'massacre'

I hate IMDB. Too bad I can't delete my account.

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I'd like to know how you figured out what congress couldn't and state firmly that the Davidians fired first.

Also, why would the Davidians come out? If they would have the government would continue treating them as unfairly as they did throughout the entire raid.

They were told by God that they were to stay in the compound. Karesh firmly believed that God was telling him to stay there. I'm not at all saying that I believe this is true, I'm saying it's not for me to say whether or not it's true.

If God told you do something, I'm guessing you'd probably do it. And it's not for any member of any law enforcement team to say whether or not you actually are talking to God.

And if you want to talk about the entire thing being avoided? Why didn't the DATF respond to Karesh's earlier invitations to investigate and search his weapons inventory? The DATF wanted their heroic raid and the publicity that ensued. If they really wanted to avoid the entire incident they would have responded to his earlier invitation and they wouldn't have had to drive up agents in unarmored cattle trailers to scare the daylights out of some religious group.

The entire scale and ferocity was completely unnecessary. I don't know how you can so unwaveringly support the terrorism tactics of the DATF on this one.

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based on the evidence now available it is pretty clear that the ATF police fired first and that the F-B-I tried to cover up the mess by making sure that few if any would get out alive. then there was clearly a cover up after the fact.

we cant imagine what its like to be rushed, fired at and watch family and friend be slaughtered in front of you.

i don't agree with the davidians religious views but that doesn't change the fact that they were slaughtered like animals...then demonized by the press...and till this day...no one has been brought to justice.

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First of all, there's a convincing argument that the ATF fired first. Second of all, there's no need to excuse the Davidians entirely while condemning the government. They shouldn't have put their children in that situation, especially near a man who seemed to have a fondness for underage girls.

So what?

Law enforcement is supposed to be a superior breed of person, who can be trusted to have guns and use them sometimes lethally. The falty warrants, the shots fired, the lethal levels of CS gas, the strong evidence that people fleeing were shot at INCLUDING on the day of the fire, the strong suggestion that the CS gas caused the fire, the quick disposal of the crime scene post-fire, the refusal to grant any media access, the ignoring theological scholars who could have helped the FBI communicate on Koresh's Biblical ideas, tapes mysteriously lost, the refusal to let fire trucks through -- which alone is enough to make LEOs criminally negligent, I would say manslaughter at least...etc. How many examples do you need?

It's not about who the Branch Davidians were, it's about what was done to them. And that was murder.

The Weavers were paranoid racists. But the FBI shot their son in the back as he was fleeing. The former has nothing to do with the murderous negligence of the latter.

No excuses. Not for these people we're supposed to respect and trust.

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Well, if I'm at home and see a couple of truckloads of armed men running towards my house with guns blazing, I sure as hell wouldn't send my kids out to them.

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You can't expect the FBI or the BATF to do nothing if they're taking heavy fire from a building.

Take a look at the vehicles the ATF officers are taking cover behind. If the Davidians were firing AK-47s, AR-15s and 50Cal machine guns, as the ATF suggests, then those vehicles would be getting ripped apart and the officers hiding behind them would be dead. 7.62 and 50cal rounds go through vehicles. They can penetrate engine blocks. The ATF arrived in thin skinned vehicles that offered little protection. They were in cattle trailers that were covered with tarps. If the Davidians were setting up an ambush, as the ATF suggests, then most of those ATF officers would be dead.

Notice the row of fuel tanks behind the ATF officers. If a hail of gunfire was coming from Mount Carmel Center, would there not be a good chance that those fuel tanks would be hit by bullets? Would they not explode?

Davidian survivors claim the helicopters fired first.

http://www.carolmoore.net/waco/waco-helicopter.html

Thirteen Davidian Survivors Claim They Saw Firing or Evidence of Firing
Marjorie Thomas testified under oath at trial that she and two other women near their third floor window saw a helicopter approaching the building with a person hanging out. As the helicopter drew nearer, several bullets came through the window, flying over the womens' heads.
Kathryn Schroeder testified under oath at trial that she saw bullet holes in the ceiling of the four story tower, holes that could only have been made from shooting from the sky.
Kevin Whitecliff stated at allocution before sentencing: "There were three or four helicopters buzzing around shooting at people. I thought I was going to die."
Rita Riddle told reporters in March, 1993, "I heard them spraying the building when they went over," and stated in a signed affidavit that she saw a bullet come down through the ceiling from the sky.
Clive Doyle has testified before Congress and written in an affidavit that Winston Blake was killed from a bullet that, from the trajectory through the wall, only could have come from a helicopter. (Jaime Castillo in a statement to Texas Rangers and David Thibodeau before Congress and in a signed affidavit make the same claim.) Doyle also states that he himself saw a helicopter directly above the swimming pool.
Renos Avraam stated at allocution that BATF came in "with helicopters blazing. Davy Aguilera, he was firing one of them. He ain't going to deny it. Helicopters blazing." (Both Clive Doyle and David Thibodeau have testified that Avraam told them he was in the back of the building and saw the firing himself.)
Derek Lovelock told attorney Jack Zimmermann that he heard helicopters and saw bullets come down through the ceiling of the first floor, one story cafeteria at the back of the building.
Catherine Matteson claims that one or more helicopters circled the building, firing at both the front and the back, and that she had to fall to the floor to avoid the bullets coming through the roof.
Annetta Richards claims she saw bullets come down from above as the helicopters were flying overhead.
Gladys Ottman makes claims similar to those of Matteson and Richards.
Davidian Child: Psychologist Bruce D. Perry, who interviewed Davidian children who left Mount Carmel after the raid, described a child drawing a picture of a house beneath a rainbow. The child put bullet holes in the roof of the four story tower.

http://reason.com/archives/1999/10/04/what-happened-at-waco/2

Reason: What do you think happened at the front door? What was your experience?

Thibodeau: I was in the cafeteria area. When I started to hear the helicopters, David came downstairs. There were a lot of people with him. David said this, and I will never forget this, "They’re coming, they are on their way. Don’t anybody do anything stupid. We want to talk to them. We want to work it out. That’s what we are all about here." He ran down the hallway to meet the ATF. I spoke to several people who were at the front door, and they all told me the same thing. They said, "David held the door in his hand, he held his hand out, and said, ‘Hold on, there’s women and children here, let’s talk about this, let’s work this out.’" They said the door went back in his hand from the velocity of the bullets hitting it. And he slammed the door and fell back and all these bullets started coming into the foyer. And that’s when people started firing back.

There’s another thing. The four agents that died didn’t die until 20 minutes into the gun battle. If we were planning an ambush, they never would have gotten out of those cattle trailers.

There are two major indications that the FBI isn’t being truthful about who fired first. The one of course is the metal door. One of the two attorneys who came inside the compound during the siege was a Marshall judge in the Marines. He said that all the bullet holes were coming from the outside in, not the inside out. One of the doors was entered as evidence in the trial, but the important door was not. When the defense attorneys asked about the other door, the government said it must have disintegrated, yet the other door was intact. The other indication that they were not being truthful is that they were filming us. They had video cameras at the house. When the FBI said they wanted videotapes at the beginning of the raid, the ATF said, "We don’t have any because all of our cameras malfunctioned." It’s a cover up. It’s so disgusting.

Reason: What about the helicopters?

Thibodeau: Three eyewitnesses that I spoke to all saw the helicopters firing.

Reason: What’s the government’s explanation?

Thibodeau: That they weren’t firing. What the government says is that the helicopters have no mounted guns. So technically it wasn’t the helicopters but it could have been the agents on board who were armed.

Reason: Why would they be so reckless?

Thibodeau: I don’t know. But they did fire. I saw the evidence. I got on my knees and looked at a bullet hole trajectory in a plastic tank and in that plastic tank I could see where it was fired from.

Reason: How can you tell?

Thibodeau: It was really interesting. It went into a side of the tank and came out of another point in front.

Reason: So it came out lower?

Thibodeau: Yes, that’s correct. I got on my knees and looked. It lined up perfectly. I was next to Winston Blake’s bed, the man who died with French Toast in his mouth.

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Why do people call it a massacre? Because teh government agents involved, either deliberately or due to a series of criminally incompetent and negligent decisions, managed to kill a bunch of innocent people, including children, when all that was needed was to use a little bit of professionalism and stick tot he law in order to make a clean arrest.

If the government agents had ever cared about the children, they would not have trapped them int he building, spent days torturing them, and then murdered them.

There was no "heavy fire" from the building. Evidence suggests that many of the ATF agents who were shot in the incident were actually shot by "friendly fire" from other ATF agents - one is even seen on video shooting himself. When the feds ran out of ammo, after indiscriminately "mag-dumping" into the occupied buildings, the Davidians didn't shoot them - even though the (poorly) trained and (un)disciplined law enforcement (un)professionals were sitting ducks as they raised their hands and walked away to safety.

The Davidians were calling 911 and trying to get legitimate law enforcement professionals from a non-corrupt agency to respond to the multiple felonies being committed against them. They didn't know that this attack was coming, or who the people were that appeared at their door and started shooting them.

After the incident kicked off with multiple felonies and civil rights violations by the federal agents, what sane person would trust them?

The entire thing was mishandled from the beginning, because the ATF wanted to get publicity by performing a "sexy" raid with heavily armed agents, instead of a routine inspection or warrant service.

Believe it or not, law enforcement professionals can serve warrants, perform safety/compliance inspections, and even deal with barricaded people without having to shoot them, trample on the civil rights of innocents, suppress the press, lie to the American people, violate the posse commitatus act, set houses/churches on fire, interfere with emergency services workers, or murder children.

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