MovieChat Forums > Savior (1998) Discussion > Wow, finally a movie that doesen't demon...

Wow, finally a movie that doesen't demonize the Serbs


Never thought I'd live to see the day!

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I agree, I think that it is pretty cool that the film attempted to show how all sides did horrible things. But I am worried alot of dumasses will just take it as propagandha and start raising their three fingers at the movie screen yelling "Srbija do Tokija!!!" I don't think alot of people will quite get the point.

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I agree also, but i do not see any material that could bring out statements like "Srbija do Tokia" Its been a while from when ive seen the movie, but i dont remember any extreme pro serb scenes.

P.S
Look in the thread propaganda, more of the opposite reaction i think...
All in all a good movie not taking any sides.

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I had no idea what so ever about the Bosnian war but I can tell you that after watching this movie, I saw the wrongness of both nations and the perspective of the movie. I had no idea about it but it has put on some light. Definitely not biased.

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[deleted]

by - drrclavan on Mon Nov 3 2008 16:15:36
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The only wrongness was being done by the muslims. As always.

That is a ridiculous statement

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[deleted]

[deleted]

I agree. This is probably the only Balkan War movie in existence that remains neutral and exposes atrocities from ALL SIDES. There were no bad guy, and there were no good guys. Chetnik, Ustasha, Mujahideen, KLA, they were all butchers. Except only one of those was the villian to Western governments while the others were real life care bears.

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[deleted]

[deleted]

[deleted]

[deleted]

umm aactrooper...
this movie is directed by a serb...but written by Robert Orr...now that name doesn't sound serbian...right?
also it's not pro-serb 'cause the biggest idiot in the movie..Goran is a serb (played by sergej trifunovic)
this movie is not showing the bad and the good guys...cause there werent any good ones...
you mentioned Vukovar and Srebrenica, but not maybe Jasenovac(concentration camp in croatia for Serbs, Jews and Gypsies) and Bratunac('city' of serbian majority near Srebrenica)...
and yes, the war was in Bosnia and Croatia, not Serbia(after all it was Yugoslavia then) but Serbs live(d) there. Beside Herzegovina and the distict of Brcko, the Republic of Srpska(Serbian republic) exists in Bosnia and Herzegovina for a reason...cause serbs still live there....and how many hundreds of serbs were forced to leave or killed in Operation Storm of Croatian army?
I was born in Sarajevo, and pretty much remember the traumatic parts, and I know that half of my family is dead, but I don't hate no one cause people were in this war cause they had to, not because they wanted to, you had to kill to be alive, so you can't blame one nation for the whole war.
about Kosovo...I'll just say that 200.000 Serbs were forced to leave Kosovo and 800.000 Albanians who never lived there, came after 1998...
and finaly, serbia and montenegro were bombed by nato for 76 days...when you get through all that, you'll be able to judge

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I'm getting confused. I've not seen the movie - just considering if I should do it - but from the description got the impression that it is about the war in 1990s. In the discussion the argument is used "but the Croats had Jasenovac concantration camp". So I looked it up in Wikipedia, and from there it seems that the Jesenovac cc existed during the WWII, not during the 1990s war. So which war is the movie about? And if it is about 1990s, then what the heck an concentration camp from the WWII has to do with it?

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@Malgorzata64

Yes that was concentration camps from WW2. I don`t see how you can say that it have nothing to do with war that happened in 1991. It is less than 50 years difference. You really think that everything changed during that small amount of time? Do you think that Serbs could feel safe in country where 300.000 of them were brutally slaughtered just 50 years before.

Croatia is still strongly connected to ustasha ideals. There were 80.000 people on pro ustasha singer Thomson in their capital and Croatian officials were among them. (read more about it here: http://www.juliagorin.com/wordpress/?p=911)


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You might have a point, but it wasn't my point. ;) Mayby I should clarify.

As a layman in the subject when I read the texts I got an impression that during the 1990s war the were Croatian concentration camps. And there weren't. So from my point of view - and I guess anybody who is not acquainted with the subject - the texts were misleading. Perhaps it is different for those who know that story well.

Are cc from 50 years before any justification for killing? Well, then there is no chance for peace - everybody has a story of violence. Is the fact that someone does not FEEL safe a justification for war? Again, then there is no chance for peace. "We Serbs don't feel safe in Croatia, they go to concerts of some lame groups, so let's make war." Was that how it started?



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You got it wrong. And you are little offending with your stupid simplifications.

First of all, not everybody (like you said) had concentrations camps in which they slaughtered 300.000 civilians of neighboring country nationality in the past. And those who did things like (there are very few examples of atrocities of that scale) that don`t celebrate it like Croatians do.

Croatians had concentrations camps in Yugoslav civil war, and so did Serbs and Muslims ( so you are wrong ). But there were not nearly horrible as Jasenovac or Stara Gradiška.

Just try to read a little more and play smart a little less and maybe, just maybe some thing will be more clear to you.

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I think you don't get my point. At least you don't address it. Using a slaughter from 50 years ago to start a new slaughter is not a good idea. If it was otherwise, explain. But that's the impression I gets from some texts in this exchange: war in 1990s was justified because during the WWII there were Croatian cc where Serbs were killed. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't have time to read that much about Balkans right now, and thus my questions here. If you are so well informed, you can just answer them. No need to try to offend me.

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I didn`t said that was the reason or excuse to start the war and I really don`t know why are you insisting on that.




German Politician Peter Glotz who published an article in the
September issue of "Das neue Gesselshaft", stating that: "It is an undeniable
fact that secession was the first act of aggression in former Yugoslavia and
the recognition of Chauvinist Croatia without previously securing
international guarantees for the autonomy of Serbs in Croatia, was a major
mistake. It must not be forgotten that the Serbian shelling of Vukovar, which
is generally thought to be the beginning of military operations in the
Balkans, was preceded by monstrous massacres of several thousand peaceful
Serbs by the local Croats."("Politics", November 10, 1995)


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[deleted]

[deleted]

The '90s wars were caused by violent separatists and western support of these violent separatist.

However, symbols and slogans and some of the same plans and ideals of WWII were revived.

Croatia achieved it's almost total ethnic cleansing of Serbs living there - which was their aim in WWII and in the last.

The Croat war President Franjo Tudjman even invited and had old Ustasha from WWII serve in his cabinet. Starting 1989/1990 they came from South America and abroad to finish the task.

The Muslim President, Alija Izetbegovic, was part of a pro-Nazi youth group during WWII, and he was jailed a couple times after the war for violence against Serbs in - once was in the 1950's. He and a group of Muslims were jailed in the early '80s for plots and seeking help from radical Muslim groups and countries for an independent Bosnia - this was before Milosevic.

The leadership, in other words, was similar, in aims as the WWII, and some of the same players - or their juniors, involved.

The west and mainstream media (tool of the west) hid what they were as they wanted Yugoslavia broken into small ethnically pure or occupied statelets to be controlled and later absorbed by the west/EU.

The ethnic Serb population was seen as in the way in Croatia and Bosnia, so it had to be chased out or minimized and oppressed.

Serbs and Serbia REACTED. The media was a deceiving magician to help push their agenda.




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"As a layman in the subject when I read the texts I got an impression that during the 1990s war the were Croatian concentration camps. And there weren't."

You are woefully ignorant of the war then. There were indeed concentration camps and torture centers/prisons in Croatia.

Do research on the Lora concentration camp. Read here this link which details it and has testimony from the survivors:
http://www.swans.com/library/art8/elich006.html

You'll notice that Croat soldiers and torturers were referring to themselves as Ustasha. They were continuing what went on in WWII.

Before the war in 1991, the Serbs were over 12.2% of the population (which is an undercount as a significant number of Serbs in Croatia would term themselves as "Yugoslavs") but after the war by 2001 census they were 4.5% or less (and that's counting some refugees living in Serbia but only going back to Croatia to register and vote - they are still unable to live there full time (houses still ruined, dangerous)).

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@ hilchadlee

WTF are you saying dude 800.000 albanians never lived in Kosova?! Are you nuts ?! I am one of those Albanians who was forced by your army to leave my home and to go in Albania, your chetnik paramilitary soldiers took all our money and gold even from our mothers hands and necks! All our documents were burned in the border with Albania they took all my realatives and neighbourhoods who were more then 18 years old and locked them in prison then they sent them in Serbia prisons for more then 5 years, they killed four of my cousins one of them was only 9 years old! They burned my house, they killed three Albanians in my uncles yard, they expelled more then 900.000 Kosovo-Albanians from Kosova in direction of Albania and Macedonia boarder, most of them who were forced to go in Macedonia now live in USA, FRANCE, GERMANY who took them from the camp in boarder with Macedonia! The serbian army is pussy army, they killed more then 30.000 Kosovo-Albanian civilians! They raped girls in front of they parents in one village near Pristina , they cut the babies out of their mothers womb, they killed kids, womens and old people mostly. There are still more then 3000 Albanians missing, probably they are buried somewhere in Serbia and they will be discovered just as two previous massive graves there with Albanians killed during the war.

But thanks to USA - NATO, Kosovo is finally free and INDEPENDENT, just as it should be more then 100 years ago but the Europe left us in the mouth of wolf and finaly they corrected their historical mistake in 1999!

Sorry for my bad English!

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''Cetnik paramilitary forces''

...existed in WWII.

Albanian extremists (known until 1999. and Klinton's agenda as TERRORIST ORGANIZATION OF KLA) in SERBIAN REGION of Kosovo were engaged by OFFICIAL ARMY, POLICE and ANTITERORIST GROUPS, as would be in any civlized country in the world. Try having a group of armed fighters alongside their 12member families capture a part of Germany, England, or US..and see what would happen.

So truth is hardly a pathetic picture you painted.

Also, thanks to the NATO Bombing, controversial even illegal both in US Senate and UN, more Albanians died (by those bombs) in those 70ish days than by Serb guns in years.

This is a good movie. One of those rare ones that escaped the infamous US censorship. It is great to see that beside Serb militant predators, war in Yugoslavia was waged also by Neo Nazi Croat maniacs, and bloodthirsty Muslim Mujaheddin, well known throughout the civilized and semi civilized World from Munich onwards.

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Dude i was born here and i was here during the war and i live here and will die here! Serbian army put civilians where nato would drop their bombs it happened in two bridges! They put like 200 - 300 civilians on the bridge and told them to stay there or they would kill them! They didnt know why would they put them in the bridge so when nato would bombed the bridge they killed all those civilans and that did happen near Prishtina! And saying that nato bombs killed more civilians then serbian army is a bad joke!

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Good for you.BUt...

I was one of the people in Belgrade on those bridges,on those protests, and no one put us there....So that propaganda about some evil government putting some minority on bridges for NATO to strike them just doesn't hold water.That is a Hollywood bs.It is just pure and simple - lie.

Did that happen when NATO bombed Albanian refugees near Djakovica over and over..Or were that Serbs in F16s??? Around half of the entire civilian casualties in bombing campagin were Albanians. And you praise Klinton.Funny.

Again, you fail to adress the KLA issue,and what the hell were they doing in a foreign country.

However, this is not the place for that. You have a movie Strsljen for Serb/Albanian relations.

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Isnt this movie directed by Oliver Stone?

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"As a former war journalist who was in Croatia and Bosnia I feel angred by this movie... The way it portrays Croatian and Bosnian soldiers is horribly disrespectfull to them since they were defenders!"

And of course you lie here - as elsewhere you admit to being an 18-year-old dude. You would have been under 5 years old, so you were not a reporter.

You merely repeat the lying propaganda. There is no evidence for the rape tales - Serbian womens' reports were of better quality, but ignored due to the agenda.

The concentration camps were run by Muslims and Croats who then turned on each other and put each other in the places where they kept Serbs. It's true - in the Mostar area for instance.

The Muslims and Croats released many criminals just before the war and these criminals ran the paramilitary and the had illegal prisons, concentration camps and rape camps for Serbs.

Serbs have better documented evidence, but the western media suffocated that to push their agenda.

The Muslims don't have any DNA evidence, medical evidence, nor proven rape babies to back up all their lying claims.

Many of the claims were by Croat scribblers writing in Zagreb and coming up with a bunch of wild tales from their sick imagination.

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you aactrooper are probably the lowest propaganda spreading lifeform on this Earth. The Serbs did it all right ? While the Croats were just innocent little gems suffering at the hands of evil. Do you even realize how juvenile your comments are. I don't think you have the slightest idea of geo-politics or the politics that were being implemented at that time. It is a matter of documentation that Bosnian Muslim staged attacks to blame on the Serbs, this is not my opinion, it is testimony by UN commanders at the scene who couldn't believe what they were seeing and there are alot of that kind of cases. Croatians ethnically cleansed 300.000 Serbs in Operation Storm and killed their share of Bosnian Muslims in Hercegovina as did Bosnian Muslims kill around 3000 Serbs in the vicinity of Srebrenica under the command of Naser Oric. All three sides were guilty of attrocities. But children that had their genitals cut off and baby ripped out of whombs, seriously, do you even believe that yourself ? You're pobably one of those 15 year olds who's searching for an identity, and getting your education on the conflict from Youtube aren't you ?

'In America, First You Get The Money, Then You Get The Power, And Then You Get The Women'

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All parties involved in this conflict have blood on their hands, nobody can claim to be inocent, Serb, Croat, Bosnian, Christian or Muslim. It is what it is.

History does not look kindly upon those who try to justify this terrible event along the lines of "what might have been" or "what should have been", history is only concerned with what is. History will also prove to be unforgiving to all parties involved in the slaugher, massacre, genocide, rape, torture and murder of all those men, women and children caught in the middle of this utterly sad, senseless and tragic man-made catastrophy.

There will be a reckoning, and all those who partook in the bloodletting, Serb, Croat, Bosnian, Slovenian, Montenegran, Kosovar, Catholic, Ordhodox, Muslim or whatver, will pay for their sins. The guilty will be dealt with and none will escape the justice that is coming to them. Punishment will find every last one.


"Today is the tomorrow I was so worried about yesterday"--Anthony Hopkins

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[deleted]

This movie was *beep* People who generally try to portray 'both sides' in war do so because they either don't know a goddamn thing about the war or they were on the side that has committed the most atrocities.

The Serbs committed the most atrocities by a huge margin. The massacre (deemed a genocide by the ICJ of Yugoslavia) of 8000 Bosniak men and boys. The mass rapes. Etc.

This movie makes it seem as though both sides were equally as bad which is ridiculous.

Of course, movies like this and the whole concept of 'moral equivalence' is to prevent people from examining their own crimes and comparing.

It appeals to morons. Look on the first page, some random douche blamed 'the Muslims'. *beep* typical on the internet for ignorant people to regurgitate mainstream rhetoric (WAR ON TERROR and all the other nonsense).

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What you don't realize is that the same groups which pushed the "war on terror" also pushed the Balkan war propaganda.
The separatists were the U.S. (and Germany's) tools to break up Yugoslavia into ethnically pure or separated statelets.

There were staged attacks for the cameras, there were grossly exaggerated death tolls, there was ignoring the deaths of Serb civilians, the terrific amount of ethnic cleansing of the Serb population from Croat and Muslim held areas, the ignoring of the HUGE Muslim army of 200,000 which also fought against the Croats for over a year.

Srebrenica was a huge MUSLIM ARMY BASE and they murdered the ethnic Serbs living in Srebrenica from the start of the war.

One of the first victims was a Serbian judge who was murdered by Naser Oric.

Naser Oric was the commander and he and his men had a scorched earth policy against the Serb villages all around Srebrenica.

The Bosnian Serbs were on their own after the Yugoslav army was pulled out in late June 1992.

When they finally organized enough to take on the Muslims who had burned down scores of their villages during the summer and fall 1992, the UN stepped in to protect the Muslim terrorist base.

They have not found 8,000 dead, despite years and years of searching.

They have resorted to using fallen fighters from throughout the war.

Men who died back in 1992, 1993, 1994 are being used as alleged victims of the Srebrenica "fall".

Actually most of the men and the army did make it to Tuzla, starting from a week after the fall.

Some of the men actually were put on other fronts.

Also, the Srebrenica army was ordered to gather and leave - despite them being in superior numbers to the Serb forces and being in a defensive position - giving them and advantage.

Their death toll is GREATLY exaggerating and the deaths includes battle deaths and accidents but is repackaged to be POW-style.

There are no available autopsy reports to back up any of their claims.

There also no evidence for the propaganda rape stories which were hyped by the media.

THERE WAS NO INCREASE IN BIRTHS IN BOSNIA WHICH WOULD HAVE RESULTED FROM RAPES ON THE SCALE WHICH THE PROPAGANDISTS CLAIMED.

The rape camp stories were lies.

Researchers never actually found any rape camps operated by the Serbs.

They did find the Muslim army operating one in Tuzla.

The Serbian womens' rape reports to the UN Security Council were BEFORE all the media hype.

Only after the Serbian women reports did the propaganda against Serbs take off - one could say it was hype trying to drown out the truth.

And the Bosnian Muslim courts convicted Serbs of killing people who were later discovered to be alive and well - and had been working for the army in Sarajevo throughout the war.

The Bosnian Muslims tortured Serb prisoners into confessing murders and rapes for the foreign media. The western media even got awards - Pulitzer prizes even - for repeating the lying Muslim propaganda.

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The reason the Serbs were the "worst". was because they were winning.

Its simply because they Got the upper hand with heavy weapons.

If anybody thinks that if it was the Bosniaks who got the upperhand, it would have not happened, is kidding themselves.

Of course, we're idiots in the western world, Bosnia is now training and harbouring Jihadists, we're absolute mugs for taking their side.

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[deleted]

Actually, the Bosniaks fought with the Croats from late 1992 until February 1994, when western pressure forced them together again.

Today, Croats are moving out of Sarajevo because the Muslims are growing increasingly oppressive and Islamic - painting the streets green (Islam color), forbidden pork, wearing head coverings, building hundreds of mosques, pushing Islamic teachings in preschools - leading some Croats to in fact go to the Serb-run schools just outside Sarajevo.

Plus, many of the 9-11 terrorists had lived and trained in Bosnia. And other terrorists used it as a training base.

There are still a lot of foreign Muslims living in Bosnia, even thought they were supposed to leave after the war.

The Bosnian Muslims were on the Nazi side during WWII and were a special project of Himmler.

The Bosnian Muslim wartime president Alija Izetbegovic was part of a Muslim pro-Nazi youth group during WWII.

After the war he was jailed several times for inciting violence against Serbs, and was jailed with other Muslims in the early '80s for trying to create and independent Islamic state of Bosnia.

He was not multicultural. The Muslims want Bosnia all for themselves - despite the fact that Serbs and Orthodox Christians lived in Bosnia LONG before the Muslim religion came.

Serbs also outnumbered the Muslim until a few decades ago.

Austrian census in the late 1800's showed Serbs were over 40% of Bosnians, while the Muslims in the 30% range.

Bosnia does not belong to the Muslims, but they took the name of Bosnia and called themselves "Bosniaks" to make it seem as if it was their land when they weren't there first and weren't the most numerous during most of its history.

They are just a remnant and tool of foreign domination (Ottoman Empire, Austro-Hungarian Empire, NWO/U.S./EU/NATO meddlers).

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[deleted]

I meant Bosnia doesn't SOLELY belong to the Muslims alone (as they desire) - as Orthodox Christians were living there long before the Ottoman Turks invaded and thereafter some in the population became Muslim.

I do not live in Serbia. I am not Serb. But I am pro-Serb and I know more the truth about the war than an ignorant teen like you who goes solely on the cheapest propaganda and exaggerations which have been shown to be untrue.

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JM2-1 is correct.

Bosnia like Albania are being sourced to be islamic strongholds in europe.

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[deleted]

not all bosnians are terrorists... ok i agree, this sounds like a reasonable thought


serbs are evil bastards.... ok this sounds like the thoughts of a child whose father taught him to blindly hate serbs

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aactrooper, seriously man, wtf? you have this deep hatred of serbs, its so strong its sickening. youre actually seeming worse than the people you so strongly hate

i dont hate croatians, or bosnians, and yes, they too have comitted grusome acts in the war. i do condemn those individuals who comitted those acts, but not the people, thats moronic

just like you are acting quite childish. whats up with your comments like "serbs are evil bastards", "serbs are mass rapists", give it a rest you goof.

to me it just seems like you are uneducated, extremely biased, and extremely harsh on serbians.

just so you know buddy, we are HUMANS too, and just because youre trying to demonize us just like the media has, doesnt make us monsters, doesnt make us rapists, doesnt make us bloodthirsty villains.

so please i implore you to stop with your incoherent blabbering about the BLACK SERBIAN SOUL, and just say something productive for once.

im not telling you to start LOVING serbians, but at least acknowledge that your thoughts are quite silly, and that we didnt do nothing to you that you havent done to us, so lets move on with it.

boga ti mali, koji ti je djavo, ti si stvarno nestabilan, otvori oci i pogledaj se u ogledalo, i skontaj da ti hrvati nisu neki andjeli

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[deleted]

hey im orhtodox christian, i dont hate you what so ever.
i dont hate you because your grandfathers butchered my grandfathers sisters brothers and parents. i dont hate you because your grandfathers took my grandfather away to concentration camps. i dont hate you because you ustase held jasenovac and competed who would slit more serbian throats in a day. i dont hate that you supported hitler and fail to accept it. i dont hate you because you spew lies left right and center about serbs. i dont hate you because you tried to illegally annex yourself from yugoslavia. i dont hate the other croatians who supported communism and liars like tito. i dont hate you because of operation storm. i dont hate you because you killed friends and family of mine, and like my people, never showed remorse. i dont hate you because you hold Pavelic, Gotovina, Miroslav Bralo, and other scum for heroes. i dont hate you for the rape of serbians, i dont hate you for all the lies told by the western media about serbs, i dont hate you because you took serbian land in croatia. do you want more reasons....

well heres one, you, who supposedly is "right" in this conflict(war, land, whatever), preach how serbs are this and that with horns sticking out of their head, but at the same time show the same disrespect to us that you claim we are giving to you.

so my dear friend, i know very well that serbs did some nasty deeds, but were not angels, just like your countrymen are not angels, just like your countrymen supported fascism, genocide, torture, rape and all of the above. i just know that all those who deserve to pay... will. not with money, not with jail time, but with some great universal force called karma. so even if the rest of the world and media supports your cause, does NOT mean you are innocent, does not mean you are right, does not mean you are almighty, does not mean you have immunity from criticism.

so dear croat reporter, i leave you with this. OPEN YOUR EYES AND SEE THAT YOU ARE JUST AS "BAD" AS US, MAYBE WORSE

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[deleted]

gotovina is scum. check
i didnt do anything you didnt do. check
lies told by the western media. oh its a joke, i get jokes, ahahah
there hasnt been one single case of croatian rape? yea and im supreme chancellor to darth vader


and if you asked me serbia would include serbia, the PARTS of bosnia where serbs are traditionally from, and the PARTS of croatia where serbs are traditionally from

if you can break off from yugoslavia, why cant we annex ourselves from you?

oh yaaaaa its that sweet double standard allowed to you by the western powers only to get back at russians, and not because they thought you had a just cause

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[deleted]

listen kid, you arent smart or right about anything

you can break off from yugoslavia because its your historic land, well its the serbs too idiot.

gotovina is scum(Screw YOU)

you give a bad name to the croatian people

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[deleted]

bosnian muslims? elaborate

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[deleted]

youre obviously an idiot and a simpleton.
where did bosnian muslims come from? turkey?
no it was converted serbs. umm who was in bosnia before the turks? umm it was serbs.

so for those who live in republika srpska(ex bosnia), that is their native homeland chief.

so now what? your point is ridiculous

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[deleted]

please prove my last point wrong. just prove it

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[deleted]

youre obviously an idiot and a simpleton.
where did bosnian muslims come from? turkey?
no it was converted serbs. umm who was in bosnia before the turks? umm it was serbs.

so for those who live in republika srpska(ex bosnia), that is their native homeland chief.

theres twice for you, the exact same thing, because you didnt even adress my point just said it was wrong

prove this wrong

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[deleted]

excuse me. this is ridiculous. there were no serbs in bosnia before muslims?
fascist?

this is just fact you creten, you really are delusional

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[deleted]

actually, croatia and bosnia did start theyre respective wars.
croatians broke off from yu - war because of that
bosnian - same story

gotovina is scum because he ordered murders of people.
when have i ever defended any one of these people serb or croat?

you on the other hand, are clearly a fascist and racist. i do not hate croats or muslims, in fact many of my friends are from all of ex yu, i just do not like your racist remarks made to my people, i dont like you, as in you the individual

quote from aactrooper regarding serbs on another thread
"You ugly pigs. You disguist me. I wouldnt say anything if this happend during the war or something but... Jesus Christ, you are sick people. I wish you are all dead. You are plague. "

i have saved this message just in case he tries to edit it or delete it
racist goof

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[deleted]

and just like that aactrooper is gone

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[deleted]

Please people should realise there is no point in arguing with Serbs, they are never wrong or guilty of anything, NEVER...

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[deleted]