I had the distinct impression from the portrayals in "Kundun" of conversations among the monks that, while they of course had rules and commandments to follow, that they were also pragmatic and capable of bending their own rules to deal with difficult situations.
I don't recall the exact situation, but there was a scene in which Kundun says to one of his advisors "That is a lie of course, but these are difficult times" in regard to something he said or was going to say to the Chinese, I believe it was. This kind of thing is understandable and even admirable for a people being crushed by one of the world's bloodiest thug dictators, Mao.
By the way, the portrayal of Mao in "Kundun" was fascinating. Does anyone know if this portrayal was anything close to way the real Mao operated. If this portrayal IS anything like the real guy, he was quite a manipulator. He used what could initially be rational arguments and the soft touch to persuade his subject to his point of view, but there was always the threat of the Chinese army, death and destruction. His suggestion to Kundun that 'religion is a poison', while presented by Mao as some kind of intellectual argument, was in fact a direct attack on the most fundamental of Tibetan traditions and it was evident in the context of the time that Mao was committing the Chinese army to try to ensure that the 'poison' would be removed one way or another.
"Kundun" is, in some ways, one of Scorsese's most ambitious and successful films, which is saying something! He should have been nominated for, and won, the Academy Award for Best Director for this film--imagine delivering a film with such performances from a cast of largely non-actors. This was the art of film direction practiced at hits highest level.
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beztvarny
19 years ago
First thing upon seeing Mao was "He's got a funny hairdo!" Based upon the various pictures and propagnada from other movies I've seen, he's dead on....appearance wise. If he was anything like the way he acted in real life, I think he's a pain in the @$$. Organized religion is a "crutch" so to speak, but how many Buddhists will SAY they are Buddhist? It's a way of life, a path, not a strict thing like..>Catholicism, with all the dos and do nots. I know there are Buddhist scriptures, and places of worship, but there are also plain places in nature, like the rock pile, where one takes a stone and lays it atop the others. Its the not-too-ascetic things that make a way of life bearable. To each his own, and to feck with Mao.
I was put on this earth to comfort the disturbed and disturb the comforted
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kathywelch
19 years ago
"pragmatic and capable of bending their own rules to deal with difficult situations"
I recall reading about an Everest expedition, where a climbing party was awaiting the arrival of the local Buddhist priest to bless the group before their summit attempt. Word came that the priest had fallen ill and couldn't come to give the blessing. The foreign climbers were taken aback, thinking that the native Sherpas, being quite devout, wouldn't climb without the blessing and the summit attempt would be ruined. But the Sherpas said, "Don't worry, the mountain knows we meant to do have the ritual and receive the blessing, and it knows we'll do it later, when we can." The climb went on.
This strikes me as both devoutly religious and eminently pragmatic - nothing stiff-necked about these guys.
Too bad the false pragmatism of the Maoists wasn't/isn't as flexible...
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aamirabbas
18 years ago
Communists have always believed that religion is a bad thing and needs to be marginalized or eradicated since it is also beyong reform. This is due to the negative role religion was playing in Russian,Chinese and Tibetan societies. I understand where that thinkning comes from since I come from Pakistan and there some people abuse religion for very nefarious purposes. However the view in Pakistan is that religion-abusers need to be stopped and negative practices should be reformed. Communists held that religion should simply be abolished.
On paper, there are many Communist/Socialist theories that make a lot of sense, it was their implementation that was utterly wrong. Even Dalai Lama seems sympathetic to Socialism but once he meets Mao, then Lama's views change.
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budddha5
17 years ago
This is why Communism does NOT exist on this planet. The ONLY place it exists is on PAPER. Sure, if you read it, it does sound like a wonderful system. BUT....the founders of Communism forgot one thing.....HUMAN NATURE, because of human nature, it does not exist. What you see in Cuba for instance, is a Socialist Dictator, China a Socialist Politburo.
Peace,
Michael Tenzin
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conductor71-2
16 years ago
> This is due to the negative role religion was playing in Russian,Chinese and Tibetan societies.
NOT AT ALL. Pffff... Why some people can be so ignorant?
The communist ideology was created by a European, indeed an atheist German Jew. The negation of Religion, the analysis of the social role of religion as "opium" comes from Karl Marx.
> I understand where that thinkning comes from since I come from Pakistan and there some people abuse religion for very nefarious purposes.
That comes from the German Jews in the 19th century trying to construct their national identity out-side from Judaism, and from the oppressive nature Christianity had become in Europe.
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conductor71-2
16 years ago
> By the way, the portrayal of Mao in "Kundun" was fascinating.
Yes, and apart from the Panchen Lama not being there (but then, the Panchen Lama is not anywhere else in the film, so what would be the need of adding that), it almost comes out directly from the autobiography of the Dalai Lama, including the odd details of Mao's clothing (his sleeves mysteriously worn out, the ultra-shiny shoes, etc).
> Does anyone know if this portrayal was anything close to way the real Mao operated.
Quite close.
> If this portrayal IS anything like the real guy, he was quite a manipulator.
Well, he was a genius in that. That scene should not be seen as "communism vs. buddhism," it's a drama between a secular cunning pragmatic politician and an idealist spiritual leader, even a bit naive.
> "Kundun" is, in some ways, one of Scorsese's most ambitious and successful films, which is saying something!
It is. It's his highest achievement in his art, and according to himself his own favorite.
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artihcus022
16 years ago
> Does anyone know if this portrayal was anything close to way the real Mao operated.
Quite close.
I quite liked the
Citizen Kane citation with Mao being introduced standing in front of a giant version of his famous portait. The Mao of this film which you say is accurate seems almost metrosexual in his charm. Not effeminate or anything but someone very self-confident and charismatic.
That scene should not be seen as "communism vs. buddhism," it's a drama between a secular cunning pragmatic politician and an idealist spiritual leader, even a bit naive.Well Mao said in the previous meeting that his mother was a Buddhist and that he respected Buddha or something so Scorsese doesn't allow for it to be seen like that. It's a well played scene by Robert Lin, about how he essentially cons the Dalai Lama.
"Ça va by me, madame...Ça va by me!" -
The Red Shoes
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conductor71-2
16 years ago
> Well Mao said in the previous meeting that his mother was a Buddhist and that he respected Buddha or something so Scorsese doesn't allow for it to be seen like that.
Nope. That is exactly the way a secular cunning pragmatic politician would behave facing an idealist spiritual leader, even a bit naive. The Dalai Lama even takes that seriously for quite a while, even after that Mao tells him "religion is poison." He continues to write letters to Mao believing that Mao would be listening to him, he continues to believe that the problem in Tibet was not really because of the Communist party itself, but because of the local generals misbehaving. You can say he was very well manipulated.
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artihcus022
16 years ago
So Mao's mom wasn't Buddhist in real life? I know that Mao himself never gave religion any serious consideraton in his life.
He continues to write letters to Mao believing that Mao would be listening to him, he continues to believe that the problem in Tibet was not really because of the Communist party itself, but because of the local generals misbehaving. You can say he was very well manipulated.
He certainly was and so was I for that matter. I actually thought that Mao was seriously considering working with the Dalai Lama.
"Ça va by me, madame...Ça va by me!" - The Red Shoes
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conductor71-2
16 years ago
> So Mao's mom wasn't Buddhist in real life?
No she was. But what's the point? He used the fact that his mother was a buddhist to manipulate, or at least gain the trust of the young and rather naive idealist.
> He certainly was and so was I for that matter. I actually thought that Mao was seriously considering working with the Dalai Lama.
Well, since the film doesn't care at all about the political aspects, since it concentrates on the moral and spiritual journey of the Dalai Lama to become really the Dalai Lama, it simply don't get into the most controversial figure in the Chinese invasion of Tibet; the Panchen Rimpoche, who was historically with the Dalai Lama when he met Mao.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panchen_Lama
http://www.tibet.com/PL/warning.html
The Panchen Rimpoche traditionally, today usually called the Panchen Lama, historically was not a political authority in Tibet, though that position was considered the second highest priest in the Tibetan Buddhism (that was only a religious statue, and not a political one that the Dalai Lama assumed in the 13th century). It was actually not the CCP but the Republic of China who tried to put the 10th Panchen Lama in their control as a way to interfere to Tibetan politics. The PRC followed that tactics, and after the exile of the Dalai Lama had taken a position that most recognized as a tool, or a puppet of Beijing who gave him some nominal political authority. But to tame the Panchen Lama was not as easy as Beijing seems t have thought.
But anyway, though Mao at least seemed to have tried to gain the trust of the Dalai Lama, on the other hand Beijing was moving to give the Panchen Lama an almost equal political status, so that they can manipulate the Tibetan people through him in case the Dalai Lama was too difficult to handle. So it is safe to say he was not as serious as the Dalai Lama had thought.
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