Weapons



I was wondering why the SAS was using M-16's, M-203's, LAW rockets, and SAW's in the movie. Doesn't the British Army use that weird looking (by American standards) SA-80 and the like?

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The Standard issue for the British soldiers is the SA80 Assault rifle, however the SAS, SBS, and sometimes the Royal Marines and para's do not use them because they say that they are "clumsy" weapons that arn't accurate enough. Special forces certainly need weapons that are extremly accurate and easy to use, which is why they prefer the American made m-16 rifle with a grenade launcher attached.

Sometimes in a few conflicts the Marines and Parachute regiment don't use them either, instead they either use the M-16, or the SLR, (Self Loading Rifle,), though they haven't used them as much these days.


I always smoke after sex, so back in England i'm a twenty a day smoker - Blackadder

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"clumsy" weapons


The point there I believe is that the L85(SA80) cannot be used ambidextrously. This is the problem with all bull-pup rifles. (Bull-pup means the action is located behind the trigger) While they are only half the length of weapons like the M16 while retaining the same barrel length, when the weapon fires, the spent cases eject so close to the shooter that if they were to switch hands for close quarters combat, they'd get hot brass in their face.

not accurate enough


Thats actually not true. The L85 is one of the most accurate .223 rifles in the world. The reason the British SF uses the American Colt weapons like the M16 and M4 is because they are far more reliable than the L85. During the Gulf War, there were many reports of the rifle firing by itself if it was bumped. The magazines were terrible, and were so flimsy that one could crush one by stepping on it. There were some reports that if you squeezed the stock over the receiver, you could actually stop the movement of the bolt. This claim was never proven, but was another reason for the bad reputation of the rifle. It was also discovered that the location of the magazine release was in such a position that it could easily be bumped, releasing the magazine during firing, which would obviously not be desirable. There was also the problem that the SUSAT scope was the only sight mounted on the rifles, so if you broke it in heavy fighting, you'd pretty much be stuck with a useless weapon. Then there was the problem of the plastic stock literally melting in the desert sun. Combine the heat from sustained firing and 100+ degree temperatures, and you might as well just wrap the barrel in stick-putty. Just recently the British government spent several million dollars upgrading the rifle, but its still generally regarded as a sub-standard gun. With some more engineering it could potentially still become an excellent and reliable arm, but it has such a bad reputation at this point that no amount of money is going to change that.

The M16 series weapons likewise had some serious probelms early on, but we worked them out, and the Colt rifles and carbines are some of the best guns in the field these days. Sure there are hi-tech designs from SIG and H&K, but they haven't been seriously battle-tested by any major army, which is why I think pretty much all SF units prefer to stick with something thats proven.

"Four things greater than all things are, Women and Horses, and Power and War." --Rudyard Kipling

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Intresting, yeah now i remember..i think SF just prefer m-16's becasue they are easier to use and more reliable....

Intresting about those facts you put in though..very intresting!




I always smoke after sex, so back in England i'm a twenty a day smoker - Blackadder

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I can't believe they haven't gotten rid of them yet.

Actually, have they? I read something in the paper about how bad they were and a soldier branded the weapon a toy.

BTW, the patrol also used minimi light machine guns.

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which weapon?

I know about the minimi's, though i don't know when they were brought in...i don't know whether they were used in the falklands or not...



I always smoke after sex, so back in England i'm a twenty a day smoker - Blackadder

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They use the Diemaco SFW, or l119a1 now days, they have also been spotted with a 10" barrel on a SFW or Diemaco CQB..

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SLRs were replaced by SA80s, they don't get used any more cos they weigh a ton and break people's collar bones when they're not fired properly

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Dont wish to be the M249 gunner. Sure it might make a big noise and fire loads of rounds but you still have to carry it and all your bullets. I made that mistake when I wanted to be the GPMG man. Never again.

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The SA80 is an accurate weapon, aye, but unreliable. It jams all the time. Much has been corrected on the L85A2, but it's still a cumbersome weapon.

The SAS/SBS use Diemaco C8's and SFW's. They used M16A2's in the past, but moved away from them as soon as the Diemaco's came out, because the M16 is a poor weapon. It isn't reliable, and it's prone to breaking up. Same goes for the M4A1.

They still use the FN MINIMI's, though. Very good weapons.

66mm LAW's are sometimed used, but stuff like Milan and Javelin are taking over. 66mm is lightweight and reliable, but its too small to take out an MBT or a Russian BMP armoured personell carrier.

The SA80 is used by everyone else, and the bootnecks and pogos use some of the older M16's at times. Pathfinders from Para Reg. use the same kit as the SAS/SBS.

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Here is a list of weapons the SAS and SBS use,

M16 A1
M16 A2
M16 Sr16
M733

H&K MP5 A5
H&K MP5 A4
H&K MP5 SD5
H&K MP5 SD6

SA80
L85A1

APS Type 96

G3A3
*******************************************************************************************************

The M16 is used by the SAS and Mainley by The SBS for Jungle and Desert Missions Due to the weapon being Lightweight and carries a good few rounds of ammo,

The Mp5 is used for Close combat shooting By the SAS for eg. Storming Buildings, Street Combat etc etc...

The SAS & SBS Hardly use the SA80 & L85A1 due to the weapon being very heavy and jamming quite alot,

Now the APS type 96 is a very handy weapon for SAS snipers, It holds a magazine, So it is faster reloading, Can fit a Bi-Pod and has a railing system for scopes, Lazers Etc etc...

The G3A3 was used by the british Army in the mid 70's (Mainley in N.Ireland), The SAS used this weapon a couple of months befor the Iranian embassy Siege

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/uk/2000/iranian_embassy_siege/intro.stm

During that time they used the H&K Mp5,

Also the SAS & SBS use Browning Pistols as a standerd issue Weapon.

Hope this information helps,



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Let me guess, you have those airsoftguns, don't you?


Cause that list is a load of bollocks. Wake up, mate.

Britain never used the G3. We had the SLR's.

Some of the weapons in your list there doesn't even exist. You should write up a list when you've been in the Special Boat Service or Special Air Service.

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Which weapon in that list doesn't exist ?

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Britain never used the G3. We had the SLR's.

Some of the weapons in your list there doesn't even exist. You should write up a list when you've been in the Special Boat Service or Special Air Service.

Really have you been in, thats really interesting?

If you have been sure about the G3

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[deleted]

What a load of sh***

You might take note that the SA80A2 was proven in 2004 to be the most reliable and accurate infantry weapon in the world, beating the FAMAS, G36, AK101 and M16 series of weapons in terms of accuracy, reliability and useability. This report (de-classified part) is published in janes defence journals and I beleive there is part of it on wikipedia. The report indicates that the SA80 can fire an average of 18791 rounds without suffering a stoppage. The only reason it sufferes stoppages is because some catering corps cook doesn't clean it properly or some idiotic marine over cleans it and uses the abbrasive materials which damage the weapon. The other good one is not filling a magazine properly.


The SAS also don't use the Colt/Armalite weapons m16/m4 as you describe. I think you will find they use the Canadian Diemaco C7/C8 with an ACOG sight on it. The reason this is used as opposed to the SA80 is because of weight, the SAS are strictly a limited offensive operations unit and thus do not require a heavy but accurate infantry weapon but something that wont slow them down when the get bumped.

Stop reading the Walter Smittey books and stop pretending you know what your talking about.

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technicly the colt rifles the sas use are not of the m series what they use are diemaco c8's and sfw's made by colt canada but they are not m4's m4's and c8's are the same rifle but do not fall under that designation the special forces weapon it is colt canadas version of the sopmod it has a slightly longer barrel then the regular c8 if they use brownings as a side arm i imagine it being a hi power which is fairly reliable

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Nice list, but there are some errors.

*The KAC SR16E3 (US Army) / KAC SR16 MOD2 (US Navy / US Marine Corps) is an Enhanced Carbine made by Knight Armament Company. The SAS and SBS use the Heckler & Koch M416 Enhanced Carbine (H&K owns Royal Ordnance and the M416 is made in Britain). Both weapons use the same 20- and 30-round magazines as the AR-15 family (M16 Rifle and M4 Carbine).

*The Colt M733 Commando is the micro-carbine version of the M16A3. It has an 11-inch barrel and a three position selector (safe / semi-auto / full auto). The SAS and SBS use the Diemaco C8 Carbine, the Canadian version of the 14.5-inch barreled Colt M4A1 fully-auto Assault Carbine.

*The Maruzen APS Type 96 is the Japanese-made airsoft version of the Accuracy International 7.62mm NATO Precision Marksman. The AI 7.62mm PM is designated the L96 Sniper Rifle in British service (who nicknamed it the "Big Green Thing", from its green plastic stock). The L96 was later replaced by the improved 7.62mm NATO L118 (based on the Accuracy International Arctic Warfare) and .338 Lapua Magnum L115 (based on the Accuracy International Arctic Warfare Magnum).

*The Colt M16A1 was the Vietnam-era version of the M16 (used from the 1960s to 1980s). It has the distinctive one-piece fat triangular "tropical" forend. It was used as part of the weapons familiarization segment of the British Jungle Warfare Course in Malaysia (which was later moved to Hong Kong). It was never used operationally by British forces, who preferred the FAL (although the Gurkhas were trained on it and it was used by Australian and New Zealander forces (ANZAC) in Vietnam alongside the FAL).

*The Diemaco M16A2 / M16A3 was the selective-fire redesign; most parts are not compatible between the M16A1 and M16A2/M16A3. It has the distinctive two-part cylindrical forend. It began service in the early- to mid- 1980s (USMC from 1982 and US Army from 1985). They have a three-position selector: The M16A2 is safe / semi-auto / 3-round burst and the M16A3 is safe / semi-auto / full auto. The M16A4 (burst) and M16A5 (full auto) are the accessory rail versions of the M16A2 and M16A3 respectively. The SAS and SBS use the C-7 version used by the Canadian armed forces.

The SA80 (Small Arms 1980) is the term for the weapons family.
*L85 IW (Individual Weapon) is the Assault Rifle.
*L86 LSW (Light Support Weapon) is the Automatic Rifle variant. It is used alongside the 7.62mm FN MAG or 5.56mm FN MINIMI.
*L22 Carbine is the cut-down Assault Carbine used by vehicle crews. It has a vertical foregrip and accessory rails on the shortened forend and uses large iron sights rather than the SUSAT scope.
*L98 is the semi-auto Cadet Rifle. The cocking handle must be pulled after every shot to cycle it.

The Browning pistol is called the L9 in British service.
*The L9 is the Inglis-manufactured Browning Mk.I pistol, based on the Browning P35. The L9 is distinctive because it has a parkerized finish rather than the blued-steel finish of the FN or Browning P35. It has either a 13-round magazine or extended 15- or 20-round magazines.
*The L9A1 is based on the post-1962 redesign of the P35 Browning. The L9 and L9A1 have no parts commonality. It has a 15-round magazine.


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You do know that a Diemaco C8 is just a Canadian built M4, right?

And for those that don't know, SLR is the British name for the FN FAL.

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There is no such thing as an "APS Type 96" except in airsoft, which is a replica of the Accuracy International L96: http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn06-e.htm

There is no difference between the SA80 and the L85A1. "SA80" is simply the experimental name for the L85, which in turn is the British Military desgination.

The reason the SAS used M16's was because they were supplied by the Americans, as were the minimi's, as said in the film. They did not use them because they are "more reliable" or because the L85 is "the worst weapon ever made".

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Hasn't the MOD spent quite a bit of money reworking, and replacing parts and mags on the L85, as well as loading ammo to minimum specs because of reliability issues?

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Yeah, it's my understanding MOD paid HK to basically rebuild the gun, which they did. In comparison tests, the L85 actualy turned out pretty damn well against the m16/m4 and AK47.

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"Yeah, it's my understanding MOD paid HK to basically rebuild the gun, which they did. In comparison tests, the L85 actualy turned out pretty damn well against the m16/m4 and AK47."

I've heard that as well. Troops who hated the first gen, love the newer versions.

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I never had a problem with the SA80/L85 but know I was in the minority amongst my mates and I undertand why people hated it. From what I gather it wasn't even on the NATO approved weapons list because of serious reliability issues.
But, since the HK modification, the weapon has consitantly out performed the main weapons of many other nations including the M16.
I just feel the poor performance of it older brother has tarnished it's reputation for good (especially amongst the squaddies that use it).

I always loved using it though and think it looks cool as f$%k!

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Actually the reason the SAS use M16's is because they require less cleaning and maintenance, are powerful and accurate and can be used alongside the 203, just for that extra punch.

And whoever said that the british has never used a G3 is full of **** and doesnt have a clue what they are talking about.

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You lot are a wunch of bankers...

You all think you know what you're talking about so for s**ts and giggles, I'll join in.

The SA-80 (L85A2) is a pretty decent weapon but, as previously mentioned, is not deemed suitable for SF use. Here's some history for you about that.

After the second world war the British infantry lay down their bolt-action L-E 303s and adopted the FN FAL (SLR) as their pimary weapon. The SAS did not follow suit. During WW2, the SAS had used mostly other weapons anyway, sten guns and old Lewis guns mounted on range-rovers... all automatic weapons. The SLR was not designed for laying down covering fire in a small group but rather for accuracy and conservation of rounds. It was also quite heavy. So, when the Americans developed the M-16 the SAS was all over it. Some mods were made and it became the principle weapon of the SAS for about 30 years. The M-16 is the most produced weapon in the world, meaning parts are easy to come by. It is easy to maintain in the field and its composite stock make it light. Disadvantages included its length (takes longer to bring to bear) and it was not as robust as the SLR (plastic). However, for the types of operations and the size of SAS teams, the M-16 was well suited and could be used on full automatic to put down fire when needed. Later, the M-16A1 was restricted to 3-round bursts due to barrel overheat but still better than the SLRs single-shot action. When the SA-80 first came into service, it was not a great weapon as mentioned in several posts so the SAS ignored it, continuing with the M-16 family.

It is only recently that the M-4 carbine has become popular with armed forces, mostly due to its decreased weight and length but it too has disadvantages, such as a poor muzzleflash deflector so it betrays the position of the shooter. I am not completely up to date with SAS weapons so I am not sure if they are using this gun as standard issue or not but I know it has been used.

The G3 rifle, made by HK, has been used by the SAS, mostly in Northern Island. The advantages of this weapon include its longer range over 5.56mm rifles but mostly its greater penetration. Many actions in NI included shooting up cars. A 5.56mm round would break up when it hit a car body panel but the 7.62mm round would go right through and kill the terrorists. There is no evidence that this weapon has been used outside of the NI Troop but there's also no reason to suppose that its benefits were not enjoyed in other theatres.

The MP5 (and Mp5K) are probably the most famous of weapons used by the SAS. Used mostly by the SP group (Counter Terrorist Squadron) this is arguably the best sub-machine gun on the planet. It's compact, light-weight, accurate and has a high rate of fire (around 930 rpm). It is also highly reliable and robust making it ideal for CT operations and other CQB.

The Browning hi-power pistol is one of the worlds most reliable 9mm pistols. Tested by the SAS it could be given hell and still fired off a shot. The only weapon to beat its reliability is the SIGSauer. I believe the SIG pistols have since found their way to being the choice for SF units and suspect that the SAS uses them heavily in certain situations. The BHP, however, has a larger mag and so may still find itself in use.

As for machine-guns... the GPMG has been the staple of many armed forces for decades and in the first Gulf War the SAS would have used them rather than the American SAW unless by some strange circumstance the Americans were outfitting the SAS. The GPMG is heavy but extremely reliable and reliability is often the SAS's top priority.

The SAS have also been known to carry a Browning 50-cal machine gun into the field though I do not remember in particular why. Since I am not within spitting distance of any of my reference books on the subject, I am going to say that Borneo was the theatre I remember this from. Brownings were often mounted on the Land rovers used by the SAS in the Gulf since their high calibre would put the fear of God into the Iraqis and could easily disable light vehicles and SCUD launchers.

Anti-Tank rockets are also often carried on patrols. Since the 66mm LAW rocket is so lightweight and easy to carry, it can be a blessing to any trooper caught in a situation. Even though it lacks the punch to take out most modern armour, it is death to any jeep or truck and a lucky shot will put light armoured vehicles out of commission as well. The larger, more powerful anti-tank rockets are all too heavy to be carried casually by a patrol and thus will only be equiped when the troop is tasked with taking out such armour. The Milan was mounted on a rail behind the front seats of the land rovers during the gulf and was instrumental in helping take out SCUD launchers. The Land Rovers were also equipped with a couple of GPMGs.

The preffered sniper-rifle of the British Army is the L-96A1, otherwise known as the Accuracy International PM Arctic Warfare. After a series of tests, this rifle (only just) won out over less expensive models and British firm AI got the contract.

Now, there are probably other often-used weapons in the SAS arsenal but I do not claim to be an SAS soldier or even an expert on their ways and means. I have done a lot of research into the SAS as I am facinated by the history of warfare so I am familiar with the unit's history. A bunch of people are probably going to have a go at me now but I don't care... I just hope that most of you find this history useful in some way.

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Was it not the air cooled Vickers mounted in pairs rather than Lewis guns? (The Vickers K or VGO).

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Yes. The Vickers K were salvaged from obsolete aircraft. The Vickers VGO was issued to the Indian Army forces as the section LMG instead of the BREN. The Ks were used in vehicle mounts on vehicles by the Long Range Desert Group, the SAS, and the Reconnaissance Corps.

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yes i no the c8 is a cdn m4 but u dont call a m4 a c8 or c8 a m4 they have diff designations sry if im picky by the way

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The M16 is significantly superior to the Diemaco C8 weapons. In a series of weapon tests the A2 failed less than the Canadian alternative. The Canadian government doesn't have enough money in their weapons program to afford the M16. The SAS is allowed whatever weapons they prefer anyways. The majority of SF CT HR teams in enemy countries use AKs.

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I've read that Colt now owns Diemaco.
And that General Dynamics now owns Colt.

And, I find it hard to believe that the Canadian Government can't afford M16s.
I'd bet the deal with Diemaco is that it's Canadian based. I understand that Diemaco components that make it to the US are sought after items. So the quality can't be that bad.

Even when the US uses a foreign designed weapon, it's often stipulated that they be built here in the US.

There may be limited runs, or early orders that are built at the original factories in the countries of origin. But any substantial contracts are filled by plants in the US.

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Colt does now own Diemaco, it's new name is "Colt Canada"

I don't know much about the superiority of either weapon compared to each other, but it's reasonable that Canada would choose the Diemaco because it is indeed Canadian. That would be for economic reasons, no doubt. Just the same, America makes manufacturers build weapons in the USA; it gives Americans jobs.

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The American government in contrast to the Canadian government spends much more on it's primary weapon. The XM8 is a prime example of that.

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Diemaco supplies the Norwegian, the Canadian, the Danish, and most other Scandinavian Armed Forces, and has been recently recorded as being the favoured weapon of the Special Air Service right now because of its durability and its reliability. The M4A1 and the C7A1 or the C8A1 are the standard issue assault rifles of the SAS right now with the Browning and the SIG-Sauer handguns at their sides.

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The American government in contrast to the Canadian government spends much more on it's primary weapon. The XM8 is a prime example of that.
-bravoech011

You have no idea what you are talking about.
The boondoggle that is the XM8 is an excellent example of "pork."
HK is sucking up defense dollars trying to pass of a lousy product.
There isn't anything it does that the AR15/M16 doesn't already do, and in some cases, it's worse. One of the biggest gripes about the M4 stems from it's bbl being too short, and the short bbl version of the XM8 is even shorter.
And as far as Canada, many of the features they've selected for their C7 and C8 M16 varients are considered superior to what the US is using.

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[deleted]

The SAS (and just about any other SOF unit in the world) could at one time have used most of the weapons you guys have listed. SOF units are required to use standard issue service rifles like line units, and most SOF units keep many weapons from many nations in their armouries to provide a maximum amount of flexibility for different missions. Depending on the theatre, conflict, and hostile forces the SAS might use an AK-47, an M16A2, a C8, or any number of other firearms.

On another note, the XM8 is 'pork' hahaha.

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SOF units are required to use standard issue service rifles like line units,

Not true I dont think you will find the SA80A2 in any numbers in either UK SF armouries

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"I dont think you will find the SA80A2 in any numbers in either UK SF armouries"

Royal Marines commandos are counted amongst special forces and use the SA80-A2 as their standard weapon - in Iraq recently, marines were required to carry two in case one failed during operations.

Let's score some cake!

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As a Royal Marine SC3 myself, I can tell you the SA80A2 is a bag *beep* and is never used.

Just like the tosh further up.

Having just been on ops in both poppy country and Iraq I carried either the M4A1 or the 203.

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"As a Royal Marine SC3 myself, I can tell you the SA80A2 is a bag *beep* and is never used."

Yeah right!

What are these guys carrying then?

http://www.royal-marines.mod.uk/rn/content.php3?page=670&gmode=quick&cat=4

The Royal Marines are elite light infantry but by no stretch of the imagination are they special forces.

They carry what they're told to carry - the L85A2.

Some sub units may still hang on to their M-16's (I think just the M16A1) and the occasional SLR but they carry the British rifle as standard.

I never fired the L85A2 (not SA80A2) so I can't comment but the L85A1 was poor...too complex and too fragile.

Loved the sight and sling though.

I would think that today's SAS would carry if not an M-16A2 then either an M4 or G36 (an Ak or AK clone perhaps on sensitive ops).
I understand that the SAS gave up their Brownings some years ago and bought the SiG P-226.

The men in B20, carried the M-16 because of its ability to take the M203. They needed maximum firepower and so half the men carried the Minimi (M249 SAW).

According to McNab's book - which I take with a healthy dose of salt - there was a general lack of kit available to the patrols. For instance they had no silenced pistols which seem essential to me.

Their comms were rubbish and they were badly briefed on the ground - their plan was to build a hide with sandbags so they loaded their rucksacks with (empty) sandbags only to find that there was little or no sand in the desert they were going to.

They consciously decided against taking sleeping bags - a quartermaster rerided one trooper for asking for an arctic bag saying he was going to a (presumably) hot desert!
So much for the legacy of North Africa!

The whole patrol concept on foor was ill-conceived from the get go. It was McNab's decison (according to his book) and he got it badly wrong.
He just wasn't thinking when he planned this mission.

He alludes to another patrol that made the same mistakes and just got back on the chopper when they hit the landing site.

A cynic would say McNab wanted the aptrol to go on so he could write his book!

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He just wasnt thinking when he planned this mission...

Its amazing how many people think they could plan and execute a mission better than the SAS. Mistakes happen, extraordinary circumstances can happen. Stop banging on about how McNab was wrong for doing this or taking that, or not taking jeeps. NOBODY repeat NOBODY that isnt in the SAS or intelligence knows what went on and why things was planned the way they was. So all you sofa soldiers dont sit there telling us why the SAS and the british goverment did everything wrong, just because they didnt do what YOU would of done.

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The XM8 is worlds better in contrast to the M16 weapons in so many ways. I do not understand how you could first insult me then say there are no improvements. The American GI can for one not have to worry about his weapon jamming up when he needs to fire it and the weapon can handle everything the desert can dish out. Chaos Bringer have you not heard of the easy dis assembly in a fraction of the time or perhaps the ambidextrous operation and of course not the extreme accuracy of the weapon. You are wrong. H&K has always turned out results that run circles around their competitors.

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bravoech011, If I placed an M16, and a C8 in front of you, could you even tell the difference?
What makes the XM8 superior to the M16?
Its it because it's new?
It's plastic?
It has a piston?
It's HK?
American weapons are great, Canadian weapons are lousy (even when they're American weapons), so German weapons are the best ever?

The only difference between the XM8 and the M16 is that gas system. And the M16 can be had with a piston in place of the direct impingement setup. BFD.
Furthermore, why would you want to buy something that is equal, or at best slightly better than what you already have, when you could use the funds for something more useful?
Ever heard of a budget? Don't you think that there are things as important, or even more so than individual weapons? Does money grow on trees?

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Already you have passed over differences regarding these weapons performance that I have mentioned. The basic needs for an infantry rifle are usually a lightweight, accurate, durable, and efficient firearm that is easily taken apart. The C7 C8 weapons are not stronger in any of these areas and that is the bottom line. They take longer to strip for cleaning and repairing, they jam more often many times because of their heavy weight barrels which are easily weathered, and on top of that they are not as accurate as the M16 XM8 weapons. The accessories for the C7 C8 weapons are cheap and are easily broken. The standard mag for these weapons is a shoddy and easily breakable component.

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Another growing favorite for the SAS is the FN P90, you can read more about this gun at http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg13-e.htm .

Reliability is very important and as discussed above the L85 is not.


Although they do not tend to advertise it the SF do use AK's quite a bit, and rightfully so. The AK may not look very pleasing to the eye or all that accurate they are reliable in all climates and are what you could call truly solider proof.
In fact the VC were known too bury their AK's in rice patty's, pick them up without cleaning then and they would function flawlessly.

I think the US military would be better off with a M-16 AK47 hybrid using the best features of both designs.

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You can run over an AK with a Humvee and then fire it effectivly lol...

But seriously, why would the SAS switch to anothe bullpup weapon like th P90?The colt weapons are more proven and effective...

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TBH lads, SAS would be using the L85 more than anything. Thing with SAS, especially in Iraq and NI is they've been mixing in with the squaddies just like everyone else. Sure, they might use an AK, but there's paper work that needs to be done for things like that. L85 and SFW are definately preferable.

As for the P90. Not likely. MOD wouldn't be dishing out for guns as expensive as these which use ammo that none of the coalition forces are using. You guys have got to remember, these governments don't buy guns for how amazing they are. They buy for the deal.

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The P90 is not a bullpup weapon. The magazine goes into the top. I'm sure nobody cares anyway.

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Dude, seriously, just stop.
The P90 is a bullpup.
By definition, a bullpup's barrel group is moved well back into the stock and action and magazine are placed behind the trigger assembly.

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Yes the p90 is a bullpup weapon.
I think the P90 is a solid weapon. It's light, can carry 50 round mags, and I've heard its pretty accurate. Yes the cons about it is that it uses 5.7x28mm rounds, which are separetely different from the other common military weapon rounds so I don't see this being used other than as a PDW for vechical crews or special security forces.
I'd personally prefer this rather than the MP-7

BTW does anybody here know much of the Mark 16 SCAR-L?

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The heavy SCAR Rifle?

It's got nothing to do with Bravo Two Zero ;-)

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The P90s entire action is not behind the trigger. The fire stabilizer, extractor, and ejector are above it. What's a "barrel group"? I have to know.

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The Diemaco C8s were also brought to Britain becouse it is Canadian, Canada is part of our Commonwealth like Australia and New Zealand.

Australia has a new rifle called the AICW made by Metalstorm Inc, Its basically a Steyr AUG with a three shot 40mm Grenny Launcher on the top.

I like the CETME/HK Series rifles since they use Blowback instead of the more common gas system becouse there is more firepower and the barel is easier to clean. The FAMAS Bullpup is my favourite too,Also uses blowback and has a high rate of fire of 1000RPM!.

The Australian SAS used SLRs with shortened barrels in the Vietnam War, They even used the Owen SMG instead of the M4 rifles too.

Instead of the BREN, They even had a full auto SLR designated the L2A1 that had a heavier barrel and a bipod for the SAW role.

The FNC is a boss weapon for SF units, Its just a 5.56mm version of the FN FAL

Anyone seen the FN F2000 bullpup?

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yeah i've seen it i've heard its actually quite heavy compared to you'r standard rifle i like the look all bullpup configs look cool to me and they have an advantage of shorter for same power. though i've heard bullpups are a bitch to reload when prone

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Canada is no longer a part of the Commonwealth; Canada signed a constitution in 1982, becoming a sovereign country. Whilst we still participate in the "Commonwealth Games", this is just for old-times sake, and not a requirement, per se. As a former member of Baden Powell's Scouts and the former Canadian Airborne Regiment, and present when the C7 and C8 were introduced, I have to say I prefered the C1 and C2, the semi and auto versions of the FN FAL product. 7.62mm long-round firearms capable of stopping Johnny Red in his tracks. Johnny Red was a nasty old fellow who wanted to take over the world, but got initially stopped in Poppy Land and later by the Scorpions, in Berlin, with their song "Winds of Change". Vive Le Quebec

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well canadian variants of the m16 series (c7 c7a1 c7a2 c8 c8a2 c7ct the list can go on and on) have a colt canada logo on it so you can tell the difference

canadian weapons are not lousy its the same damn rifle just goes by a different designation and is made in ontario canada the only problem i discovered with the c7 coming from my uncle who is a MP for the CF was that i cant remember when exactly i think in desert storm possibly early in the war in afghanistan the troops were issued thermold magazines that warped in the heat so you couldent load rounds into it and the elcan sight the CF uses has something in the sight i dunno what its called but if the sight breaks the whole building/area has to be evacuated and call for hazmat (this was told to me by my frnd who is a reserve infantry soldier)

and...when u think about money is made of paper so it kinda does grow on trees:P

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The M4 costs something like $300 to manifacture whereas the diemaco c8 costs something like $2000 dollars to make. There are significant differences too

1) Diemaco is not limited to the 1/3 shots, but has 1/continuous
2) The main body material is made from a stronger metal and is thus structurally stronger than the m4
3) The telescopic butt is longer.
4) Has a more ergonomically shaped hand guard made from improved plastics.
5) I beleive it has a different sight rail and the ones with iron sights have a different shape iron sight.
6) The barrel is hammer forged and therefor less likely to overheat and bend when used constantly. I also beleive the barrel is heavier than that of the m4.
7) The Rifling is different, I beleive it is 1/7 as opposed to the 1/9 used for longer barrels,this means the round will have the same muzzle velocity
8) The barrel bulges out at the end, again making it less prone to overheating and allowing it to be used in a support role where you wish to put down as many rounds as possible to scare the living willies out of the enemy.


I'm pretty sure that there is more but I cannot think of them at the moment..

You should also note that the wikipedia description of the diemaco c8 sfw is inncorrect, the buttstock only has 3 settings, not the 4 described.

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he SAS/SBS use Diemaco C8's and SFW's. They used M16A2's in the past, but moved away from them as soon as the Diemaco's came out, because the M16 is a poor weapon. It isn't reliable, and it's prone to breaking up. Same goes for the M4A1.

Where did you get that particular tit bit mate? Thats quite interesting!

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I was in the TA and learnt a little bit about weapons etc. Most defence information is obtainable on the internet.

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I once had a little chat with my PSI in the TA and he was a big fan of the SLR, favouring it for the higher stopping power, and this is coming from an Infantry soldier who has served in Northern Ireland and is also a qualified sniper instructor, the SA80 being of a smaller calibre.
I don't get why the SA80 is slagged off LRC but people who haven't even handled it, the A2 version is respected for being a reliable and accurate weapon, personally I love it still, the accuracy with the SUSAT fitted although being oldskool I did like firing it with the ironsights,

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Yes, I too am worried about my rifle "breaking up" in the battlefield. This is why I choose the less expensive C7 so I have more security in knowing that the weapon can't get anyone better than me.

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I have more security in knowing that the weapon can't get anyone better than me.

LOL like your confidence.


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That doesn't make any sense.

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C7 so I have more security in knowing that the weapon can't get anyone better than me.

the weapon can't get anyone better than me.

If thats not confidence I dont know what is!

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You do realize it was sarcastic don't you? I guess I don't know with a name like joshstonerr.

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Well I am sorry for my misunderstanding of you intent. The misunderstanding stemed from the fact that I had read a few quite good posts from you before and therefore, assumed the best.

Obviously now I can see I was wrong and wont make the same mistake again.

My name is my name! I cant find any suggestion in it of congenital stupidity if you can Bravoech011 please enlighten me!


I mean on the same basis I could say Bravo ech could indicate, Second Echelon, but whats the point of getting into an insulting match, how adult is that.

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I dislike the famas new type trigger guard.

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Walt;p The FAMAS G2 is a big improvement over its predecessor, especially with the FELIN system the French are developing. Yeah, I play counter-strike, but I'm also a soldier in the Royal Engineers and consequently have handled weapons.
The SA80's ok in my opinion, though it is getting a bit obsolete, as are all 5.56 mm assault rifles.
The safety sucks too, first time i picked one up I expected it to be on the fire selector, but its a *beep* push button near the foregrip. The Ironsights are decent enough, pretty much identical to those on the M16 or C7. The ejector port and cocking mechanism is a bit more complicated too, NSP's practically require a degree in engineering if you've never been taught lol.
We should be getting a new rifle in a few years anyway, my moneys on the G36 or FN2000.

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i'm into airsoft and mainly use either my MP5 a4 or my G36C, came up against a dude with a SAW once, didnt know specifically which type but still, sawed me in half. we actually had a discussion like this there because the guys were trying to use SAS insignia's, BDU's, and weaponry, do any of them use MPK's (not the WW2 version, the one like a AK) in the SAS do you know?

"Squad Leader: Maniac is responding with a scornful remark."

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Airsoft guns can be fired fully automatic.
The SA-80 is the better gun overrall compared to the m16 actually.

In March 2005, the L85A2 was put through its paces against the M16, M4, AK-101, FAMAS G2 and G36E modern rifles. It outperformed all of them in accuracy (even without the SUSATs), reload speed (physically changing magazine on the move and static) and usability in urban and close-quarters combat (because of its shorter overall length and the ability to affix a bayonet). A2 upgraded versions also have a higher muzzle velocity. The AK-101 won reliability on multiple terrain, weather and climatic scenarios. The ranks in the test were:

SA80
G36E
M16 family
AK-101
FAMAS G2

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To set the record straight, Diemaco makes both the M16A2 and the C7. They are the same weapon. Colt makes the M4/M4A1 due to a settlement with Diemaco. The SAS and SBS use the C7/C8 models and prefer Diemaco's patented accessory rails rather than the US's KAC RAS/RIS rails.

The SA-80 IW was recently upgraded by Heckler & Koch to the E2 pattern and has been recorded as having a much greater reliability. Most British units are equipped with 1 Minimi and 1 Light Support Weapon [an SA-80 automatic rifle variant] per section; the LSW can double as a Designated Marksman rifle for close support sniping.

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