MovieChat Forums > Waco: The Rules of Engagement (1997) Discussion > Schumer (and colleagues) blindly watch m...

Schumer (and colleagues) blindly watch murder on TV screens


Charles Schumer's comments that the FBI "did not fire a shot" before the fire are chilling in the face of the dozens of clips clearly showing automatic gunfire by agents--some firing while retreating, into the dining area where most of the children were and which was on fire at the time. This is cold blooded murder. The cynanide gas effects on children, the reports of incediary flashes which caused "fireballs" to travel through the complex igniting the blaze--written off by FBI and even Congressional "experts" as "replections of light off a reflective surface"--which then showed up as a heat source on infrared!!! This is damning, scary devastating stuff. Do not ever forget the people who caused this...Janet Reno, the ATF and FBI, and (the Major-General)WESLEY CLARK who planed the strategy of the operations for the local army group which supplied the tanks. Clark is now possibly running for President, for pete's sake. Is there to be no justice for the victims of these murders?

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You must not be very flexible in mind to blindly believe what this documentary told you. Also, did you even pay attention to it? It was tear gas, not cyanide that was used. The vehicles pumping it in were armored recovery vehicles (ARVs), not tanks. The thermal blooms were most likely rounds of armor piercing incindiary (API, fired by the Davidians) hitting the ARVs and the ground around them and then igniting. Come on, there is not even a firing port in the rear of those ARVs and that area is the engine compartment. How is anyone going to shoot from back there?
So please, go read some books and brush up on military hardware if you are going to slander someone, especially the government. Ignorance is a poor excuse for irrational and emotional outcrys about supposed excesses of law enforcement.

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CS gas(actually an airborne powder) produces cyanide gas when it is burned. The propelant used to carry CS powder burns roughly like kerosene when dried in surfsces(like a church.

The most disturbing thing that I saw was the SAC telling the press, when they asked about them gasing children, that they hoped that the parental concerns of the Davidians make them surrender rather than subject thier kids to further gasing.

So, in the USA, it is acceptable to torture the kiddies with chemical weapons, to make the parents comply with the wishes of the state....nice. BTW, the way you talk about 'tear gas' suggests that you have never been exposed to CS. Most Vets have been gased in Boot Camp with a diluted form of CS, it is not mearly Tear gas.

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CS gas is the common name for 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile (also called o-Chlorobenzylidene Malononitrile) (chemical formula: C10H5ClN2), a substance that is used as a riot control agent and is claimed to be non-lethal. CS was discovered by two Americans, Ben Carson and Roger Staughton, in 1928, and the chemical gets its name from the first letters of the scientists' surnames.[4] The compound is actually a solid at room temperature, though it is used as an aerosol.

CS was developed and tested secretly at Porton Down in Wiltshire, England, in the 1950s and 1960s. CS was used first on animals, then subsequently on British Army servicemen volunteers. Notably, CS has a limited effect on animals due to "under-developed tear-ducts and protection by fur".[5]

In the Waco Siege, CS was dissolved in the organic solvent dichloromethane (also known as methylene chloride). When the volatile dichlormethane evaporated, the CS crystallized with the dichlormethane molecules as an aerosol.[2] Another method typically used for grenades is to combine CS with a pyrotechnic composition which burns to generate an aerosol of CS-laden smoke. As the smoke disperses, tiny CS crystals 'ride' the smoke molecules to their targets, where they affect the eyes, nose, throat and skin causing extreme irritation.

These were quotes from wikapedia. If cyanide gas is present anywhere near death is imminent for friend and foe.

This is cyanide gas:
A gas chamber is an apparatus for killing, consisting of a sealed chamber into which a poisonous or asphyxiant gas is introduced. The most commonly used poisonous agent is hydrogen cyanide; carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide have also been used.

Method, when using cyanide
Generally speaking, in the United States the execution protocol is as follows: First, the execution technician will place a quantity of potassium cyanide (KCN) pellets into a compartment directly below the chair in the chamber. The condemned person is then brought into the chamber and strapped into the chair, and the airtight chamber is sealed. At this point the execution technician will pour a quantity of concentrated sulfuric acid (H2SO4) down a tube that leads to a small holding tank directly below the compartment containing the cyanide pellets. The curtain is then opened, allowing the witnesses to observe the inside of the chamber. The prison warden will then ask the condemned individual if he or she wishes to make a final statement. Following this, the executioner(s) will throw a switch/lever to cause the cyanide pellets to drop into the sulfuric acid, initiating a chemical reaction that generates hydrogen cyanide (HCN) gas:

2KCN (s) + H2SO4 (aq) → 2HCN (g) + K2SO4
The gas is visible to the condemned, and he/she is advised to take several deep breaths to speed unconsciousness in order to prevent unnecessary suffering. Most prisoners, however, try to hold their breath.[4] Death from hydrogen cyanide is usually painful and unpleasant, although theoretically the condemned individual should lose consciousness before dying. The chamber is then purged of the gas through special scrubbers, and must be neutralized with anhydrous ammonia (NH3) before it can be opened. Guards wearing oxygen masks remove the body from the chamber. Finally, the prison doctor examines the individual in order to officially declare that he or she is dead and release the body to the next of kin.

One of the problems with the gas chamber is the inherent danger of dealing with such a toxic gas. Anhydrous ammonia is used to cleanse the chamber after cyanide gas has been used:

HCN + NH3 → NH4+ + CN-.
The anhydrous ammonia used to clean the chamber afterwards, and the contaminated acid that must be drained and disposed of, are both very poisonous.

So to be sure there was no cyanide gas at Waco.

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I must admit, I wasn’t open minded about the Branch Davidian operation until late 1994. I figured the media would not miss an opportunity to dump on government law enforcement if they were out of line. Then came a newspaper column written by a pundit I respected. He pointed out DAVID KORESH JOGGED DAILY, AND LAW ENFORCEMENT COULD HAVE PICKED HIM UP AT ANY TIME. I hadn’t yet seen “The Long Kiss Goodnight,” so I wasn’t familiar with a “fundraiser,” a high profile operation to increase the annual operating budget. However, it’s quite clear the Waco operation was an ATF “fundraiser,” and an illegal one at that. After that, I read everything I could find on Waco. I watched over forty hours of Congressional Hearings, and I came out of it hating the FBI Hostage Rescue Team. WHAT A JOKE. These are the same group of clowns that incinerated MOVE families in Philadelphia and blew out Vicky Weaver’s brains at Ruby Ridge. If anything, “Waco: The Rules of Engagement” is GENTLE to the FBI HRT. Nowhere to be found is Congressman Sonny Bono’s exchange with an FBI official that the government SEALED the only safe exit to the compound before firing ferret rounds of tear gas into the compound. A tear gas which, by the way, is illegal to use in combat. “Waco: …” doesn’t doesn’t show Congressman Bob Barr’s statement that one of the photographs showed a nine year old girl dead from a ferret round jammed into her chest. “Waco …” doesn’t present Barr’s presentation of photographs showing armored vehicles crushing the rear of the compound out of sight from news cameras, or that some bodies were found mangled from tank treads. “Waco: “ doesn’t show FBI HRT field officer Jeffrey Jamar admitting the FBI never treated the operation as a “hostage rescue. And “Waco …” never shows that the government repeatedly destroyed and concealed evidence sympathetic to the Davidians., including the steel door which would have proved who fired first.

The government continues to persecute the Davidians convicted of “bringing firearms to a crime scene,” the charge which a corrupt federal judge turned into 45 year sentences for each. With the current revelations of government use of torture against “terrorists,” do you believe these men are being fairly treated?

You believe what you want. However, if the FBI HRT ever comes for you, I suggest you either go quietly or bring marshmallows.

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In reply to CTroy73:

One of the armored vehicles caught on film crushing cars in front of the compound is a modified M-60 CEV and that is most definitively a tank. No artillery shells were fired from them however, the tanks were in all likeliness used to intimidate besieged Davidians and as "bunker-busters" during the final assault. Unfortunately the CEV's destroyed a lot of evidence in the process.

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did you even pay attention to it? It was tear gas, not cyanide that was used.

perhaps you should as well, cyanide is a byproduct of cs gas when combusted. Anyway cs is capable of imobilizing and indeed killing people.

"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different."

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INDEED! YOU ARE AMAZING. ALSO, DID YOU EVEN PAY ATTENTION TO IT? THE RESULT OF IGNITED CS IS CYANIDE! duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

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THATS WHAT I SAID!!!

"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different."

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"Come on, there is not even a firing port in the rear of those ARVs and that area is the engine compartment. How is anyone going to shoot from back there?":

The gunmen were walking behind the armored vehicle, using it as a shield.

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CTroy73:You must not be very flexible in mind to blindly believe what this documentary told you. Also, did you even pay attention to it? It was tear gas, not cyanide that was used.

LoL where do you get off telling people to pay attention?Criticising people for blindly believing this docu, when you didnt even bother to pay attention, yourselfe!Bloody kids, next time ask for permition from your parents before you surf the web.No suprise you havent responded to any of these post's, you got pwnt.

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[deleted]

I'd just like to point out that in fact the FBI did NOT fire a single shot during the entire debacle. The ATF however, did. But they are different departments, therefore not the same and thus Schumer's comment was correct. As for the fire, it's rather clear it was started by the Davidians, from the physical evidence found at the site (traces of lighter fuel on followers' clothing etc) and the recordings of people within the building talking of fetching fuel and hay to start a fire. The building was also established early on in negotiations as being a fire hazard.

Now I'm not saying the FBI was innocent at all. They handled the situational very badly, just as the Russian military did when the school in Beslan was besieged this year. However, it is undeniable that the followers of David Koresh were able to leave at any time of their choosing. Due to their faith and abject (and wrongful) belief that Koresh was their messiah, they decided to stay within the building.

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CTroy73 – the Thermal blooms from the back of the “tanks” were explicitly assigned to the exhaust. The other hot spots occurred from the side of one of the “tanks” and at miscellaneous points around the compound. These occurred at a rate of six events per second in an area of no more than one foot square. You suggest these were APIs fired by the Davidians from within the compound. Now it simply goes beyond the bounds of credibility that they were able to fire off these APIs six times a second, repeatedly hitting the same spot with pin point accuracy, whilst they were standing in the midst of a towering wall of flame and yet still manage to miss a bloody big “tank”. And then our “experts” can’t identify a bullet from an incendiary device. Perhaps the kind of books you’re reading are interfering with your good old fashioned common sense.

JabbaHutt444 – See the above. I think it’s now pretty self evident that the FBI did in fact fire many “shots” blindly into the compound. Further, they poured gallons of highly flammable propellants into the compound, and spilled fuel tanks in the process of doing this. The shot of an eight year old girl who had clearly died horrendously from Cyanide gas (a bi-product of burning CS) is gut churning. Unlike the Beslan scenario, the Davidians, though mad as hatters, were not threatening anyone, least of all their own children. Who did the FBI think they were helping? It’s inconceivable that they could not have foreseen this outcome.

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[deleted]

they bulldozed it so soon so they could complete the cover up of mass murder. im glad you have questions about this. i can answer any questions anyone has about waco. if i dont know the answers i can find out. i lost a friend at waco, jimmy riddle. he was the one who was run over by the tank at the rear of the building. ive spent the last 12 years researching waco and ive forgotten more than most will ever know about the mass murder and cover up by the federal government. anyone with questions,email me at [email protected] . ill be more than happy to converse with you.

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Rightly or wrongly, Schumer comes across as a heartless pig-headed vindictive scumbag in the film, and it turns my stomach every time I see him on TV now, even when I agree with what he has to say.

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Amen!



😎

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[deleted]

he and his sister were from asheville....im from asheville....i knew him from there......NC

"The things you own end up owning you."

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[deleted]

SIMPLY...YOU ARE AMAZING!!!

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Your post is completely debateable. It's not clear that the fire was started by the Davidians .... lighter fluid, kerosene fuel, etc was used to light lanterns when the governemt continuously cut the electricity to Mt Carmel. Easily knocked over by the invading tanks.

I listened to the tapes with skeptic ears, especially when there is a transcript that accompanies it. Of course you are going to hear what you're reading. That's what happened during the trial of the Davidians and during the civil suit. The gov't hired a specialist for $75,000 to clean up the tapes and transcribe them. You think he's NOT going to be biased?

The followers couldn't and wouldn't leave. The parents were told that they (the children) would be sent to family members. They were sent out of Mt Carmel with the names and numbers of these family members. What did the gov't do? Put them in foster care, fed them candy, & soda. Basically, everything that goes against the Davidian belief.

The elderly that left were immediately handcuffed and incarcerated. We're talking about 60 - 70 year old men and women. After this, no one wanted to leave. They felt safer in their home then being sent out into Babylon. IF anyone walked outside they were met with ferrets. They were ordered to NOT leave the center during the final days of the siege. This was reinforced with the serpentine wire that was placed around Mt Carmel. WHAT!?! You think that was placed there to keep people OUT?! LOL It's quite the contrary.

Whoever wrote in one of these threads that no Davidians died, except maybe one during the initial siege, needs to do their research.

Peter Gent 24 - murdered by the ATF on the water tower
Peter Hipsman 28 - murdered by the ATF inside the center by an ATF bullet
Perry Jones 64 - succumbed to his bullet wound received by the ATF during the first shots
Michael Schroeder 29 - executed by the ATF while trying to re-enter Mt Carmel to be with Kathy & the kids
Jaydean Wendell 34 - murdered by the ATF while nursing her baby
Winston Blake 28 - murdered by the ATF while sitting on his bed eating

The Davidians had the right to defend themselves as Wayne Martin stated during the initial 911 call. Which is another point. The ATF had a command PR center all set up with computers, phones, video & camera equipment. Yet, they were lacking in communications between themselves and Sheriff Lynch?!? Speaking of video equipment ... where DID the stills and videos go of the raid? If the gov't had nothing to fear then why destroy the crime scene & evidence surrounding it. Where's the front door?!?

Why the refusal to allow an impartial negotiator to enter the situation?? Why not arrest David while he was jogging (Which he did every morning) or during the weekly trip to Wal-Mart? Why not arrest him the week before when they were at Mt Carmel shooting targets? After all, the warrant was for David and David alone ... no one else. Agent Robert Rodriguez was a familiar face at the Center. He told his superiors the element of surprise was lost. He begged Sarabyn. He ignored his pleas. Sharon Wheeler tipped off the press just a day or so before the raid... why was the hospital contacted by the ATF regarding how many beds were available for burn victims? ... hmmm ...

The gassing ... the gov't knew full well that there was a school bus buried. This was the tornado shelter that could be accessed by the trap door inside. First place that's gassed?!? Knowing full well that this would be one of the first places the women and children would flee, not to mention that there aren't masks available for children and infants. The davidians tried to fit the children with masks but they wouldn't fit.

The Davidians were not going to be allowed to live, cut and dry. An ATF agent was given an order to kill David on site. As soon as he opened that door "SHOWTIME". The ATF wanted to perform a dynamic entry raid.

Who cares how many guns they had. They weren't even all in the Center the morning of the raid. Paul Fatta had a majority of them with him. He left for a gun show that morning in Austin. The amount of guns they did have were less than what one avid gun owner might have.

While I admit that things should've been handled differently I don't think the Davidians had a choice. As soon as David poked his head out the door stating "Wait. Let's talk. There's women & children here." The ATF opened fire.

THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK! Ummmmm .. a tank is entering the center, inserting CS gas, removing any possible exit ... executing anyone that attempts to leave out the back, out of the media's sight ... nope doesn't look like an attack to me ... more like assassination.

One more thing, the FBI sent in a video camera and blank tapes so that Steve could tape the families still inside. These tapes were sent back with the interviews of families and children. Why were they not aired like the FBI said they would allow? They knew that once the American public saw them, the tides of opinion would change & sympathy/support would surpass that which was shown The Weaver Family.

The American public was and still is being spoon-fed by the media what the government wants us to think. Shame on me - shame on us for not asking and seeking the truth then.

IN MEMORIUM (*annotes families || +annotates child Reno was protecting)

*Kathy Andrade 24
+Chanel Andrade 1
Jennifer Andrade 19

George Bennett 35
Susan Benta 31
Winston Blake 28
Mary Jean Borst 49
Pablo Cohen 38
Abedowalo Davies 30
Shari Doyle 18 (Father Clive survived)
Beverly Elliot 30

*Evette Fagan 32
Doris Fagan 51

Lisa Marie Farris 24
Raymond Friesen 76
Peter Gent 24
Sandra Hardial 27

*Zilla Henry 55
Vanessa Henry 19
Phillip Henry 22
Paulina Henry 24
Stephen Henry 26
Diana Henry 28

*Novellette Hipsman 36
Peter Hipsman 28

Floyd Houtman 61
Sherri Jewell 43

*David M. Jones 38 (Rachel's brother)
Perry Jones 64 (Rachel's father)
David Koresh 33
Rachel Koresh 24
+Cyrus Koresh 8
+Star Koresh 6
+Bobbie Lane Koresh 2

*Jeffery Little 32
Nicole Gent Little 24
+unborn child
+Dayland Gent 3
+Page Gent 1

Livingston Malcolm 26

*Diane Martin 41
Wayne Martin, Sr. 42 (wife Sheila & 2 children left during the siege)
+Lisa Martin 13
+Sheila Martin, Jr. 15
Anita Martin 18
Wayne Martin, Jr. 20

*Julliete Martinez 30
+Crystal Martinez 3
+Isaiah Martinez 4
+Joseph Martinez 8
+Abigail Martinez 11
+Audrey Martinez 13

John-Mark McBean 27
Bernadette Monbelly 31

*Rosemary Morrison 29
+Melissa Morrison 6

Sonia Murray 29
Theresa Nobrega 48
James Riddle 32
Rebecca Saipaia 24

*Steve Schneider 43
Judy Schneider 41
+Mayanah Schneider 2

Michael Schroeder 29 (wife Kathy and kids left during the siege)

Clifford Sellors 33

*Scott Kojiro Sonobe 35
Floracita Sonobe 34

*Gregory Summers 28
+Aisha Gyrfas Summers 17
+unborn child
+Startle Summers 1

*Lorraine Sylvia 40
+Rachel Sylvia 12
+Hollywood Sylvia 1

*Michelle Jones Thibodeau 18 ("husband" David survived the fire)
+Serenity Jones 4
+Chica Jones 2
+Little One Jones 2

*Neal Vaega 38
Margarida Vaega 47

*Mark H. Wendell 40
Jaydean Wendell 34

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Unfortunately, we see that law enforcement has not learned the lessons of these tragedies.

Look at how they responded to the Boston Marathon bombing suspects - locking down entire neighborhoods and conducting warrantless searches at gunpoint.

Look at how they responded in the Dormer case - blindly shooting up several innocent people's cars in a state of panic, and then forming a circular firing squad around a cabin and firing tens of thousands of unaimed rounds into it, just to stop one man. I'm surprised that dozens of officers didn't end up getting shot by other cops in that situation, just as several of the ATF agents at the Davidian compound apparently shot other agents.

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Amen and RIP all of the victims of this Government Murder.



😎

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Of course there is no justice. The victims are whites and Christians, the favorite victims of liberals. So nobody cares if they are killed because of political correctness.

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over 50% of the davidians were of color........

"The things you own end up owning you."

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Amen!!



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"He's dead!"

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TAKE NOTE
charles schummer is co sponsor of HR 297 a very dangerous firearms law,.
this man sided with the FBI at all waco hearings.
do you want this same fbi , the fbi from waco and ruby ridge, the fbi that creats hate groups,nazi demonstration organized and led by fbi,agents,. has been exposed over and over
do you want this same dangerous group to decide wether or not you can legally buy a firearm?
the fbi have shown themselves over and over to be a terrorist group,.

Michael

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AMEN!



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Schumer is a liar! This was murder by a Democrat controlled Federal Government, pure and simple. And unfortunately there will probably never by justice for the victims.



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"He's dead."

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