so they thought there'd be soft sand in Iraq. But it was infact hard, rocky ground.

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[deleted]

Well said matey, well said. Im reading the book at present and even though Im only half way thru, some of the stuff this guy above mentioned, isnt even in the book. Nowhere did it say they encountered 250 Iraqis, it didnt even give a number, and suggesting that it was his fault three of his fellow soldiers and mates died because of his "incompetence" is nonsense and a bit naff to be honest. Unprepared, maybe, but Im sure what happened was the last thing anybody wanted so to say stuff like that is wrong. Lets not forget what he had to go thru in that bloody awful cell for "queen and country"

"...makes Cambodia look like Kansas"

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[deleted]

Sir, you need a hobby.

If you had read Asher's book you would realise that he corroborates much of what Mcnab and Ryan wrote, as well as highlighting the untruths of both.

He also uncovered illogical untruths in both stories, for example he proved that one of the hikes through the desert at night was longer than both Ryan and Mcnab recorded, and that also was corroborated by Coburn.

Its fairly well documented that the fights and other aspects of the story were glossed up a fair bit.

and the 5 items you reckon Mcnab were responsible for are all well documented in all 5 of the books, sorry 4, I havent read the book by the RSM yet. Mcnab did accept responsibility for Vince Philips death and he didnt make him out to be incompetant (that was Ryan) so i dunno why your taking that angle .

There are some sad aspects of the books, particularily Ryans, but hey, that was written like 10 years ago.

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It still seems to me like he was out to get them.

His t.v programme was cringeworthy, it was terrible, he wanted to make them look bad from the start, he wasn't interested in anything other than making them out as liars.

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Maby the *beep* (asher) was paid by the British DOD ( Department of Defense) to *beep* up the stories of andy an chris.

I base that on the fact that the British gouverment wasn't really happy with bouth books.

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None of you have a clue....every books shows a diffent angle and the only people who know the truth are the surving members of the patrol.

In fact the only member of that patrol who has not written a book or given an interview is the soldier only known as "Dinger".

Either way no-one knows and i don't like chris ryans spin on things but thats life, so don't judge people and assume and all that when you don't know crap and only what yuo have read in a few books.
Just because yuo've read a fwe books it doesn't make you an expert.

So you can assume all you assume all yuo like, i guess we'll never know.

If it ever does come out it will come out thirty years after the mission, because thats when the secfrecy act wears off on missions and stuff....

so i guess we'll have to wait till about 2021...



I always smoke after sex, so back in England i'm a twenty a day smoker - Blackadder

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I think when you've been through as much as both of the chaps in question, you've probably earned the right to gloss things up a little.

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I don't really think you have the right to lie no matter what you've been through, but that's the question, are they lying?

Personally, i don't think they're lying, maybe it's over dramatised a little but Mal's book (with Dinger helping a lot in the writing by the way 'soul') seems the most truthfull to me.

Ok we can never know for sure, but with the evidence we have we can make an informed decision and, if we like, we can discuss that with other people, otherwise there'd be no point to these forums would there...

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I haven't fought in the military, yet, but I believe that unless you have served your nation a civilian doesn't deserve the right to acuse them of lying and changing the story to make them look better.

www.stevealten.tk
Your leading source for Steve Alten news.

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[deleted]

Lol... what about the Iranian embassy siege... which was filmed and aired on national t.v including interviews with the guys involved?

We have the real story, from all accounts, we can use our intelligence to see what was dramatised and what was underplayed. There's five books on it, three by guys who were there, one of those three was constantly assisted in the writing by Dinger. We have the real story.

As for not being allowed to have an opinion on when someone is lying because you've not served in the military... well even though i don't agree with the guys opinion, i have to disagree with you there as well.

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Mate read the book the told them to head east till the hit the pipe line then head south using the slope of the ground for cover

plus if it was all a lie wouldn't you think the other members of the patrol would come out and say that the account that Andy McNab was incorrect?

i dont think the guys that were tourchered would agree with you!!!

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[deleted]

by Fulliautomatix:

Don't come onto the thread, say 'None of you has a clue'


well most don't.
They are just over pretentious kids who think they know it all from a few books they've read and games they've played.

people come on here and call these guys liars but they know nothing.

The truth is i doubt we will ever know the real truth because each soldier will tell their own tell and give their own account, and each one will vary.

I wasn't being hypocritical.

I was saying how people who have no idea should judge these people, then i said we won't know anyway until 2021 or maybe longer because of the national secrets act.




My only regret is that I didn't drink every pub dry and sleep with every woman on the planet.

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A true member of the SAS doesn't squeal about his time in the SAS, never. It's in the code, and a good soldier holds the code. If the events in these books aren't ficitional, they were written by members who broke the code and are thus not worth being called SAS.

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Whatever... are you in the SAS? Or are you 16 and know someone who's dad is...

"Kevlar is for pussies"

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Absolutely right, the fact that the accounts of the participants in B20 do not agree is entirely unsurprising, as anyone with any military experience will tell you there isn't a hell of a lot of time to take notes during a running battle. If their accounts did agree that would be evidence of a cover story. In fact there has never been, and never will be an objective account of what happened because there were no objective observers. The so called evidence presented by some documentarians is open to misinterpretation by those with an axe to grind. A lie is when someone willfully makes a statement they know to be untrue. By this definition all tellers of soldiers tales are liars to some extent. As for them being held in ridicule by the SAS, it's probably fueled by resentment over the fact they have made millions from their *beep* stories, most of us only get an occasional free drink from ours.



"Young men make wars, and the virtues of war are the virtues of young men: courage, and hope for the future. Then old men make the peace, and the vices of peace are the vices of old men: mistrust and caution."

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On the B2O points, it was not the only patrol out that night.

I think that there are loads of holes in all the stories you hear, but are they deliberate lies? probably not, imagine this... you have been dropped into enemy territory, its cold, damn colder than you expected, and pitch dark, and silent, you are walking to your planned LUP an hour or so goes by, you are cold and bored, you might see your mission as a bit pants, after all, the air force is pounding the *beep* out of everything that moves, and you are on a political mission to help stop israel entering the war...... another half hour goes by then the first thing you get is a great flash and a lot of banging, you snap off a double tap and dive down for cover, your own shots have deafened you and your muzzle flash has taken your night vision away which will come back in about 20 seconds or so. one ak47 can fire 800 rounds per minute, chuck in a couple of old rifles firing from different positions and your nerves will probably tell you you are under attack from an enemy unit... after all, you are behind enemy lines arn`t you? you have been walking for an hour and a half! how far is that? how far do you normally walk in an hour? probably 3 miles or so? tabbing, even with cemo kit will cover 5 miles an hour.

so what i am saying is that these inconsistencies in various books are explainable, look at how police evidence varies so much between different witnesses to a minor crime or car accident, and this is from people that are not under threat and are going to work, home etc.

The Queen of England gave McNab the MM. Unlike the USA it is quite hard getting medals in the British Forces, and medals of bravery or exceptional conduct are given only after a very indepth investigation to ascertain which medal is deserved. Maybe the MOD should have waited until that ridiculous TV program that was aimed at being politically correct in order to help appease Iraqi attitudes until they decided to give McNab the MM,

And yes of course andy and chris are going to slag each other off,, chris will be pissed off that andy stood up to interrogation and proved himself and he didnt get the chance, and andy will be pissed at chris cos he escaped and tabbed 160 clicks home proving he was a double hard b**tard. They have both written their stories and made a wad of cash out of it, good for them both.

that last bit might sound a bit weird guys, but that is the sort of attitude of the blokes in the regiment, or any good unit for that matter.

One thing you cant dispute,,, they were there,, they did it,, where were you guys at the time? at work? at home? at school? and of course they get slagged of back at the regiment cos yes everyone would love to make a couple of million quid, after winning a military medal and having sean bean play them in a film.... great stuff.

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The B20 patrol is when you read between the lines a tale of a fu.ked patrol that the lads hacked out and came through the guys who were lost need to be remembered as lads who did what was needed, sometimes it isnt enough no matter how trained you are. McNabb is a great story teller and I have some mates who have met him and although hes a bit Hollywood now, they said he was an alright bloke. I have met Ryan when he was doing a lecture on CP, I found him to be a bit of a Walter and couldnt believe hed changed enough to make me wonder how hed got through selection! He did, its fact, but the mans a Walter now!

You have to think that both guys when writing these two accounts did receive advice from the publishers and probably embellished a bit for the, I think sensible reason of earning fu.king loads. I dont begrudge them! I do take a view that Ryan shouldnt have attacked the memory of a team mate with his finger pointing, its not the way its done!

I am not Regiment but work enough with them to know they are the same as us in their attitude. I do know some of my guys are now keeping diaries now and fancy themselves as the next literary star. Its all Andy and Chriss fault

I have no morals, but I'm a very moral person. (Voltair)

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What's a 'Walter?'

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Their books, their suppose to sell. Anyone who'd take up a job that requires as much restraint as the SAS and then right a book about its got to be a fool.

Oswald was a fag.

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Im picking a w*nker

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[deleted]

Actually mate its 4 Minimis, don't know where you lot get your statistics from but it sounds like a load of crap, they're soldiers not murderers, and don't moan about dead squaddies, everyone knows its not the safest job in the world and your cousin knew what he was getting himself into.

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"and don't moan about dead squaddies, everyone knows its not the safest job in the world and your cousin knew what he was getting himself into"

Nice... u're being really sensitive.

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Look sorry about your cousin but thats not quite what we where talking about really is it. I can't actually see why you brought it up. What we were talking about is the fact that McNab's book was way over done. There is no way on Gods green earth that they could kill 250 men on there own. The SAS are taught well, really well, but superman couldn't kill that many people. Everybody seems to have this idea that the SAS are these supermen who run in and kill everybody Cammando stlye but they are just men who for the most part are just a little tougher than you regular idiots who jion the regs looking for a rep. (Before I get sh*t I'm not calling all regs idiots but nobody can tell me alot of people don't join the army to brag about it.)

Oswald was a fag.

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There's no way on God's green earth that they didn't manage to kill anyone, either.

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Didn't they say 100 dead 150 in hospital? I'm not saying whats possible and what's not, thats just what i remember from the book/film.

"Take up our quarrel with the foe: to you from failing hands we throw the torch."

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for a start if you read all the available books on the matter you would find that mcnab stated that the patrol acounted for 250 casualties not enemy dead which is much more beleivable.
a lot of people on this thread say that mcnab and ryan may have lied to sell books. did anyone think that ashton did exactly the same thing? mcnab had his book approved by the mod and everything he stated in the book tallied with the after mission briefing wheras ryan's book holds no similarity to his briefing what so ever and having read and watched his more recent material i think i can conclude hes a complete oxygen thief

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[deleted]

The big question is... do you enjoy their books?

Books are a source of entertainment. Even if McNab did gloss up some parts its beats reading an entire book consisting of just desert trekking.

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This B-2-0 stuff reminds me of that old Japanese movie that has the same story told by at least three different characters and the story itself doesn't change that much, but the depiction of the characters does change.

On the whole, I'd be more suspicous of B-2-0 if everybody's story perfectly matched. Of course, McNab and Ryan are not going to depict themselves as incompetent, guys who go for the "special" whatever are perfectionists with a lot of pride or ego and they are going to justify their actions not matter what even if it's unintentional. For example; somebody could say a vehicle was red whereas the colour cod on the VIN says the vehicle is orange, somebody could say Soldier X threw his clipboard but in reality Soldier X let the clipboard go and allowed it to fall. If I had to choose one version as being "the truth" I would lean towards Asher's version because Asher has next to no personal bias to interfere with the story and he has the luxury of going back and taking a look at the physical evidence in the light of day and interviewing the Iraqis involved as well as the British involved. I wouldn't go so far as calling McNab a baldfaced liar but McNab's version of the story as well as Ryan's version of the story is going to be told from one side only and they were under stress and often operating in low-light or no light.

I do think the books are worth a read, not necessarily for an accurate historical narrative of the mission, but for giving insights into the soldier's mindset and also for illustrating a bit how the SAS operates.

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[deleted]

McNab and the others were recruited and trained by the SAS. Which means that these boys had to be the *beep* or they simply wouldn't have made selection.

Pure and simple.

It's nice and easu to push theories about fabrication and lies from the comfort of your bedroom. Try it after something like that happeneing to you. How long would you last under torture?

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Nobody says their training and the events in that war weren't ... intense. But it's against all expierence (also of the british army) that an eight man team kills 100 soldiers and injures another 100 (as it is said by the Iraqi officer in the movie). My book recommendation to you is "Eye of the storm" by Peter Ratcliffe.

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I think what people forget is that when Michael Asner did his book / documentary that Iraq was still under Saddams control & that they had an Iraqi secret police escort everywhere they went.

So the people they met had been arranged by the Iraqi govt so of course the people are not going to paint either McNab or Ryan in a good light & make them look like liars.

What i dont understand is why Michael Asner disregards this & takes everyone except for Ryan & McNab as telling the truth ?? Dont get me wrong I agree that the fights have been spiced up to make it for a more entertaining story but to say the whole thing is a lie is bollux

Lets not forget that Michael A also made his fame n fortune from writing TRUE SAS story books so its a bit double standards for him to start saying they betrayed the regiment when all SAS - current / retired as supposed to keep the code of silence.

I only added this post as I watched the DVD again the other night & like others have said already - none of us were there, not even Michael was there so you can take what you want from the story -- all true / all BS but regardless these men went over there & fought for their country & sadly some died for it ..

Anyway both all 3 have gotten rich off the SAS - Ryan, McNab & Asner -- thanks to us as like them or hate any of them we all love to hear above the exploits of the SAS.

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