I thought mcnab was a damn liar? - Bravo Two Zero (1999) Discussion

[–] PhillyMobster 19 years ago

uhhhhhh........source?

"Four things greater than all things are, Women and Horses, and Power and War." --Rudyard Kipling

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[–] mickj69 19 years ago

The source? Michael Asher of course. The bloke who tried to make money from all of it by releasing a book and, as anyone who has seen the TV programme he made called "the real bravo two zero"(same name as his book) will know, is also an absolute wanker.

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[–] PhillyMobster 19 years ago

Never read the book or seen the movie, but I'll take McNabb's word over the word of some celebrity journalist whos just out to get 'the scoop'.

"Four things greater than all things are, Women and Horses, and Power and War." --Rudyard Kipling

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[–] dgi18625 18 years ago

You can not establish the truth of McNab's story unless you have some knowledge of what happens in these types of operations. I served with the Australian Special Air Service Regiment for 14 years and I can, to a very infinite degree say that McNab's story of what happened is very far fetched. During my service with the Australian SASR I also completed exchange duty with the British 22nd SAS on three occassions,so I find McNab's story to be 90% far fetched.

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[–] tonylee27 17 years ago

2 things to say..

1. i think you are full of **** and 2. Bravo Two Zero is famous for a reason, how many thousands of missions has the SAS done? Tens of Thousands maybe? Its Famous because of the extraordinary set of circumstances. Who do you think you are to say its 90% far fetched??

You was in the Aussie SAS?? LOL excuse me if i think what YOU say is 90% far fetched....

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[–] ty_314 17 years ago

ok tony, if you were aussie sas for 14 years how far did you have to run and how long did you have to do it, when you were trying out, where are the sas based in australia? whats the barracks name? and whats the sas song if you can answer me all of these correct ill believe you.

noww i know all this stuff because i am also army and i have mates in the sas

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[–] tenkisoratoti 17 years ago

Just tracked your IP and my Jihad crew is off to get ya. Don't lie, the Australian SAS is a cheap rip off anyway, get your own special forces.

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[–] ApocalypticMight 16 years ago

The Aussie SAS in anything but a cheap rip off, Many of the earliest Units employing anything similar to modern SF Tactics were Aussie, going back to the boer war (BVC), the Concept for the British SAS was developed from a number of sources, including the Australian Independent Companies in the 2nd AIF and later, M and Z Special Units.

Also, we have 4 RAR (cdo.) who perform a similar role. So we do have our "Own" Special Forces.

Now to the issue of whether McNab was lying or not, he's a SOLDIER telling WAR STORIES, Some exaggeration is to be expected, however so accuse him of making it all up, is to say the least, rather stupid. for starters, if he was a terrrible leader and he screwed it up all by himself, then I dare-say Chris Ryan and the rest of his patrol would have spoken up and asked that he be relieved of command.

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] scott.probst 12 years ago

I don't know about that. That guy was in a territorial SAS unit, and had some superior language skills and local knowledge when he went back to track what had happened.
And... why didn't McNab check his radios before he went?

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[–] rosalee_adams 19 years ago

Hollywood often takes something and embellishes it.........It is called 'movie license' according to a cousin of mine who has been in the movie biz for years.........the film *beep* is another good example.
I take it all with a grain of salt instead of letting it wreck my enjoyment of seeing a film. If you demand straight shooting, no pun intended, then watch documentaries shot by war photographers, but even then it is edited to a degree.

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] Twobie 19 years ago

Just to go off the topic for a moment I heard things between 'Chris' the guy who escaped and Andy McNab were kind of rocky. I read it in an issue of Ralph magazine, where they interviewed Chris now I'm not sure if its to do with the situation they went through or the fact that they both had put out books at the same time, but I recall reading that Chris thought of Andy as a 'wanker'.

'Its all in the reflexes.' ~ Big Trouble in Little China

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[–] mickj69 19 years ago

I think Ryan said something like that in the last chapter of his book as well. Ryan released his book a few years after mcnab I think so it couldn't of been that. I always thought Chris was quite an arrogant tosser though, according to his book he practically won the gulf war.

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] PhillyMobster 19 years ago

What does that mean? No one has given me a concrete example of McNabb lying. I'm not defending him if he did, but don't accuse someone of something unless you can back it up. And surfer, WTF do you mean by 'the pointless deaths of his comrades'? That was a British SAS team whose job was to locate SCUD launchers. They were trying to save the lives of innocent Israelis. Those who died were heroes, and fell fighting for a good cause.

"Four things greater than all things are, Women and Horses, and Power and War." --Rudyard Kipling

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[–] RitchieRitch69 17 years ago

It wasn't that Ryan thought of McNab as a 'wanker', but he did say he was moody and withdrawn after the incident. After reading both of the books, I saw in a magazine that Ryan thinks McNab blames himself for the 8-day trek that Ryan had to go for. He also thought that the appearence of him, starved and looking rough made McNab feel even more responsible.

Although I think that hindsight is a wonderful thing. I give Special Forces blokes a big thumbs up. (Wish I could do it. Although I'm going to apply for the regualar British Army. PS. Sorry if I sound like a 'fanboy.')

Shaun: 'Its just that Ed doesn't have many friends.'
Ed: 'Can I get...any of you *beep* drink?'

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[–] Twobie 17 years ago

I didn't even remember that I had posted on this thread but thanks for the response Ritchie.

Grubenstyle
http://www.grubenstyle.com/

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[–] Enforcer82g 19 years ago

From what I've heard, the account is for the most part true, there was some dramatic license taken with the film, for example, they didn't insert on the first attempt, they aborted and tried again the next night. With that said, I think the mission was run very badly.

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[–] mickj69 19 years ago

Well it couldn't have been run much better given the circumstances, the other two patrols that went out that night into the same area of the desert came right back. One of them just jumped back on the chopper and basicly said *beep* this, the other stayed out there for a day and chose to evac.

"Doesnt change that McNab lied to make money out of the pointless deaths of his comrades."

Show me some proof, he may have even been forced to change some parts of it by the British government they still vet his books today. And considering that only a week or two after the SAS and delta force went in the Scud attacks on Isreal Stopped, averting a big war between the USA/UK/Isreal and a few more arab countries I wouldn't call their deaths pointless at all.

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[–] neil-mcgettrick 19 years ago

Well said mickj692003 !

I've read all the books on the Brave Two Zero mission and McNab's count is spot on, ok the number of Iraq's might had been exaggerated slightly but everything else is spot on.

And any *Bleep*'er who thinks that it was run badly is a fool! Under the circumstances and the extreme weather and distances they had to travel by foot, they should all be admired for their bravery and professionalism.

I've spent some time working with some Ex-SAS (and some still serving) soldiers who has taken part in various missions (including Iraq) and I can tell you, these men are without a doubt the Elite of the Elite! So you sad geeks who have never really been involved with the SAS can niggle all you want.

these men are hero's and you should never forget Steve "Legs" Lane, Vincent David Philips and Rob Consiglio. RIP.

(Rob is in the the picture of Red Team (CRW) in McNabs book, Immediate Action, Rob is the Sniper on the far right. McNab is on the back row, 7th from the left and Chris Ryan is also on the back row 10th from the left.)

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] whitejimfrank 19 years ago

Regardless of the number of Iraqis chasing them that still would tak alot of manhood to do what they did. They deserve better than your skepticism.

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[–] breeze9-1 19 years ago

(Rob is in the the picture of Red Team (CRW) in McNabs book, Immediate Action, Rob is the Sniper on the far right. McNab is on the back row, 7th from the left and Chris Ryan is also on the back row 10th from the left.)

Your reply:

I agree that it is Bob Consiglio and Andy in that picture, however I don't believe that the guy 10th from the left is Chris Ryan. Chris served in D squadron, and that is a photo of B squadron when they were on the CT team.

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[–] booviemuff 11 years ago

No doubt special forces (SAS, SF, Delta, Seals, Rangers, etc) are pretty much 'unsung heroes'. Mainly because they never talk about it. They don't have to prove anything to anyone.

That's why I'm not entirely sold on Andy McNab and his stories.

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[–] ddpsabu 19 years ago

there was no arguement over what vehicle to nick.
They all WANTED a land rover, so they copuld bliutz it over the countryside and get to the boarder, the only one they could get though was a yellow cab. It was a case of needs must.

They got lost after bad weather split them up.
tey were tabbing in a line, lost in their own worlds and when they stopped to try the satnav, they forgot to tell the front 3 or somthing like that.

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[–] great_kahn 19 years ago

I have no doubt they all fought bravely and did good work with what they had, BUT the way mcnab tells it youd think he was the friggin terminator, i heard instead of fighting the entire iraqi army it was several farmers with ak-47's and he has blown the story out of proportion to make money. i probably wouldnt say this too his face, cos he might go SAS on my arse.

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] alexr1407 19 years ago

I have this controversial book.

It's called The Real Bravo Two Zero and written by Michael Asher-himself a former SAS trooper who is also speaks Arabic and libed something like 20 years living with the Bedouin.

In 2000 he travelled to Iraq and got the chance to interview most of the Iraqis present in BTZ's mission-e.g. the 'idiot on a digger' (who had served in the Iraqi Special Force), the shephard boy, the policeman at the road block, the people who found Dinger/Legs/Coburn etc.

What Asher disagrees over is:

1). S-60s did NOT fire on BTZ. An S-60 shell is about the size of a Coke can.
2). When the patrol split, McNabs team did NOT cover as much ground as they had said.
3). Many of the team (like Stan) did not (as the Iraqis present said) take out hoardes of infantry, APCs and tanks. There are still rusting hulks in the Sinai Desert from the 1967 Seven Day War: so where are the tank kills McNab explains they destroyed? Even if the Iraqis did move them afterwards, there would have least been rivets, a nut/bolt everything.
4). Finally (amongst other things) there was no evidence BTZ killed 250 Iraqis.

My two cents over, I'd like to mention that they were all heroes in my opinion: especially Bob Consiglio who was alone and died when a posphorus grenade on his pack ignited. Whatever the Yanks say about Delta, SAS will always come out top.

Frank: And I'll tell you one more thing: I faked every orgasm!

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] PhillyMobster 19 years ago

Great, now we've descended to adolescent bickering over the best SF units. I respect the SAS. I don't think that they are any better or any worse than some of the top American SF. They are all trained in the same fields to the same standards, and I'm sure if you personally ask a Navy SEAL if he thinks he's better than SAS, he'll tell you to grow up.

"Four things greater than all things are, Women and Horses, and Power and War." --Rudyard Kipling

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[–] cmdotace 19 years ago

I hate when people argue over SF units.

I live in hereford and last year when I was in college I joined a TA unit in order to gain some experience (get fit).

This particular unit is loaded with ex-personel from the so called "elite." I can honestly tell you that they despise the 2 authors in question. Also the SAS itself is so overhyped its unreal. Let me tell you why; we were on what is known as an APWT or annual personal weapons test, where you go on a range and perform a basic 60 round shoot. You have to score something like 35 hits at varrying distances and in varying positons (prone, kneeling, standing.)

Out of the attending that day (around 30 soldiers all "elite") only 4 people passed 1st time including me and we were ages waiting for the others to re-shoot.

Just to finish when I was growing up in hereford being in the cadets and the fact that 1 in 3 families are in someway related to the SAS, I was completely amazed by them. Now having served briefly with them first hand my opinion has dropped sharpley.

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[–] Theo Robertson 19 years ago

You served briefly with a bunch of former members of the SAS in a TA unit !

Either you`re talking s--t mate or they are

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] Theo Robertson 19 years ago

Yeah okay sorry for being quick off the mark but you must realise it`s ridiculously arrogant for someone who`s in the TA to come on here and say how unimpressed they are with the SAS . Do three years in the regular army ( None of this weekend soldier caper ) then try SAS selection . Lets see how how you do

As Jetlag pointed out the SA80 is entirely different from what the SAS would be used to . Not only that but much of SAS training revolves around hostage rescue where they`d train to shoot an enemy from several FEET away during a CQB , they`d be using a SMG or more likely a pistol . It`s a bit like comparing a wild west gunfighter to an olympic marksman

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] garethgazz 19 years ago

Regardless of all that, i still think that ex members of the most highly trained SF Regiment in the world could complete a TA 60 round shoot!

Someone's lying.

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] ianrthompson 19 years ago

Micahel asher's book is very good. As is Peter Radcliffe's Eye of the Storm As is Mike Coburn's Soldier 5. I would say that Coburn and Radcliffe both give the more accurate version of events.

McNab and Ryan probably included a bit of artistic licence on the advice of their agents and/or publishers. After all, what's more sellable: a story of an SAS unit coming under heavy fire from S60 AA guns, or a story about an 8 man SAS patrol being pinned down by some farmers?

Perhaps not so much of a liar.

Also, being in a SF unit does not make you the best shot in the British Army.

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[–] garethgazz 19 years ago

No one said it did.

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[–] jackmumford 19 years ago

A real SAS unit would easily pass through any shooting range. Either TA man is lying, his buddies are lying, or they're about 60 years old now. My grandad used to be the leader of a British Police Force's armed response unit and at one point they trained with the SAS going through a shooting range where you had to shoot bad guys and not civillians that would jump out from behind buildings and the like. He told me that two things were striking about the SAS when their turn came around. Firstly they did the course quicker then anyone else, hit every target practically straight away with the minimal amount of misses and were staggeringly professional. Secondly they completely failed the test. They shot everyone - their philosophy was that in a town full of hostiles there's no time to distinguish between enemy and innocent. You come to the window you deserve to be shot.

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[–] Master_Lo 18 years ago

You come to the window you deserve to be shot

No you don't. Civilians make lots of mistakes, curiosity is among them.

"I won't say a single solitary slovo unless I have my lawyer here. I know the law, you bastards"

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[–] ThePassenger-2 18 years ago

I'm not sure what your point is.

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[–] pwitter 17 years ago

Yeah... ex-SAS don't go in the regular TA. If they go TA at all, its to 21 or 23 SAS, the TA versions of 22 SAS. Those "elite" guys probably flunked out (RTU'd) of 21/23 SAS but still brag that they were there. The TA SAS is not the 22 SAS that you think of. They are trained to high standards but their job is mostly recon. They are trained to get behind the lines and dig in, reporting enemy movements... no sniping, no assaults, no CT work... just watching.

Of course, they've also never been deployed to the field--unless in the current Iraq war and we probably won't know for a few more years.

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[–] tangodown85 18 years ago

Actually they're are TA units of virtually every single regular army unit, theres 21 and 23 SAS and TA detachments of paras, REME, green jackets, RGBW, RLC, virtually all of them included in the TA, even the pen pushers from the AGC.
I've read soldier five, bravo two zero, the one who got away and michael ashers account, i could sit here ranting all day about the indifferences like asher did but maybe someone needs to sit down and string ALL the accounts together.
Every member of the armed forces takes the APWT, especially in the TA where its part of your bounty, it doesn't matter whether your a private to a friggin colonel and your from either the paras or your a cook in the RLC.
And it wouldn't surprise me to find ex-reg SAS in the TA SAS, it makes sense.

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[–] tonylee27 17 years ago

No SF in the world are trained as good as the SAS... even the americans know that, a friend of mine has been a royal marine for 20 years and couldnt do an exercise on dartmoor because of the foot and mouth outbreak so they flew 2 sections out to america to do exercises with delta force troops. Fact is the brits carried twice as much weight twice as fast as the americans. And these are only marines.. not SAS!

I find it quite funny how many people on these boards like to ridicule McNab and say which parts are lies etc... and find it even funnier the amount of "i work with SAS", "i was in the SAS"....

Whoever says that wants instantly ignoring, no real Ex SAS member would openly tell the world that was/is SAS.

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[–] shaselkais 17 years ago

There is one thing you are forgetting: The Marines are not men, they are machines. I know that that is a novel way of putting it, but from my time living on barracks in Germany, England, and elsewhere, I know that Marines go on for longer, fight harder, and "do" more than everyone else I have seen over the years.

And on your "I work with the SAS/I was in the SAS" comments: There are 3 types of "SAS" men-

1. Real SAS soldiers: Quiet and reserved about what they do, and have done.
2. Real SAS "Cowboys": These are teh guys with the cross AK-47's on their walls back home.
3. 20+ stone fatguys: Generally appear in Hereford, thrive in pubs (usually with one or more Gompers). They claim to be in the SAS, but if they were, their job would be to jump through the window and sit on people. [Note that they may or may not have the crossed AK's].

Something that I have found over the years: IF someone says that they were soldiers (of any unit, but specifically SF units), and talk/brag/boast about it a lot in excited tones, don't believe them unless they are talking about some form of barrack humour (s**tting in someone's Bergen for instance). If they say that the served and only talk about it if you pursue the issue (up to a point, and believe me, there is always a point), then they are generally genuine.

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[–] davidchelseaace 14 years ago

If you read a book by Royal Marine Commando Matt Croucher (Bulletproof). He says that he was in Afganistan, and the Navy Seals would stop an op halfway through if they wanted to get back to bc for scran(food).
They would also use vehicles, where as the RMC would hike it on foot.

Now; I'm not disputing that all the SF are equally well trained, but in my opinion, the British SF or even normal armed forces, are the better option for ops.

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[–] alt-id 17 years ago

I think McNab gets alot of flak for being the first one to have broken the SAS silence, yet the story was recounted in General (Sir)Peter De La Billiere's book "Storm Command" and briefly in his auto-biography. It also suggests the round that hit Chris Ryans was from a .50 cal.(not an S60)
As for him being a liar I go with the dramatic license theory.
From what I remember from The One that got away is that Chris takes on more armour on his own after the split. That i found harder to believe than the original contact when they were all together. I also found ashers comments on this part hard as well as i dont think 2 bedoin and an old man would scare off 8 Hardened SAS types.

Oh and I dont know anyone in the SAS, I dont know anyone who knows anyone in the SAS and I certainly dont know anyone who knows someone who knows someone in the SAS!

But if your a girl and you fancy a S**G im definatly SF.
I'll be in and out before you know it :)

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[–] lmblau 19 years ago

The SAS... definately the most talked about SF unit in the world.

As for the americans, i sure hope Delta, SEAL & Marine Recon are nothing like the rest of the army. Cause i don't think they ever heard of hand signals... you can hear them from 100m away. They better have a lot of SF units, to make up for the rest of the army.

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[–] CHASTAIN6 19 years ago

Apparently nobody on this board has heard of Demo Dick Marcinko, SEAL TEAM SIX, DEVGRU or the Infamous RED CELL.

You can all say what you want about SAS being the best but in truth, EVERY SPECWAR unit is the best in their own way. To the idiot who said SEALS have a bad combat record compared to SAS, No SEAL has EVER been captured in combat.

All SPECWAR units bring something to the table! There is no "best unit"

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[–] Soul_Stealer_2001 19 years ago

You can talk all you want about how you think mcnab is a liar etc etc, but you have nothing on him and the rest to be truth full.

At the end of the day none of you know the truth, and most won't because you wern't there...and neither was i.

So stop judging people just from how you've read about them in a book beacuse if you don't know them in real life, then you shouldn't be judging them so much.

And if you are then you are an idiot...

The truth is none of us knows the truth, so we should just grin and bear it and just get on with life and stop thinking that you all actually know anything about bravo two zero or the SAS because chances are...you don't.

These guys are heroes, and brave men, coragous, daring, and above us all.

Live every day like its your last...one day you'll be right!

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[–] kingarthurofcalgary 19 years ago

I have a mate of mine has a couple of service-buddies in the ADF. One of them is a LtCol in 1Cdo and the other is ex-SASR. Both of them went to visit "Mark" when he arrived at hospital in Australia. And "Mark" says something completely different than McNab. I trust "Mark" (Mike Coburn, pseudonym) more than I trust McNab. McNab also mentioned that he covered quite a long distance in 3 hours, tactical movement. And that, my friends, is *beep* 'cause you don't cover 20km in 3 hrs tactically.

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[–] ThePassenger-2 18 years ago

And I'm woman enough to say I wouldn't have the guts to do what they were willing to do.

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[–] TheChaosBringer 18 years ago

CHASTAIN6, you ought to read more about the SEALs than the Rogue Warrior series. Honestly man. The SEALs, especially ST6 have had a rough go of it in real world operations.
At least, as far as those stories available to the public. Perhaps only the failures come to the publics attention. 'course any clandestine operation that sees any public attention ought to be considered a failure, no?
I'm not knocking them, but you read more of SEAL failures than a lot of the other "snake eaters."
Perhaps the other units are better at keeping a lid on things?

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] myk-harwood 18 years ago

I know that in the books of his that I've read, Demo Dickie always spoke very highly of the SAS...
I seem to remember that he had a few friends in the regiment (although this could have been from one of the novels - the Green one I think - fiction or not however, I'll bet the guys he talked about were at least based on real people) and he certainly considered them to be very much his equals as men'o'war.

--Myk

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[–] badhabit85 18 years ago

McNab is a damn liar in all ways.

1- his real name is steve mcnab
2- michael asher is a helluva lot more believable due to him being able to speak with the iraqis due to his time spent with the bedoin.
3- "andy" mcnab still tries to hide his identity and be anonumous but chris ryan is seen more often on tv and newspapers and they both served in the same reg.
4- i have asked 3 ex-SAS members i know (one of them being a part of the iranian embassy siege op and who is mentioned in immediate action for setting off a flash bang near princess di and singeing her hair and nearly being RTU'd) who all confirm that he was a prick.
5- the other books seem to confirm each other.
6- the SAS are better than delta because delta have to pass the selection process to serve with the SAS on attachment. Also 1para beat the delta record on delta's own assault course

Hope this clears a few things up
Serving member of the Royal Signal Corps.

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[–] JamesMum01 18 years ago

There is a little known gurkha SF unit called Ho Na Dain, they are few in number but are supremely good at their tasks. They are very exciting.

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[–] shakennotsdtirred 18 years ago

Here's an interesting conversation I noticed on a popular airsoft forum:

"I won't buy any book by Chris Ryan or Andy McNab after having read 'The Real Bravo Two Zero' by Michael Asher and 'Eye of the Storm' by Peter Ratcliffe. Both cast serious doubts on the chain of events described by Ryan and McNab, on top of which, both Ryan and McNab tried to do the most unforgiveable thing possible in the military, which is to try and pin the cock-up on someone who died and is no longer around to answer back."

"Ironic, as I refuse to read any books by Michael Asher and Peter Ratcliffe, as a lot of their supposed 'facts' are refuted by Ryan and McNab in their books 'Bravo Two Zero' and 'The One That Got Away'. Worst of all, Asher and Ratcliffe do the most unforgiveable thing which is to cast apsersions and accusations on the people involved, without actually having been there themselves."

The latter in my opinion has hit the nail on the head.

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[–] lloydrb-1 18 years ago

Well,Mike Coburn was there,Mal(Known as 'Stan' in the books)was there and both of them say McNab and Ryan were telling porkies.Ratcliffe may not have been there but he was for the debrief and he says what he heard in the debrief was a lot different to what was written.

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[–] gibb_williams 18 years ago

Of cousre there is going to be some points changed. The British MOD would never allow a book which gave a 100% detailed account of what happened on a special forces mission to be published.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] lloydrb-1 18 years ago

"Of cousre there is going to be some points changed. The British MOD would never allow a book which gave a 100% detailed account of what happened on a special forces mission to be published."

This is directly from Radcliffe's book. pg 429:

"During the debriefings at Stirling Lines, there was mention of the patrol being involved in several firefight skirmishes with Iraqi infantry, and of returning fire as they fought their way out. There was no suggestion at the time, however, that they had accounted for hordes of the enemy. But in Bravo Two Zero, ‘McNab’ writes about having been involved in extremely heavy and dramatic contacts with Iraqi armoured vehicles and substantial contingents of infantry, actions far larger and more colourful than anything mentioned in the Hereford debrief."

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[–] dereknoelsmith 17 years ago

My father served with some Gurkhas in Korea... said they were great guys to hang with in their downtime, and tough, cold, professsional buggers when they were on the job.

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[–] cra01016654 18 years ago

well aren't you intelligent 'BADHABIT85'?! And because your a serving member of the army, you are qualified to brand two stranger's liars...of course.

1- perhaps he doesn't use his name because he wants to remain anonymous? Think about that? Having people ask if he's the 'real' andy mcnab every day would be f*ing annoying. Hav-a-go heroes demanding he recount the story every day? No thanks. He made the right call and he's not a liar, he's protecting his family and his sanity.

2- Does being called pricks by ex members make them a liars? Err, no. The 'ex-members' are just *beep* off because they can't sell their stories due to the gagging contracts they signed. They're jealous. Think McNab gives a sh*t about them? He's put in his hard graft in the forces, he's entitled to his money and lifestyle. Beats tabbing over hills any day. Think they wouldn't trade places with him? Course they would mate. They talk trash because they wish they were in his shoes

Funny how all servicemen know somebody who is ex-SAS don't they eh? Hell, i didn't know that many people got in to the elite unit.
F*kin DJ

And to all those who are in a twist about the 'true' story. You'll never know the full truth, so forget it. Whether those boys took out 25, 250 or 2500 iraqi's is neither here-nor-there because the book essentially got sexed up. It wouldn't be as popular as it is if it was as factual on the killing side of things. We all love a good, gory killing spree now don't we?

X

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] TA_Black 18 years ago

There is no possible way that his bloody name is going to be found ... anywhere by anyone other than MoD (Ministry of Defence), UKSF (United Kingdom Special Forces), DSF (Director Special Forces) and the SAS. For crying out loud, there are few people that have seen his face, let alone known his name!!!!

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[–] mikeyj-1 18 years ago

Does anybody know what color the boathouse at Hereford is?

No matter where you go, there you are...

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[–] Devildog1124 18 years ago

Does anybody know what color the boathouse at Hereford is?

Good movie! ;-)

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] ilosby 18 years ago

That has got to be the best line in this whole thread.

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[–] dereknoelsmith 17 years ago

"Does anybody know what color the boathouse at Hereford is? "

Great reference!

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[–] LookinGood 10 years ago

*snerk*!

Red and blue? http://www.herefordrc.co.uk/

--
"I only watch box sets. Soya latte anyone?" (GuardianOnline reader CameronYJ)

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[–] Kev76 18 years ago

Badhabit, that was awesome what you said about:

"6- the SAS are better than delta because delta have to pass the selection process to serve with the SAS on attachment. Also 1para beat the delta record on delta's own assault course"

Where can one find more information on this?

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[–] myk-harwood 18 years ago

"2- michael asher is a helluva lot more believable due to him being able to speak with the iraqis due to his time spent with the bedoin."

You have to consider though - what was Asher's motive for writing what he did? Was it to make sure that *The Real Truth* saw the light of day, or was it to sell a lot of books? What exactly is it that makes him more trustworthy than the other two guys?
Whatever really happened in Iraq, it's a pretty definate fact that calling "Bravo Two Zero" and "The One..." a pair of packs of lies is gonna sell a lot more books than saying otherwise.
There's no way to tell which of the three, McNab, Ryan or Asher is the more honest and honourable story teller, and seeing as all three books were written for *PROFIT* I wouldn't say that any one of them was totally above suspicion.

--Myk

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[–] nachtsider 18 years ago

Certain issues have been raised regarding the authenticity of the accounts of the Bravo Two Zero mission that have been presented by Chris Ryan and Andy McNab. A comparison of the two accounts clearly reveals a number of inconsistencies. There have been accusations of exaggeration and distortion of the facts made against McNab and Ryan, stemming primarily from Michael Asher (an ex-SAS trooper/expert in Arab culture), who went to Iraq years after the war to research the Bravo Two Zero mission on location. Although his research is very thorough, he seems much too willing to accept the accounts of Iraqi witnesses as completely honest while holding McNab and Ryan's accounts in constant suspicion. It is interesting to note that the evidence he uncovered does debunk some aspects of McNab's account. One example is McNab's claim that Bravo Two Zero managed to kill between 200 and 250 enemy soldiers throughout the ordeal. Ryan provides more believable figures, never making such an outrageous assumption in his account, and even Asher has to lend more credibility to Ryan at the end of the day. In all fairness, those who were not there can only speculate to a certain extent. There is really no use further arguing about it unless someone out there is capable of reading the minds of the surviving members of Bravo Two Zero. My curiosity was caught by all the sensationalism surrounding the BTZ mission, and in my personal opinion, the truth probably lies somewhere between Ryan's account and Asher's conclusions (leaning closer to Ryan).

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[–] chris-johnston 18 years ago

There is also another book written about this very mission, Peter Ratcliff was the RSM of the SAS at the time, he was Mcnab's commanding office, the biggest error Ratcliff says Mcnab made was not to take vehicles with them, B20 were the only patrol not to take them.

Also to the people here saying the weather was "fine" during the time the guys were out on partol, well according to Ratcliff and another SAS soldier called Mike Curtis (who was also out in the desert in another partol) the weather was very cold and they describe it just as Mcnab does.

These 2 books (Ratcliff and Curtis's) do have a lot of detail that back's each other's storys up, Ratcliff does critise Mcnab a fair bit, but his book "eye of the storm" is worth a read.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] tonylee27 17 years ago

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There is also another book written about this very mission, Peter Ratcliff was the RSM of the SAS at the time, he was Mcnab's commanding office, the biggest error Ratcliff says Mcnab made was not to take vehicles with them, B20 were the only patrol not to take them.

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The Biggest error McNab made eh?

Thats coming from somebody that supplied incorrect radio frequencies and dodgy TACBE's?

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[–] libertarian45 12 years ago

"...You have to consider though - what was Asher's motive for writing what he did? Was it to make sure that *The Real Truth* saw the light of day, or was it to sell a lot of books? What exactly is it that makes him more trustworthy than the other two guys? ..."

Asher made it pretty clear in his book that he wanted to clear Vince Phillips's name and vindicate him for his family's sake. Vince was 2I/C of the patrol and McNab unloaded on him pretty hard in his book. Vince wasn't alive to dispute the claims and, as a former member of A Sqn recently cross posted to B Sqn just prior to the patrol, he was a bit of an outsider. I got to spend a few weeks sharing a barracks with Vince's Troop in the mid 80s. Of course, this gives me absolutely no insight into the events that happened 8 years later, but, it was pretty cool for someone my rank and age to get to talk to these guys. Topics of conversation were sport, women and a little music. True silent pros, but, very laid back and humble - not an ounce of bravado.

Asher's account seemed, to me, more logical if for no other reason than he was re-examining events in the cold light of day, with the benefit of hindsight, with tools at his disposal (like GPS etc) and in a completely stress-free environment. McNab and Ryan lived the nightmare realtime under extreme stress. Historians always say that if you interview 10 survivors of a battle, you'll get 10 differing accounts of what happened. Asher makes a point of stating that even if the patrol didn't take out as many enemy as they thought they did and even if their estimate of how much ground they covered on their E&E was out by over 100 kms, their's was a monumental achievement in endurance. They managed to run (in boots and belt kit with weapons) more than a marathon in one night. Asher confirms this by covering the same distance with GPS.

No matter which account you take as definitive, it was a remarkable feat of toughness and endurance.

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[–] tonylee27 17 years ago

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4- i have asked 3 ex-SAS members i know (one of them being a part of the iranian embassy siege op and who is mentioned in immediate action for setting off a flash bang near princess di and singeing her hair and nearly being RTU'd) who all confirm that he was a prick.

Hope this clears a few things up
Serving member of the Royal Signal Corps

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Tell us another story and this time add a little truth eh?

Royal Signals? LOL and you personally know 3 ex sas members... yeah sure dude, i bet you arnt even in the services at all. Maybe you are in the Catering Corps.

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[–] garethgazz 17 years ago

I agree with you but... whats wrong with the catering corps? Someones got to do it, don't snub them.

"Kevlar is for pussies"

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] shaselkais 17 years ago

Catering Corps don't exist anymore.... they get contractors to do it, meaning that the green eggs (long story) are no longer edible.

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[–] gibb_williams 17 years ago

Yeah when I was in 1996-2003 all the chiefs were part of the Royal Logistic Corps....

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[–] shaselkais 17 years ago

Yeah. RLC do it in-theatre, but more often than not its contracted out in the UK, not sure about the rest of the world though.

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[–] matterobbo56 15 years ago

awww why cant remfs like you do a bit more research before you gob off!!
1. first off mcnabs first name is actually stephen so il give you that one
2. why exactly is asher more beleivable because he can speak arabic? they are just as likely to lie to him directly as they would thru an interpreter
3. Mcnab serven in 14 intell otherwise known as the DET who were involved in covert ops in northern island. and he also killed a pira soldier when he was still a member of the reguler forces and is therfore still a good target for active IRA units
4. how does the someones opinion of him being a prick make him a liar?
5. the other books only confirm a small amount of the story and cotradict a lot more
6. point 6 has *beep* all to do with the post :D

so you cleared nothing up apart from establish that you know nothing about B20 but u cnat be blamed your just remf

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[–] S_coffey2001 16 years ago

It is interesting that while Mcnabs account came out in 1993, it took about 10 years for a book "claiming" that it was all untrue. Does anyone really belive a book that has interviews with people ( often via interupreters) who would claim to know what happened more than a decade before? If Mcnab was so inaccurate the MOD would have shot him down when it was first released. Andrew was very generous in his description of Ryans tab to Syria, shame Ryan could not show the same understanding!

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