historical error?


The movie took place in 1993, right? In one of the scenes, Guy explains to Vera that he will take her to Split en route to Belisce. But from what I remember, Split was taken over by the Croats in 1992, and the Serbs expelled. It was also the site of the infamous Lora concenctration camp, holding Serb civilians and prisoners of war. How could Quaid, dressed in a VRS uniform, expect to waltz in there and not get killed?

"Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, at least it's an ethos."

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That was like after the old guy gave him those clothes. I'm surprised he made it that far at all, seeing as the HVO liked to sweep that area.

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Hey, I'm a Serb, but the fact is that the town of Split is and always was Croatian. It never fell into the hands of any Serbian army.

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@aactrooper

Everyone defended their homes. There were over 500.000 Serbs in Crotia before the war and now there is about 200.000. Those people were defending their homes and you are calling them aggressors. And don`t pretend like you don`t know what happened to Serbs in your country during WW2. They knew that if they don`t defend themselves something like that could happen to them in this civil war.

300.00 and more were killed in concentration camps by Croatian ustaša regime

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenovac_concentration_camp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stara_Gradi%C5%A1ka_concentration_camp

And don`t even try to act like your country left those things in the past. (I saw that you wrote on other topic that people on Thomson concerts are just ignorant kids. That`s a lie. There were 80.00 people on concert in Zagreb and among them Croatian officials. Read more about thomson here: http://www.juliagorin.com/wordpress/?p=911)

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Just defending their homes?

Like when they were bombing Dubrovnik?
Or flattening Vukovar to the ground level?

What was the percentage of Serbs in Šibenik and Zadar? Or around Dubrovnik? Or even Petrinja?
WHAT HAPPENED IN SABORSKO? ŠKABRNJA? LOVAS?

You're as ridiculous as those Croats who defend Ustashe and only talk about Bleiburg and never about Jasenovac.
Because of people like you, who fall for propaganda and only listen to one side of a story this war was possible.

You don't depend only on Serbian national television like the people 15 years ago. You have an internet connection. Use it.


Sentencing judgement in the case of Milan Martic (Serb leader) (http://www.un.org/icty/pressreal/2007/pr1162e-summary.htm):
"...Thus, the threat clearly expressed in Milan Martic's ultimatum in Kijevo was carried out in the territory of the SAO Krajina through the commission of widespread, grave crimes. This created an atmosphere of fear in which the further presence of Croats and other non-Serbs in the SAO Krajina was made impossible. The Trial Chamber has therefore concluded that the displacement of the Croat and other non-Serb population which followed these attacks was not merely the consequence of military action, but in fact its primary objective....
From August 1991 and into early 1992, these combined forces attacked several Croat-majority villages and areas, including Hrvatska Kostajnica, Cerovljani, Hrvatska Dubica, Bacin, Saborsko, Poljanak, Lipovaca, Škabrnja and Nadin. The evidence shows that the attacks were carried out in order to connect Serb villages and areas across non-Serb areas. During these attacks, the crimes of murder, destruction, plunder, detention, torture, and cruel treatment were committed against the non-Serb population..."

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and what about 300.000 Serbs who were killed or had to left their homes in Croatia?

You are the one who is insisting on just one side of the story. I`m aware that some Serbs are war criminals and that they killed civilians during the war, but it`s like you can`t say that other side also committed crimes. When someone say that Muslim and Croats also are guilty for what happened people like you show up.

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No, you're the one who is insisting on only one side of the story. You said Serbs were only defending their homes, when they in fact conquered a third of Croatia and ethnically cleansed this territory in a most heinous way (even the SAO Krajina authorities started investigating THIS incident: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siroka_Kula_massacre). Serbs made up only 12% of Croatia's populace, and this includes those living in big cities outside SAO Krajina (Zagreb, Rijeka, Zadar, Split).
How's that defending?

"300.00 Serbs who were killed or had to leave"?
It's half that number that left. And that sentence sounds like half of that huge number were killed, when in Operation Storm (this is what you're referring to) there was only a few hundred civilian casualties. Also, the Serbian authorities started evacuating the civilians before the Croatian army arrived. Yes, they ran out of fear...fear of reprisals for massacres like the one in Siroka Kula.

And by the way, about the civilian casualties...they even include people who are alive or were killed by the Serbs themselves - like the ethnically mixed family from Siroka Kula.

I'm ashamed of what the ustashe did, most Croatians are. The only Croatian party that evades condemning them - HSP - got only 3% at the last elections.
Sadly, most Serbs still believe in the Milosevic propaganda of the 1990. The Serbian radicals who openly talk about conquering Bosnia and Croatia regularly win around 30% at every elections.


Mor

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You said that you are from Ireland, and you know what Vuk Jeremic said few days ago. Give me a brake.


Western media gave their best to demonize Serbs. Watch the real story of the infamous Trnopolje "death" camp:


Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xox7TR11evI&feature=related
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEQpUlh51xU&feature=related
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPiAWbIbAyM&feature=related


If you don`t have time or patience to watch the whole documentary watch only the second part.

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The Serb civilians were the first to be attacked in the wars. Even a former minister in the Tudjman government admits Tudjman believed a war was necessary for independence so the Croats initiated attacks on Serbs and the JNA.

Some of the places used as Croat propaganda, like Vukovar, had Serb CIVILIANS as the first killed. A Croat called TOMISLAV MERCEP started the war in Vukovar and Serbs only responded.

Tomislav Mercep and the Croat police were abducting Serbs, starting in early May 1991 (if not before) and torturing and killing them. Some of their bodies were thrown in the rivers. And I've seen pictures of identified dead Serbs in the rivers.

Also in other Croat cities and villages Serbs were being liquidated. Branimir Glavas in Osijek tortured and murdered Serbs at the beginning of the war.

Miro Bajramovic admitted in 1997 that he was responsible for killing 86, mostly Serb, civilians - 72 with his own hands. He was just ONE man in a death squad which was liquidating Serbs in 1991.

Serbs lost a higher percentage of civilians.

And their homes have been systematically destroyed and they are prevented from coming back - which is true ethnic cleansing.

The Bosnian Muslims were allies with the Croats and initiated the killings in Bosnia. They ran concentration camps and rape camps together - they prevented the media, and often the Red Cross, from seeing the men - who were often in horrible condition with crippling injuries and scars.

Croats and Muslims never show any signs of torture scars despite all their and the mass media's hype.

The Muslim deaths were greatly exaggerated, as an independent group, hired by the ICTY (pro NATO court) even admitted.

Most of the Bosnian dead were military - not civilians - showing how the Muslims and media lied throughout the war. And their number of total dead was much smaller than they were already claiming in 1992.

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Some individual incidents involving attacks on Serbs started only after the "Log revolution". Croatians overwhelmingly supported independence, which they had legal right for according to constitution, and Krajina Serbs (8% of population) wanted to deny them this right. This and the longstanding aninosity because of privileges that the Serbs enjoyed caused this incidents.

Then the killing began. After the incidents at Plitvice and Borovo, the Croatian government realised that Croatia will be denied its independence and that it will have to fight for it. I see you agree with me on that. It was the massacre in Borovo, perpetrated by paramilitary groups from Serbia, that caused open riots and even killings of Serbian civilians in Croatia as retribution.

This is the right chronology. I understand that you will want to disagree with this, so I invite you to check all this. For the purposes of war, the crimes of the enemy are always exaggerated (or even invented, like the supposed massacre of Serbian children in a kindergarten in Vukovar, as was shown in a B92 documentary, and can be found on youtube), while the crimes of their own are minimized and denied. So I understand that you know only about Croatian crimes. You were raised like this. The Croatian TV ignored Croatian crimes too. But if I can search for Serbian POV, watch Serbian made documentaries, so can you.

You claim Croatians and Bosnian muslims wanted war - your logic if nothing else should tell you this is not true. Neither of them had an army and both had weapon embargos. In the first months of war the Serbian armies were unstoppable for Croatians and Muslim - they had nothing to stop them with. In those first months the Serbs conquered 1/3 of Croatia and 70% of Bosnia & Herzegovina. Your claim is as preposterous as claiming Poland wanted war with Nazi Germany.

You take burned houses in Croatia as an example of "true" ethnic cleansing. Have you ever seen pictures of Vukovar? I'll give you a better example - in 1995, 99% of population in R Srpska was Serbian.

You talk about percentages: according to the Hague tribunal, 90% of war crimes in the Yugoslav wars was done by Serbs.

You deny torture and rape being done by Serbs, when people are in prison for these crimes. Like the Lukic brothers and their rape camp near Foca. Ever heard of Almira Bektovic? Google it, you even have Hague documents online if you don't believe the story.

Do some research before posting something.

Mor

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I don't see anyone injured, nor anyone being beaten or harassed. The people aren't running, nor in a panic. There are youtube videos of Serbs fleeing from Croats and Muslims and Croats and Muslims grabbing them and executing them on the spot.

This youtube video is very sedate - no injuries, panic - just people leaving because their army told them to. Big whoop.

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The Croats started with the killing.

In Vukovar a man named TOMISLAV MERCEP, along with the Croat police, started arresting Serbs (both prominent and random) and torturing them in a fallout shelter, then killing them and dumping their bodies into the rivers.

There are actual photographs of identified Serbs whose bodies were floating in the rivers after killed by Croats. No such photographs of any Croats killed.

And the Croats did fire mortars just across the border into Serbia to initiate the violence. This was done by Gojko Subotic who was the Croatian defense minister. The attack didn't kill anyone buy destroyed a few Serbian houses just over the border.

Croatia did want an excuse to purge the Serb population.
They were destroying Serbian homes and businesses from the get-go.

The Croat government and police did approve of the attacks.

Tudjman planned the ethnic cleansing and genocide of Serbs.

Croats TEMPORARILY left regions (often on Croat government order and pressure) during the fighting, which allowed to Croats to concentrate on hurting the remaining Serb population.

The Croat population of Croatia did not fall. The Croats mostly lost military and police who were ethnically cleansing the Serb population.

The Serbs were fighting for their very existence against a plan to get rid of them.

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All parties involved in this conflict have blood on their hands, nobody can claim to be inocent, Serb, Croat, Bosnian, Christian or Muslim. It is what it is.

History does not look kindly upon those who try to justify this terrible event along the lines of "what might have been" or "what should have been", history is only concerned with what is. History will also prove to be unforgiving to all parties involved in the slaugher, massacre, genocide, rape, torture and murder of all those men, women and children caught in the middle of this utterly sad, senseless and tragic man-made catastrophy.

There will be a reckoning, and all those who partook in the bloodletting, Serb, Croat, Bosnian, Slovenian, Montenegran, Kosovar, Catholic, Ordhodox, Muslim or whatver, will pay for their sins. The guilty will be dealt with and none will escape the justice that is coming to them. Punishment will find every last one.

"Today is the tomorrow I was so worried about yesterday"--Anthony Hopkins

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The army was disintegrating - as the non-Serb members were DEFECTING. This included ethnic Croat pilots who simply flew their planes to Croatia, and Slovene, Croat, Bosnian Muslim and Albanian soldiers who decided to fight for separatism.
Actually many ethnic Albanian members of the JNA ended up fighting for Croatia - Agim Ceku, Tahir Zemaj, Rahim Ademi.

As well, many barracks in Croatia and Bosnia were simply taken over at the start from the JNA.

Many JNA officers and soldiers defected, as well as pilots and those in the leadership.

And there were weapons and explosive plants which were under control of the Bosnian Muslims or Croats throughout the war.

The Bosnian Croats and Bosnian Muslims fought viciously over control of the Vitez explosives plant. The Croats had control of this, but they were almost in a state of collapse from the intense and repeated attacks of the Bosnian Muslim army until the ceasefire saved them.

I'd like to point out that YOUR BOSNIAN CROATS definitely called the Muslim forces and army - and knew their commanders, brigade numbers, military maneuvers, weaponry, and how they supplied and reinforced themselves, etc. - in their synopsis of the Croat-Muslim war.

Take this for example, which is some of the fighting of the weapons/explosive plant in Vitez, which the Croats held, but the Muslims wanted ("ABiH" is what they termed the Bosnian Muslim lead army):

Just over a month later, on December 8, the ABiH mounted a two-pronged attack from Zaselje and Stari Vitez with the apparent objective of taking the SPS factory. The Muslims failed again, but they achieved greater success just two weeks later when the ABiH mounted another determined attack on Vitez along the Preocica-Sivrino Selo-Pirici axis toward Krizancevo Selo on December 22. The HVO defenders were surprised; Krizancevo Selo, just fifteen hundred meters from the UNPROFOR Dutch/Belgian Transport Battalion compound near Dubravica, was taken; and between sixty and a hundred HVO soldiers and Croat civilians were killed in the village.1 The operation was conducted by the 2d Battalion, 325th Mountain Brigade, under the personal supervision of Gen. Rasim Delic, the ABiH commander, who was present in the 2d Battalion command post during the attack. In view of the determined ABiH attempts to take Vitez and the SPS factory, it is not surprising that a proposed ABiH-HVO Christmas cease-fire fell through due to ABiH intransigence.2
http://www.hercegbosna.org/engleski/war2.html
http://www.hercegbosna.org/engleski/operation.html


And in the following summary, it is claimed that 50,000 Muslims were cleansed from Croat controlled territory, while 150,000 Croats were cleansed from Muslim-controlled territory during the Croat-Muslim war:

October 1st - 5th, 1993

"…Using the absence of the HVO forces that were helping the evacuation of 6,000 ethnically cleansed Croats from the town of Kakanj, Muslim Army started with the coordinated attack on the municipality and city of Vares. Muslims were targeting only Croat villages that were already fully encircled, deprived of any humanitarian help, cutting the communications and using the civilians as "live shields….". The consequences of the attack were catastrophic for the Croats residing in Vares. 10,000 Croats from Vares and around 10,000 Croats from the area of Kakanj ultimately were expelled from Vares. During the Croat-Muslim war cca. 50,000 Bosnian Muslims have
been expelled from the area under HVO control, while the number of Croats ethnically
cleansed from the Bosnian Muslim Army held territories is around 150,000.

http://www.hercegbosna.org/engleski/cromusl.html


So you see, even your Croats, when they write of the Croat-Muslim war, call the Muslims forces an army. And further, this which I quote is only a bit, as there are many other named commanders of the Bosnian Muslim army which the Croats have accused of attacks on Croat civilians and other war crimes.
And that's not even to mention the foreign Mujahideen which committed ghastly mutilations on Croats and Serbs.

In one case Croat POWs accuse the Muslims of forcing them to kill the decapitated Serb civilian man after a ritual beheading by the Muslims.

The Muslim army did hold both Serbs and Croats in concentration camps and jails and Croats are the witnessed for this sometimes - so you see even some Croats do admit to the Muslims running either concentration camps or torture/murder jails of Serbs.

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