English dub haters please get over yourselves. - Mononoke-hime (1997) Discussion

[–] StratoJammer13 12 years ago

Maybe some of us just realize that Miyazaki is also a damn good writer, and I'm sure we all would prefer his wonderful storytelling to be complimented by his poetic dialogue.

Whenever I first watch a Miyazaki film, I always watch it with the English dub and focus on the visuals (like you said), then after a short while I watch it again in the original Japanese with English subtitles, and realize it makes the movie infinitely better. The original language adds the correct maturity and drama the film was originally intended to have, and when the characters speak we can now "hear" what they are actually going through; nothing sounds painfully obvious, clunky, or robotic. A lot of times you can just tell that the English-speaking actors are trying to match their dialogue in rhythmically with the already animated mouth movements, and that's when it sounds robotic.

So while I wouldn't call myself a "hater" of the English dub, I see no need to "get over myself". In fact, I would suggest the same to you; some of us have different preferences when it comes to dialogue.

WE ARE...PENN STATE!

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[–] randyhndrsn 12 years ago

Well I agree that some people who complain about dubs can be annoying, not because they don't have a point, but because they seem so angry about it and thus can feel like they need to calm down about.

However, I do think plenty of people like dubs and subs, and just prefer the subs over the dubs, but I agree that reading the subs can take away from the visuals, this is sadly the greatest problem with subs in general.

Still, I find the dub to this film to be pretty damn amazing, the people who usually work on Miyazaki's stuff seem to put more care into it than usual, and this is no exception.

Still, maybe everyone could relax more if we all just focused on the film itself and dropped all this silly debate about dubs and subs, because as long as somebody enjoys it, that is what matters.

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[–] StratoJammer13 12 years ago

The English dub for this film, as well as Spirited Away, is quite good; in fact most of Studio Ghibli's films are dubbed for American audiences quite nicely. It's certainly not uncommon to prefer the original Japanese though, and without being a hater.

I just want to point out that I would imagine the OP would agree with you, regarding that we should focus on the film itself and just enjoy it greatness, yet ironically was the one who started this argument.

WE ARE...PENN STATE!

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[–] JZSquared0 10 years ago

I agree. The dubbing for this film is much much better than other anime. If you want to see something "clunky" and "robotic" check out the English dub of Iria: Zeiram the Animation, that is just awful. If you understand Japanese, then I say more power to you. But personally I don't enjoy reading subtitles, because of what was stated earlier, you miss a lot of what's going on visually. Also if the emotion isn't conveyed the way it needs to be, then that's the directors fault on the dubbing end. I've heard lots of anime that is very impassioned and full of emotion.

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[–] raginfanz 11 years ago

Get over yourself.

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[–] theMargrave 11 years ago

actually, having seen both subs and dubs for every single anime i watch, which is a LOT, i have the perspective to make an accurate judgement.
I think a lot of you just want to seem cooler and more into japanese culture by exclusively watching the sub and automatically discwrding the dubs. Princess mononoke is great both dub and sub, although i prefer dub, and why? Because the portrayal of the movie is better that way. The animal gods sound way more awesome in english.
Its like dragonball for instance....a lot of you fools say the sub is better and i scoff at you. Goku was NOT meant to sound like a girl, noriko is famous VA but NOT good at goku. The jap music is terrible and takes away from the intensity and awesomness, whereas the american music is far superior and fits infinitel better, also sean schemmel is the best goku voice there is and chris sabat has NO rival when it comes to vegeta, piccolo, yamcha, etc NO EQUAL. That was how it was meant to sound and be, and THAT is my point in this long paragraph.

When you hear it amd innately recognise THATS how it should sound, thats your clue that you chose well with it, whether it be subbed or dubbed. Not trying to act like your being a better imitate jap or thinking your being loyal or any other ridiculous reasons you elitest fools come up with, ive heard them all.
If the voice actors sound great, and the music is great, then you have jade the right choice.period
Chase the Dragon!

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[–] cordlc 11 years ago

I don't get why people always bring up this "cooler because Japanese culture" thing up. It has nothing to do with an obsession of Japan / Japanophiles, it's all about getting the dialog / audio in its original format. This applies to movies from any country.

I doubt there's many people praising subs for Miyazaki movies while watching other foreign films in dubs.

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[–] theMargrave 11 years ago

Probably because thats the reason they prefer subs. Its not because they want to hear it in the original format, that doesnt mean its good. When i watch something i want to enjoy it, not tolerate it. I gave several examples of why, but you seem to have disregarded them for some weak short reply.
Thats not to say some actually do just want to hear the original format, because thats true. But most people like to pretend they are more japanese if theyvwatch the sub only, ive been watching anime for more then a decade and have seen many many people post about subs vs dubs.
You dont think in japan that the american cartoons that get dubbed in japanese are being watched IN japanese? More then likely. They arent all watching them in english with japanese subs.
Who the hell other then a sub is superior fool think that the voice for goku is better as a girl weakling that sounds pathetic and does NOT work for the series at all rather then a sean schemmel who clearly brings goku out the best. THAT, is my point, some dubs just work better for the anime, and therefore the sub is not superior just because its the original voices. That makes no sense.

For foreign non animated movies like any hong kong/japanese/european etc movie, its more so tge fact that they usually dub those live action films terribly, like the classic hong komg martial arts films or say ong bak, they CHOSE to hire lackluster dub VAs because dubbing live action movies is not big industry like dubbing anime is, as there are constant new anime being produced at a high rate. Companies like funimation, etc have lots of work for many great english VAs.
Chase the Dragon!

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[–] cordlc 11 years ago

I didn't disregard anything. My problem with your post is your assumption that people prefer subs just because they want to be more Japanese (as opposed to genuinely liking it) is based off nothing. Just because you prefer Goku in English, doesn't mean everyone that disagrees with you is some Japanese wannabe. Opinions can differ.

I much prefer DBZ in English myself, between the voices and music (Bruce Faulconer), but still think subs are the better option 99% of the time. English voices usually don't fit well in anime, they seem out of place. Hell, DBZ Kai is a good example, the dub felt out of place once they reverted back to Japanese music.

There's also the issue of voice actors being forced to match the characters' mouthing, which leads to awkward delivery / translations. It's also distracting in live action movies. Plenty of legitimate reasons to prefer subs.

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[–] theMargrave 11 years ago

Theres no assumption my friend.....its a simple fact, also i did not say everyone was a japanese wannabe who dislikes dubs, i just said it was a common thing. Of course opinions can vary, but opinions dont mean right or wrong, its just your choice.
If you had read what i said previously you woyld have seen that i stated i like both dubs and subs, and whose making assumptions now? Your saying 99% of tje time subs are better.....thats pretty much saying subs wre always better which is false. Theres tons of anime that the dub is far better, for instance......samurai champloo, cowboy bebop, db/dbz/dbgt, kiba, madlax, x, death note, monster, claymore, berserk, samurai deeper demon eyes kyo, samurai 7, baccano, black blood brothers, black lagoon, vampire hunter d/bloodlust, ninja scroll, etc etc etc, it goes on and on.
Some of those i like the subs as well. Like i stated its all about the feel and the music and how the kines should be delivered. Sometimes the japs do it better, sometimes the englush VAs do it better.
Also dragonball kai is a different story because yes they *beep* up by keeping the jap music with the english voice actors, its a joke. The music is best in the old dub and shoyld have been kept.
Chase the Dragon!

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[–] capvid19 11 years ago

I agree with most of what you're saying.

I don't watch a huge amount of anime, so usually the stuff I do watch is big budget. As a result, they're dubbed incredibly well. I love the voice work in this film. I will eventually get around to watching it with subtitles, but I'm a little hesitant to do so just because I'm so used to seeing the English dub, and know the characters with those voices.

With any live action film, regardless of the potential quality of the dub, I always prefer the subtitled version. A human mouth is just so much more emotive than an anime character's mouth, and it is more obvious when a real mouth isn't making the sounds you're hearing. Dubs are just distracting with live action.

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[–] JoeyWheelerFanatic 11 years ago

AGREED! To the thousandth degree :) The Ocean Dub for DBZ was also horrible too compared to the Funimation Dub. Funimation usually never fails, because the company KNOWS how to dub and try to please anime fans.

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[–] j_money77 10 years ago

Subtitle elitists still make me laugh.

It's a personal preference for what you prefer, but it's a rouse to pretend you're getting anything but a translation from subtitles. "It's more natural" is a ruse of an excuse too, for the very reason that, unless you're competent in the language being spoken, it's all just noise to you anyway.

Somehow this ruse continues, hihihi

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[–] cybopath 9 years ago

Often even subtitles lose language's true meaning. You never will truly get everything unless you are fluent and familiar with the culture. British media shown in North America often loses it's meaning with phrases, terms, slangs and cultural references and those two regions speak the same damn language.

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[–] j_money77 12 years ago

I too prefer watching films with a good dub. If it's subtitled, I have to focus on the captions, and this distracts from the visual element, a major element of any film. I actually don't know why more films aren't dubbed. I find with foreign films, I often have to watch the film twice, sometimes just with the commentary on, so I can focus on the visuals instead of constantly having to look at the captions.

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[–] hellblade 12 years ago

Or you could all actually learn to read with sufficient speed. Just putting it out there...

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[–] Diamondback98 12 years ago

Or you could all actually learn to read with sufficient speed. Just putting it out there...

Well, aren't we just the condescending douche nozzle. So sorry others can't meet up to your comprehension standards. Get over yourself as well.

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[–] hellblade 12 years ago

1. Any dubbing is horrible. Period.
2. Subs take getting used to, but that's not an excuse.

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[–] anomale 12 years ago

Hellblade - I'm guessing this thread was a love letter to you.

It doesnt matter how fast you can read, subs will take away from the visuals to some extent. That being said, some of my favorite movies are subbed (Italian, German, Spanish). I've never been one to shy away because of it. However, I have seen Miyazaki's movies dubbed, because I do want to concentrate on the phenomenally beautiful animation. I'm not opposed to viewing them subbed in a repeat viewing, but since a lot of them I watch with my six year old son, that's probably not going to happen. I'd much rather share this experience with him.

I think the OP was referring to the people who come here just to b*tch because they think dubs are far inferior to subs, because it makes them feel superior and they think it makes them sound smarter than anyone who watches dubs. When in reality, they are just compensating, pretentious, and annoying. It's one thing to prefer subs, and a whole other thing entirely to think that makes you better than anyone who doesn't.

Really, I could care less who watches what how. It doesn't mean a damn thing about who's smarter or better, but thinking that it does says a lot.

If dubs bring more awareness to a great film, awesome.

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[–] KentuckyColonel 11 years ago

Didn't Neil Gaiman help with the dub translation for this film? I know that Miyazaki is a genius and what not. But I'll guarantee you that a comparable amount of people would consider Gaiman a genius as well.I also realize that he is only translating. An imperfect art; so what. Where ever you land on dubs, perhaps this one should possible get a pass. Or maybe I have my head shoved up my own rectum.

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[–] j_money77 11 years ago

To the people still railing against dubs hyperbolically, if you prefer subtitles, don't you find it distracting to have to read the subtitles, taking your eye away from the screen and missing out on visual elements of the movie? A good dubbing would remove this obstacle, and not change any of the dialogue...

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[–] hellblade 11 years ago

I really don't. The time to read the subtitle is so short it becomes meaningless. It's basically a semi-conscious reflex action for me. I have to force myself NOT to read them, if the film is in English.

I guess there are cultural differences here though. English-speaking people rarely need subs, so they are not used to them, and many countries (Italy, Germany, Spain, Poland etc.) always dub everything.
However, if you're exposed to subs your entire life, like in my country, they become second nature. A dubbed film would be universally ridiculed here. The only exception are animated movies for young children who are still developing their reading skills.

It's also a great way to learn, or help with learning languages. I learned English almost exclusively through subtitled English movies/TV.
Many studies indicate that excessive dubbing, coupled with localization of software has a detrimental effect on foreign language competency of entire nations.
http://eacea.ec.europa.eu/llp/studies/documents/study_on_the_use_of_subtitling/resume-en.pdf

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[–] j_money77 11 years ago

Well for me, the action of having to focus your eyes, and then brain, on the subtitles, especially if they're placed in the bottom of the frame, is going to distract you from the picture. Anyone who watches movies actively knows it's important to see what's in, and out, of the frame all the time. Even in movies from "lesser" directors like Michael Bay a great deal of care is put into what's left in and out of the picture. How can you really take in and appreciate the deliberate, detailed compositions of greater artists like Miyazaki or Tarkovsky while constantly having to distract yourself to view, and then read, subtitles?
Looking at subtitles can take your attention away from this, sparsed out over a 2-2.5 hour film this requires a lot of distractions from the picture.

The study on subtitling helping people learn languages is intersting, but not really pertinent to what I'm saying. I'm more interested in how it helps/deters from actively watching a movie, not how it helps someone learn a foreign language.

I also don't think there are any cultural barriers. I live in America and the standard for foreign movies released on DVD her is subtitling. Given the option, I prefer dubbing, for the very reasons I've stated before (Aguierre the wrath of god and Let the Right One In are two examples I can think of off the bat where I far prefer the dub over the subtitle, although Aguierre may have originally beeen in English so it may not count.)Of course, I don't want bad dubbing. Seeing lip synching in Solaris or Sansho the Bailiff akin to Gojira isn't what i'm talking about, but a good dubbing would be great.

I find that some people are inexplicably elitist or boastful of prefering subtitles over dubbing, which is laughable to me (like your insinuation that "a dubbed film woul be univerally ridiculed" where you live. That says nothing about the pro/cons about dubbing, and more about the ignorance/close minded attitudes prevalent where you are, if what you say is true.) There's a pro/con argument for each side. I personally think enabling the viewer to better watch the film (since it's a visual medium first) enhances the experience better than keeping the original voices of the actors.

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[–] hellblade 11 years ago

Personally, I'd never accept having Morgan Freeman or Samuel Jackson dubbed, no matter how good the voice actor might be. Just no.
Also, it is never possible to abolutely sync the dub with the movement of the lips, and every dub has this unmistakeable studio-like quality that simply doesn't fit what you're seeing on the screen, especially if the scene has been filmed outside. To me, sound not "fitting" what I see is much more distracting than an occasional glance towards the bottom of the screen. I simply cannot follow the action, it's like somebody is lying to my face, thinking I can't see through the pretense :)

So anyway you put it any kind of adaptation of a foreign film to your language, be it subtitles or dubbing is ultimately disruptive to the experience, so it does come down to personal preference to decide which of these disruptions you're better off with. There's no ignorance or elitism, it is simply a preference for what you're used to.

And since we're on Miyazaki here - Kiki's Delivery Service was also considered by some to be badly dubbed. There are many differences between the English dub of this film and the original Japanese version, most of them due to cultural difference. To me, that seems ignorant - adapting elements of a foreign culture to fit our own instead of taking them at face value and trying to understand their original meaning. The entire feel of the film has been changed. I think that's much worse than missing out on a few nicely-drawn flowers.

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[–] j_money77 11 years ago

Reading subtitles is a lot more than just an occasional glance, it's requires your complete attention.

The point about ignorance was because you said a dub would be universally denounced where you live, except on the grounds that it was done to a children's film. That's needless haughtiness about dubbing.

I haven't seen Kii's Delivery Service yet, but if it was poorly dubbed, that's too bad, I dislike a bad dubbing as much as anyone else; however, it's possible for a subtitle translation to be bad too, so it's a pretty moot point. I find a good dub superior to a good subtitle, but would of course rather read subtitles than have a bad dubbing.

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[–] hellblade 11 years ago

Maybe the phrase "universally ridiculed" was a bit too strong. But it would definitely put people off watching the movie. They want subs, for the reasons I stated, and that's how it is.

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[–] !!!deleted!!! (4524359) 11 years ago

"Reading subtitles is a lot more than just an occasional glance, it's requires your complete attention. "

It really doesn't. I don't even notice I'm reading the subtitles when I'm submerged in the movie. Having grown up with subs my entire life reading subs have become second nature. I can fully focus on the visuals AND follow the subs at the same time. Maybe you're just not as used to reading subtitles or reading in general. For me well over 90% of all the movies I watch are subtitled because american movies are subtitled in my native language on our national tv channels. Even though I understand english I'm pretty sure I still read the subtitles simply because I'm so used to it and that way you don't miss out on any of the dialogue.
What I'm trying to say is that once you're used to it, reading subtitles happens subconsciously so then you're left with only the benefits of listening to everything in its intended language.

I prefer a sub to a dub because of the voices and how they better match what is actually happening on screen. A dub almost always feels .. off to me. I don't have anything against people that prefer dubbing, I just can't understand them despite having heard all their explanations. I guess I just don't agree with you and others that prefer a good dub. I'm yet to hear a dub (even the good ones) that are better than the original voices.

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[–] j_money77 11 years ago

"It really doesn't. I don't even notice I'm reading the subtitles when I'm submerged in the movie. Having grown up with subs my entire life reading subs have become second nature. I can fully focus on the visuals AND follow the subs at the same time. Maybe you're just not as used to reading subtitles or reading in general. For me well over 90% of all the movies I watch are subtitled because american movies are subtitled in my native language on our national tv channels. Even though I understand english I'm pretty sure I still read the subtitles simply because I'm so used to it and that way you don't miss out on any of the dialogue.
What I'm trying to say is that once you're used to it, reading subtitles happens subconsciously so then you're left with only the benefits of listening to everything in its intended language."

Come again...pardon me for not seeing this for a couple of months, but I can't believe you fully focus on both the visuals and subtitles at the same time, it's just not possible to devote 100% of your attention to both. And I really am at a disbelief that you think I'm not used to reading. What a hilarious assumption.

I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you over how much I read or whatever, but trust me, I read a LOT and I do have to watch a lot of movies with subtitles, since I'm only fluent in English and have a wide interest in films from other parts of the world.

In fact, I've been watching subtitled films since I was a wee-lad, and no, it doesn't become subconscious to fully devote your attention to both the frame of the film (and all of the visual details that entails) and the words in one specific part of the frame. That's simply an impossibility, when I watch foreign films (that are too often not presented with a quality dubbing) I often find I have to rewatch later to soak in the visuals that I miss out on by having to read the subtitle in the lower section of the screen. T his takes away an important element from the movies, the visuals, the actors expressions, a glance, what's in the frame, what's left out of the frame, all of these are important details, some even obsessed over by filmmakers, and you can miss out on so many crucial moments in movies like these by constantly having to shift your eyes and focus your brain on written language on the bottom of the screen.

It isn't so bad with films low in dialogue, like Bela Tarr's or Andrei Tarkovskys (although a lot of KINO translations of his movies seem piss poor and riddled with grammatical errors anyway,) and maybe it doesn't matter as much for ur standard piffle or doggerel, but for serious works, it takes a bit away.

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[–] JTurner82 8 years ago

It's not "poorly dubbed." Kiki's dub does take occasional liberties and adds a bit more comedy from Phil Hartman, but it's not at all bad. In fact, I'd argue it's pretty damn good. Likewise, Laputa's dub is great for both Hamill and Leachman as well as Hisaishi's rescore. Both really added to the picture.

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[–] dpm12 8 years ago

The few changes made in the Kiki dub, made it a better film. Jiji was boring and served no purpose in the original Japanese language version, whereas Phil Hartman actually made Jiji cool and fun. That dub I find better than the original, and this is coming from someone who usually prefers subs.

In case I don't see ya---Good afternoon, good evening, and good night.

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[–] raven1066 8 years ago

I've only ever watched the dubbed version.

"Time is the fire in which we burn."

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[–] PounamuKnight 11 years ago

can't get the full experience

The "full experience" is knowing the Japanese language. Second best experience is subbed. Third best is the mute button. Forth best is dubbed.

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[–] alberikc 11 years ago

I am not a hater but let me add this. It's not about being high and mighty, I simply prefer Japanese because it is original and 'untainted' for me. If I choose English dub I get distracted by voices immediately thinking 'oh, that's Billy Bob ... Gillian ... DiMaggio'.

And after countless viewings, it's been a while since I've stopped using subtitles.

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[–] j_money77 11 years ago

Well if were just talking Princess Mononokee, the Japanese is no less dubbed than the English is...

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[–] Milo_Milosovic 11 years ago

Personaly, I alway watch films with subs. I don't find they distract from the visuals and with dialogue I want to hear the actors natural voice, its tones and inflections.I have watched some horrific dubs with bad voice overs and with terrible translations. For example, I have watched a couple of films with native speakers and they spent a lot of time pointing out that the translations were often lazy shorthand or just plain wrong.

Miyazaki films actually tend to take great care with the English dubs employing decent translators, writes an overseeing director and often good voice talent. I'd go as far to say that dubbed Miyazaki films have better English voiceovers than many native animations.

The other point to remember is that dubbing films like this open them up to a younger audience who would be too intimidated. My young daughter loves many Ghibli films and I'm interested to see how she reacts to them in their native language when she's a little older.

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[–] j_money77 11 years ago

When it comes to a bad translation, a subtitle or dubbing is no different, a subtitled film can be just as poorly translated as a dubbed film.

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[–] CowboyYojimbo 11 years ago

This argument never made sense to me. It's an animated film, both groups of actors are doing the same thing. It's not like in a live action film where the voice actors arent as involved in the scene.

Also you can't tell which acting is better unless you are fluent in both languages spoken. There is subtlety in how some lines may be spoken. Tone is important. If you don't know the language you miss a lot of that.

I also agree with the sub being better on such a visual film. The "read faster" argument also falls flat because delivery is important. Some lines are to be delivered slow.
- C.Y.

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[–] Margifish 11 years ago

I like both dubs and subs actually. Now, as someone else mentioned, when it comes to live-action movies, I prefer subtitles. Some anime dubs *are* atrocious (the Weiss Kreuz dub immediately springs to mind...it was so horrible it was like they didn't bother to even watch the original; characters' names weren't even pronounced correctly), but some anime dubs are very well done, and I even prefer the english dub cast because I think their voices are a better fit to the characters (the Hellsing dub, for example, I think the dub cast is better than the Japanese ones, but frankly...the story itself is set in England, so hearing the characters speak in the language they actually *would* be speaking in the story is appropriate to me. Plus Crispin Freeman is a great voice actor and is perfect as Alucard).

As for Miyazaki's films...I've only seen this one, Howl's moving castle (which, don't get me wrong, I liked it, but having read the original novel, it irked me that he changed so much from the book to suit his own tastes) and Spirited Away. And with Princess Mononoke and Spirited Away, I don't get why people hate on the dubs. They were very well done in my opinion. You can like subs over dubs without being an elitist snob, and liking dubs over subs doesn't make you an idiot; different people have different tastes, and lumping a bunch of people under one umbrella is never a wise thing.

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[–] melkersmejl 11 years ago

You gotta get used to it.
I don't even "read" the subs. I just glance at them and that's that. And I'm not even a really fast reader.
But since I'm from Sweden I grew up with reading subs so yeah, I got used to it and I would NEVER watch a dubbed movie if I could choose subs. American/swedish voices would totally ruin the mood.

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[–] thelovebat 11 years ago

I would just like to chime in to this debate by saying that the creator of Cowboy Bebop (which is arguably one of the most popular animes created), has stated in the past that he believes that the English dub of the series is better than the original dub.

If an English dub is good, don't fret whether its better to watch subbed or dubbed. I'm sure there are minor differences in the dialogue/translation but unless the dub is Sailor Moon bad or laughably bad like the videogame Chaos Wars just watch the dub. Unless English isn't your first language.

Voice acting is harder than it looks and a lot of hard work is put into it by the veteran voice actors. While almost every dub of anime from the 90s is pure love or hate with the quality of the dub, they produced some of the most quality dubs in existence. I understand people want their first experience with an anime to have the experience be as close as possible to what the Japanese writers intended, but it can only go so far to the point that the differences between the original script and the translated dub dialogue are really only marginally different. It just really isn't worth worrying over IMO. Just do research into whether the dub is good or bad and how accurate the subs are, and make your decision based on that which way to go.

"Too bad you can't reload your game and try again." Cassidy- Fallout 2

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