MovieChat Forums > Kundun (1998) Discussion > Dalai Lama and Mao Chedong

Dalai Lama and Mao Chedong


That's one of my favourite scenes. When Mao says something along the lines of "we're going to liberate you" and the Dalai Lama replies "you cannot liberate me. I can liberate myself".

This demonstrates the deep contrast of the two belief systems: On the one hand, it's the totalitarian belief system of Mao, according to which people are dummies and they need a benevolent dictator to take care of them, and who they must never question. On the other hand is the Buddist system, according to which people are responsible for themselves.

It is this latter culture that's being percecuted by the former. For 58 years now...

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[deleted]

You live in a country where the media, education and all forms of information are regulated by the government in an effort to prevent the "wrong" information getting out. Even athletes competing in the 2008 Olympics have been forced by Beijing to sign agreements NOT to criticize the government of China while there. Your government fired upon UNARMED students at Tienanmen Square, killing hundreds.

NOTHING you have to say can be taken seriously. You have no basis for an opinion as you have none that a communist liar didn't give you. Further, that "2oth century's most important figures" is also one of the 20th century's biggest murderers and if there is a hell he's burning in it now. Your country is directly responsible for the murder of over 1 million Tibetans and all Chinese carry their blood on their hands if they deny HISTORICAL FACT.





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[deleted]

[deleted]

Nope, wrong.

Quite simply, you're an idiot and as a rule, I don't listen to communist idiots. Everything communism has tried has been a complete and utter failure. It is a repressive and brutal imposition on human rights and dignity. China has even abandoned it in favor of simple dictatorship in the form of selective oligarchy. The millions of completely brainwashed Chinese are simply proof that totalitarian regimes are an affront of humanity and only guilty of mindlessness. The Chinese replaced religion of God with religion of Mao the murderer. The communists achieved nothing that time wouldn't have done for them. In fact, they needlessly destroyed the lives of millions of Chinese AND Tibetans. There isn't a Chinese communist worthy of wiping the ass of the Dalai Lama, you included.




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[deleted]

Because the kind of business China does with Tibet RIGHT NOW is faaaar worse than no business at all; because the business China does are for the benefit of the Chinese settlers and the detriment of the Tibetan natives, who are systematically marginalised; because the business China does is to pillage the Tibetan resources (including tourism). Satisfied? I didn't mention freedom or live without fear, I know that they're irrelevant for you.

You're doing it again, "they're savages, they need us, etc"

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[deleted]

From The International Commission of Jurists

http://www.icj.org/news.php3?id_article=3430&lang=en


There is prima facie evidence that the Chinese Communists have by acts of genocide attempted to destroy the Tibetan nation and the Buddhist religion in Tibet, the International Commission of Jurists announced in a preliminary report "The Question of Tibet and The Rule of Law" published here today. There is evidence, the report states, that the Chinese have by killing Tibetans and by the forcible removal of Tibetan children committed acts contrary to the Genocide Convention of 1948. There is also evidence that these acts were intentionally directed towards the destruction of the Tibetan religion and the Tibetan nation. The 208-page report, which also considers the evidence on other violations of human rights and examines the international status of Tibet, has been sent to the United Nations and to all U. N. delegations.

The International Commission based its report on extensive materials and documents and on the findings presented to it last month by Mr. Purshottam Trikamdas, a Senior Advocate at the Supreme Court of India and former Secretary to Mahatma Gandhi. Mr. Trikamdas was asked three months ago by the Commission to investigate the matter. Working with a small team of experts, Mr. Trikamdas submitted in person last month the results of his investigation.

At the same time the Commission announced the formation of a "Legal Inquiry Committee on Tibet" to continue the investigation and submit a final report. The names are to be announced shortly.

The report consists of four parts. Details on the religion and socio-political structure of Tibet, a chronology of events for the past twelve years and an account of those leading up to the flight of the Dalai Lama to India are given in the first part. The fourth part of over 100 pages of documents sets out the treaties governing the international position of Tibet and also contains statements by the Dalai Lama, Mr. Nehru, and Chinese communist spokesmen concerning the Tibetan uprising. A Manifesto and a Memorandum on the events in Tibet by Tibetan Leaders are also published.

The second and central part of the report considers the evidence available so far concerning alleged violations by the Chinese People's Republic of a series of important international instruments. Amongst those considered are the Seventeen-Point Agreement between Tibet and Communist China which Tibet was forced to sign in 1951. The Commission report lists details of the violation of the Agreement, including those guaranteeing autonomy to Tibet and the religious and social rights of the Tibetans and especially notes that "Violation of the 1951 Agreement by China can be regarded as a release of the Tibetan government from its obligations, with the result that Tibet regained the sovereignty which she surrendered under that Agreement... For this reason the violations of the Agreement by China amount to more than a matter of domestic concern between Tibet and China. What is at stake is the very existence of Tibet as a member of the family of nations, and this matter concerns the whole family of nations."

On the question of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the question of Genocide the report by the International Commission concludes: "Any systematic violation of human rights in any part of the World should, it is submitted, be a matter for discussion by the United Nations... Most people," the report goes on, "will agree that in the sphere of human rights, some rights are fundamental. The rights of the Tibetans which appear to have been ruthlessly violated are the most fundamental - even that of life itself. With violations of this gravity it is not a question of human rights being modified to meet the requirements of local conditions. It is a question of conduct which shocks the civilised world and does not even need to be fitted into a legal category. The evidence points to a systematic design to eradicate the separate, national, cultural and religious life of Tibet... It is submitted, with a full appreciation of the gravity of this accusation, that the evidence points at least to a prima facie case of genocide against the People's Republic of China. This case merits full investigation by the United Nations."

The third part of the Commission's report studies the position of Tibet in international law. The Commission feels that although, due to its peculiar history and local conditions, the international position of Tibet is difficult to appraise it is clear that Tibet has been to all intents and purposes an independent country and has enjoyed a large degree of sovereignty. The research undertaken by the Commission, the report states, clearly shows that it could be difficult for the People's Republic of China to dismiss the case by using the plea of 'domestic jurisdiction'.

The International Commission emphasized that the report is a preliminary one and does not prejudge in any way the recommendations and conclusions which will be made in due course by the nearly-formed Legal Inquiry Committee on Tibet. The Committee will collect, obtain and examine any evidence present and future connected with the Tibetan question and it was announced that it would welcome any statements and documents related to the investigation.


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Famine In Tibet

I. CONTEXT Tibet knew its first famine during 1960-62, as a result of the Chinese invasion of 1950. The food shortage occurred because Chinese colonizers settled massively, increasing the population, and because of the changes imposed on Tibetan traditional agriculture by Mao’s “Great Leap Forward.” Death Roll Accurate estimations and data about Tibetan victims of the Chinese genocide are hard to find, given that China provides biased information. However, associations like “Friends of Tibet” estimate that out of the 1.2 million deaths, 343,151 were caused by famine. Unfortunately, no further information is available on the gender, age or/and class of the victims.

II. ECOLOGICAL CHANGES Tibet was ecologically stable before the communist Chinese invasion in 1950. The vegetation was sparse, but the land supported a diverse wildlife and famine was unknown. Because Tibetans followed the Buddhist principle that forbids them to disturb the earth, they exploited few resources. This fragile ecology was irreversibly destroyed as a result of the Chinese incursion, as they deforested parts of the plateau to build hydroelectric plants, for example. Geography Tibet is located on the highest plateau (about 472,000-sq mi.) in the world at a height of 12,000 feet, in the Himalayas. India borders the country, south and west, Nepal and Bhutan, south, and China, north and east.

Climate The famine in Tibet was not linked to a particular natural disaster, since it was man-made. However, the climate is dry and cold with an average annual temperature of 34 F. Therefore the soil is frozen eight to ten months a year and resources are limited.


III. SOCIO ECONOMIC CONDITIONS Land Tenure Before the Chinese invasion, Tibet had a feudal land tenure system, which structure resembled the one in Europe during the Middle Age, but was not as inhumane. The land belonged to the state (30%), to monasteries (40%), and to nobility. It was then divided between big landowners and smaller ones whom had a strip of their own, but were obliged to provide the nobility with service. Thus, the traditional society was composed of a small group of noble families and a large and poor peasantry.

Among these peasants were both nomadic herders and those who practiced a form of subsistence farming. Tenants held their lands on the estates of aristocrats and monasteries, and paid rent to the estate-holders, in kind or by sending a member of the family to work as a domestic servant or an agricultural laborer. In addition, a tenth of the harvest went to the government as a tax and the rest of the crops (except what was needed for individual subsistence) was then stored in silos made out of stones. These were used as reserves for the years of food shortage, since the dry and fresh climate allows a quasi eternal conservation. The serfs lived in family unit and worked the feudal lord’s land as such. They paid rent and taxes in the form of labor, as opposed to money.

The main crop was barley, which requires only three months to produce given that the climate allows no more than one crop a year. Therefore the peasants were not (as said by the Chinese) overworked or exploited. The herders on the other hand, were not tight to a land since they were nomadic people. Traditionally they did not own their cattle, which belonged to rich families, but upon agreement, they could keep the eventual increase in flock.

Chinese Invasion On 7 October 1950, 40,000 Chinese troops attacked Eastern Tibet's provincial capital of Chamdo, from eight directions. The small Tibetan force (troops and militia) were quickly defeated. In 1959, due to Mao’s Great Leap Forward the Chinese government confiscated the land from the Tibetan nobles, to redistribute it to the peasants. The latter, as well as nomads, lost freedom of movement and were ordered into communes, leaving great number of livestock to die. The Chinese authority, in their urge to develop Tibet economically, required the peasants to switch the crops to wheat, which never grew at a height of 12,000 feet. They had been told that the barley crops would be theirs, but when the harvest came, two-third was requisitioned for and by the Chinese.

As a result, tens of thousands of Tibetans starved to death between 1959 and 1961. In addition, the Chinese military and civilian personnel were fed on the state buffer stocks and forced the Tibetan population to sell them their personal holding of grains for nominal prices. Genocide Although the famine in Tibet seems to be linked to other factors than the genocide, the two cannot be separated. The food shortage was caused both by the drastic changes in land tenure and by the desire of the Chinese to exterminate the Tibetan people. In fact, no Chinese suffered from the famine they created. One sixth of the Tibetan population has been killed, shot, hung, strangled, drowned, boiled, raped, buried alive, starved, mutilated, or burned alive. Over 1.2 million Tibetans have been, up until today, victims of the “final solution” started by the communist China. Close to 600 thousands monks died in working camps, in prison or on the road to exile.


IV. FAILURE OF ENTITLEMENTS In this case, the failure of all four entitlement is linked to the Chinese invasion and its genocide of the Tibetan people. Land Most of the fertile lands in the valleys were given to the Chinese settlers, driving the Tibetans to more and more barren lands. Evidence also shows that the primary beneficiaries of China's new open economic policy were the Chinese settlers in Tibet. Trade Tibetan economy had a long tradition of trade with India. They exported rough material like wool and imported manufactured goods such as sugar, noodles, and shovels.

China soon discouraged this market by imposing high taxes on these goods and eventually closed the markets where the trading took place. Wage Before Mao’s reforms, the traditional Tibetan was not paid and provided services in exchange for his food. The relationship between landlords and peasants was humane. Workers could provide services when convenient, since they usually lived on the lands. But as a result of the Chinese policies, workers were dispatched where needed, regardless of the distance they had to walk. They began to be paid and food was supplied in rations. Needless to say that wages were a way for the Chinese government to repress Tibetan people, since any disobedience was deducted from their pay.

Welfare Famine and starvation were unheard of in independent Tibet, since people could borrow grain from the buffer stock, held by the district administrations, monasteries, aristocrats, and rich farmers. These reserves were stored in case of food shortage and served as emergency “welfare.” However, as said above, the Chinese authority largely used them to feed themselves and eventually totally confiscated it. V. CONCLUSION Although the traditional Tibetan feudal system seemed archaic to the Chinese who wanted to modernize the country and “make it benefit from communism,” it was in harmony with their environment. Resources were limited, but famine was unheard of. The Chinese invasion of 1950, their massive settlement, and their lack of knowledge about the environment ruined the fragile ecosystem of the country.

Furthermore in their urge to capitalize Tibetan resources they created serious environmental problems and polluted eastern Tibet. The reforms in land tenure were indeed to benefit the colonizers who ended up with the best properties. Tibetan peasants were assigned to communal lands, which were merely labor camps. In addition, the sudden switch from subsistence agriculture to cash cropping gave no results and the restrictions imposed on nomadic herders resulted in the loss of livestock. The desire of the Chinese to get rid of the Tibetan people led to unequal food distribution, as well as unequal lands distribution. Therefore, this famine is linked to both the dehumanization of an entire people and to inappropriate reforms in agriculture. Since 1950, few accurate data are available on the Tibetan genocide due to the fact that Chinese communicate biased information. Exact numbers such as the death roll or the year famine happened, are hard to find. Humanitarian organizations and the Tibetan Government in Exile do provide estimations, but the Chinese authority still denies them.





Bibliography

“Les Amis du Tibet.” Available from: http://www.amis-tibet.lu Shakya, Tsering. The Dragon in the Land of Snows. New York: Columbia University Press, 1999. Stein, R.A. Tibetan Civilization. Translated by J.E. Stapleton Driver. Stanford: Stanford University Press, 1972. Thomas, Lowell Jr. The Silent War in Tibet. New York: Doubleday & Company Inc., 1959. “Tibet les Droits de l’Homme.” Available from http://www.mabbh.org “Today’s Tibet.” Available from: http://www.friendsoftibet.org Tucci, Giuseppe. TIBET Land of Snows. Translated by J.E. Stapleton Driver. New York: Stein and Day, 1967.


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[deleted]

No communist sources, no Chinese sources. Now what, you pathetic Tibet fanboy? I'll tackle your newest round of propaganda as soon as I can. It seems even more ridiculous and easy to debunk.


Your childish diatribes using idiotic insults aside, EVERY source you cited is left wing, overtly socialist and anti-American. Hardly the stuff of balanced opinion.

Nice try.

Gotta challenge for you.

PROVE to us that the Japanese committed atrocities in Nanjing during their occupation. They say it's all lies.







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[deleted]






United Nations General Assembly - Resolution 2079 (XX)


New York, 1965

The General Assembly

Bearing in mind the principles relating to human rights and fundamental freedoms set forth in the Charter of the United Nations and proclaimed in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights,

Reaffirming its resolutions 1353 (XIV) of 21 October 1959 and 1723 (XVI) of 20 December 1961 on the question of Tibet,

Gravely concerned at the continued violation of the fundamental rights and freedoms of the people of Tibet and the continued suppression of their distinctive cultural and religious life, as evidenced by the exodus of refugees to the neighboring countries,

1) Deplores the continued violation of the fundamental rights and freedoms of the people of Tibet;

2) Reaffirms that respect for the principles of the Charter of the United Nations and of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is essential for the evolution of a peaceful world order based on the rule of law;

3) Declares its conviction that the violation of human rights and fundamental freedoms in Tibet and the suppression of the distinctive cultural and religious life of its people increase international tension and embitter relations between peoples;

4) Solemnly renews its call for the cessation of all practices which deprive the Tibetan people of the human rights and fundamental freedoms which they have always enjoyed;

5) Appeals to all States to use their best endeavors to achieve the purposes of the present resolution.



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[deleted]


and when presented from credible sources, you dismiss them out of hand. Frankly, you've been owned! The UN and The International Commission of Jurists are FAR more credible than you or your communist government of goons and thugs. (Gonna sue me now? lol) You fall for the tactic of the truly desperate and ignorant....you attack the source when you can't fight the information. We're done because after proving you the fool you are, there's simply nothing left to do.




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[deleted]

Even though it's not worth my time to debunk the "facts" of biased documents, I'll do so after I do more research. Keep your eyes here.


My facts are from independent sources....the UN and the International Commission of Jurists. They are NOT biased. None of them are from Tibetan or pro-Tibet sources. You're looking pretty stupid to claim they are.


Unless you can provide the same, don't waste MY time.


I'm not interested in reading anything from a communist or Chinese source.




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Jurists Call for Referendum on Status of Tibet


I. Executive Summary

This report examines the situation of the rule of law and human rights in Tibet, including self-determination and other collective rights; economic, social and cultural rights; and civil and political rights. Although the report discusses the entire period since China's invasion of central Tibet in 1950, its focus is on events of recent years.

The report finds that repression in Tibet has increased steadily since the 1994 Third National Forum on Work in Tibet, a key conclave at which senior officials identified the influence of the exiled Dalai Lama, the leading figure in Tibetan Buddhism, as the root of Tibet's instability, and mapped out a new strategy for the region. The Forum endorsed rapid economic development, including the transfer of more Chinese into the Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR), and a campaign to curtail the influence of the Dalai Lama and crack down on dissent. The results of the Forum included: heightened control on religious activity and a denunciation campaign against the Dalai Lama unprecedented since the Cultural Revolution; an increase in political arrests; stepped up surveillance of potential dissidents; and increased repression of even non-political protest. Since the beginning of 1996, there has been further escalation of repression in Tibet, marked by an intensive re-education drive in the monasteries at which monks were told that they would be required to sign loyalty pledges or face expulsion, a clampdown on information coming from Tibet, the sentencing of a senior religious leader, and a ban on photographs of the Dalai Lama in public places. The eight year old boy designated by the Dalai Lama as the reincarnation of the Panchen Lama, the second-most important figure in Tibet's Buddhist hierarchy, remains in detention. At the same time, Chinese leaders have begun a campaign against certain aspects of traditional Tibetan culture identified as both obstacles to development and links to Tibetan nationalism, an in 1997 labelled Buddhism as a "foreign culture."

These abuses of human rights and assaults on Tibetan culture flow from the denial of the Tibetan people's most fundamental right - to exercise self-determination. It is to maintain its alien and unpopular rule that China has sought to suppress Tibetan nationalist dissent and neutralise Tibetan culture. It is to colonise unwilling subjects that China has encouraged and facilitated the movement of Chinese into Tibet, where they dominate politics, security and the economy.

Autonomy

The autonomy accorded to the TAR and other Tibetan autonomous areas in the PRC Constitution and laws is limited, as most local powers are subject to central approval. The actual extent to which Tibetans control their own affairs is even more circumscribed, however, due to the centralized dominance of the Communist Party (CCP), and the exclusion of Tibetans from meaningful participation in regional and local administration. When Tibetans are in positions of nominal authority, they are often shadowed by more powerful Chinese officials. Every local organ is shadowed by a CCP committee or "leading group," which does not function in keeping with concepts of autonomy. The army and the police are dominated by Chinese. While Tibet has often been divided, Tibetan self-rule is also undermined by the current partition of Tibetan territory which separates most Tibetans among four Chinese provinces in which Tibetans constitute small minorities.

Threats to Tibetan Identity

In 1959 the United Nations General Assembly called "for respect for the fundamental human rights of the Tibetan people and for their distinctive cultural and religious life." In 1961 and 1965 the Assembly again lamented "the suppression of the distinctive cultural and religious life" of the Tibetan people. In 1991 the Sub-Commission on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities of the UN Commission on Human Rights was still "[c]oncerned at the continuing reports of violations of fundamental human rights and freedoms which threaten the distinct cultural, religious and national identity of the Tibetan people." Today certain Chinese policies continue to erode or threaten to erode the distinctive elements of the Tibetan identity and culture. These policies include:

Population Transfer

Since 1950 there has been a large influx of Chinese into Tibet, resulting from several factors: government policy and programmes to transfer Chinese, particularly cadres and professionals, to the TAR and other Tibetan regions; government encouragement of voluntary migration; work units bringing ordinary labourers to Tibet for construction projects; and the market-driven migration of ordinary Chinese. New Chinese towns have been created. Tibetan urban centres have been sinicised. In eastern Tibet, Tibetan lands have also been appropriated for agriculture. Where Chinese have settled, they dominate commerce and are at the centre of development strategies. The 1994 Third Work Forum endorsed and accelerated the movement of Chinese to the TAR. Estimates suggest that Chinese now account for one-third of the total population of all areas with Tibetan autonomous status (compared to 6 to 10% in 1949) and for 12 to 14% of the population of the TAR (compared to 0.1%).

Tibet's Cultural Heritage

A key component of Tibet's unique culture was undermined in the early years of Chinese rule by the destruction of the monastic system. The Cultural Revolution continued that process with the physical destruction of Tibet's unique religious buildings and monuments and an assault on the cultural identity of individual Tibetans. By its end, Tibet's physical and material culture was visibly decimated; few of Tibet's thousands of monasteries survived. Since 1979 the Chinese government has allowed some cultural freedom in Tibet and many monasteries have been partially restored, but permitted cultural activities are restricted and purged of any nationalist content. Chinese modernisation since 1979 has destroyed much of the surviving traditional Tibetan secular architecture in urban areas. In Lhasa, many Tibetan houses have been demolished and entire neighbourhoods razed.

Language

The predominance of the Chinese language in education, commerce, and administration, combined with global modernization, compels Tibetans to master Chinese and is marginalising the Tibetan language. Virtually all classes in secondary and higher education in the TAR, including such subjects as Tibetan art, are taught in Chinese. Recent measures - apparently following a Communist Party decision linking use of Tibetan language to pro-independence sentiments - include the shutting of experimental middle school classes in Tibetan in the TAR and a further downgrading of the use of Tibetan in education generally.

Development

The pattern of development of Tibet, while materially beneficial in its transfer to Tibet of modern technologies of health care, transport and communications, has marginalized Tibetans, and excluded them from effective participation, which is an intrinsic aspect of development. The livelihood of most Tibetans, who live in small rural communities, has been neglected, receiving little of the Chinese investment. The relative poverty of Tibetans, the exploitation of Tibetan resources for China's development, and the settlement of considerable numbers of Chinese in new urban centres impact negatively on Tibetan communities.

Environment

In forty years, most Tibetan wildlife has been destroyed and much of the forest has been cut, watersheds and hillslopes eroded and downstream flooding heightened. The most extensive environmental impact of Chinese practice is the widespread degradation of the rangelands, resulting in desertification of large areas capable until recently of sustaining both wild and domestic herds. The extent of grassland deterioration has reached a point where, unless measures are taken soon, the long term viability of nomadic Tibetan civilization could be brought into question.

Individual Rights

The Role of the Judiciary

A primary stated goal of the justice system in the TAR is the repression of Tibetan opposition to Chinese rule. A judiciary subservient to Communist Party dictates results in abuses of human rights in all of China, but in Tibet the problem is particularly severe due to China's campaign against Tibetan nationalism. The recent "Strike Hard" anti-crime campaign has enlisted the judiciary further in the campaign against "splittism." Many Tibetans, particularly political detainees, are deprived of even elementary safeguards of due process.

Right to Education

The Chinese government has made great strides in providing compulsory primary education to Tibetan children. The education system in Tibet, however, puts Tibetan children at a structural disadvantage compared to Chinese children. The exclusive use of the Chinese language as the medium of instruction in middle and secondary schools in the TAR, the low enrolment and high drop-out rate among Tibetans, the low quality of education facilities and teachers for Tibetans, the difficulties in educational access for Tibetans, as well as a TAR illiteracy rate triple the national average, are indicative of a discriminatory structure. Rather than instilling in Tibetan children respect for their own cultural identity, language and values, education in Tibet serves to convey a sense of inferiority in comparison to the dominant Chinese culture and values.

Right to Housing

The destruction of Tibetan neighbourhoods, the forced evictions of Tibetans and demolition of their homes, as well as preferences shown to Chinese in new housing reveal marked discrimination against Tibetans in the housing sphere.

Right to Health

The general availability of primary health care and the use of preventive medicine have resulted in important improvements in overall health levels in the TAR. Life expectancy of Tibetans has risen significantly, though it is the lowest of all groups in the PRC. The infant mortality rate of Tibetans, however, is three times the PRC national average and a serious problem of child malnutrition exists. The cost and poor quality of primary care and the shortage of trained village-level health professionals contribute to preventing Tibetans from achieving the highest attainable standards of health.

Arbitrary Detention

Tibetans continue to be detained for long periods without charge or sentenced to prison for peacefully advocating Tibetan independence or maintaining links with the Dalai Lama. The number of political prisoners in Tibet appears to have risen in recent years, to over 600. The United Nations Working Group on Arbitrary Detention has criticised China's use of broadly-worded "counterrevolutionary" crimes and called without result for the release of dozens of Tibetans detained in violation of international norms guaranteeing freedom of expression and freedom of religion. Most Tibetan political prisoners were arrested for peacefully demonstrating, writing or distributing leaflets, communicating with foreigners or the Tibetan government-in-exile, or possessing pro-independence material. Nuns account for between one-quarter and one-third of known political prisoners. In 1997 China replaced the "counterrevolutionary" concept with the equally elastic notion of "crimes against state security," adding an article specifically targetting acts "to split the nation."

Torture

Torture and ill-treatment in detention is widespread in Tibet. The use of electric cattle-prods on political detainees appears to be general practice. Torture and other forms of ill-treatment occur in police stations upon arrest, during transport to detention facilities, in detention centres and in prisons. The documented methods of torture against Tibetans include beatings with with chains, sticks with protruding nails, and iron bars, shocks applied with electric cattle-prods to sensitive parts of the body, including the genitals and mouth, hanging by the arms twisted behind the back, and exposure to cold water or cold temperatures. Women, particularly nuns, appear to be subjected to some of the harshest, and gender-specific, torture, including rape using electric cattle-prods and ill-treament of the breasts.

Extrajudicial and Arbitrary Executions

There have been no confirmed reports of shooting of peaceful demonstrators since the demonstrations and disturbances of 1987-89 when scores of Tibetans, including many peaceful demonstrators, were shot and killed. A number of unclarified deaths of political prisoners, including young nuns, have occurred in Tibetan prisons in recent years, allegedly as a result of torture or negligence. The imposition of the death penalty in Tibet - which was reportedly used 34 times in the TAR in 1996 - is devoid of the guarantees of due process and fair trial.

Freedom of Expression

Tibetans' freedom of expression is severely restricted. Expression of political nationalism is not tolerated. Neighbourhood committees identify dissenters and instill "correct thought." Tibetans are arrested and imprisoned, or sentenced to re-education through labour, for the peaceful expression of their political views. Information reaching Tibet from the outside as well as the flow of information out of Tibet is tightly controlled. Restrictions have intensified in recent years through the "Strike Hard" anti-crime campaign, the ban on public display of photographs of the Dalai Lama and the monastic re-education campaign.

Freedom of religion

The Buddhist religion is a significant part of the lives of the Tibetan people. There is, however, pervasive interference with religious freedom and activity in Tibet. Monasteries are under the purview of local government and Party bodies, Party work teams and police branches. Each is governed by a Democratic Management Committee (DMC).

Since the 1994 Forum, when the Party identified the influence of the Dalai Lama and the "Dalai clique" as the root of Tibet's instability, Tibetan Buddhism has been subject to intense scrutiny and control. Party dominance over the DMCs has been strengthened; a ban on religious construction without official permission and limits on the number of monks and nuns per monastery have been more strictly enforced; the screening for admission of monks and nuns has been tightened; and monks and nuns have been asked to denounce the Dalai Lama.

The Chinese government used the search for the reincarnation of the Panchen Lama to intensify its campaign to eradicate the Dalai Lama's religious as well as political influence. The senior monk involved in the selection process was detained and later sentenced, the Panchen Lama's monastery was purged and Tibetan cadres' and religious leaders' loyalty was tested by requiring them to denounce the Dalai Lama's interference in the Panchen Lama's recognition, and to accept the Chinese choice for Panchen Lama. A ban on the public display of photographs of the Dalai Lama was later followed by a sporadic ban on private possession of his photo. In 1996 a "patriotic education campaign" in the monasteries was initiated which continues to the present. Strengthened work teams were sent to major monasteries to conduct intensive re-education sessions among the monks, during which the monks were called on to denounce the Dalai Lama. Hundreds of monks were forced to leave their monasteries, while at least 90 others were arrested for disturbing the re-education process. Chinese troops shelled one monastery, killing one and injuring three.

Freedom of Assembly

Peaceful political demonstrations in Tibet are typically broken up in minutes, and their participants arrested and often beaten, as part of a deliberate policy to suppress any manifestation of pro-independence sentiment. In recent years even some economic protests have been violently suppressed.

Population Control

Although the Tibetan population is small and Tibetan territory sparsely inhabited, China limits the number of children which Tibetan women may have, though these limits are not as severe as they are for Chinese women. The limits, which vary from area to area, are enforced through mandatory fines, abortions and sterilisations, in violation of numerous legal rights and sometimes with adverse health consequences for women. "Unauthorised" children commonly suffer discrimination in access to schooling and other benefits and rights.

Tibet's Legal Status

Central Tibet - that part of Tibet ruled from Lhasa - demonstrated from 1913 to 1950 the conditions of statehood as generally accepted under international law. In 1950 there was a people, a territory, and a government which functioned in that territory, conducting its own domestic affairs free from any outside authority. From 1913-1950 the foreign relations of central Tibet were conducted exclusively by the Government of Tibet. Central Tibet was thus at the very least a de facto independent State when in the face of a Chinese invasion it signed the "17 Point Agreement" in 1951 surrendering its independence to China. Under that Agreement, China gave a number of undertakings, including: promises to maintain the existing political system of Tibet, to maintain the status and functions of the Dalai Lama, to protect freedom of religion and the monasteries and to refrain from compulsory "reforms." These and other undertakings were violated by China. The Government of Tibet was entitled to repudiate the Agreement as it did in 1959.

Self-Determination

Tibetans are a "people under alien subjugation," entitled under international law to the right of self-determination, by which they freely determine their political status. The Tibetan people have not yet exercised this right, which requires a free and genuine expression of their will.

Recommendations

The principal recommendation of this report is for a referendum to be held in Tibet under United Nations supervision to ascertain the wishes of the Tibetan people. Those eligible to vote in such a referendum would be Tibetans and other persons resident in Tibet before 1950 and their descendants, as well as Tibetan refugees and their descendants. The referendum would take place in the contiguous territories in which ethnic Tibetans historically constituted a majority and among the exile community. This exercise of the right to self-determination could result in the establishment of an independent state, a form of genuine internal self-government, continuation of Tibet's current status within China, or any other status freely determined by the Tibetan people.

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Dear Jaguar, it's the US govt so enthusiasticly sent Tibet to China(my country) as early as in around 1944:
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=_tOtVQ7cNWY#

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[deleted]

yebicough, qing ni bie guan jaguar, nage "zangdu fenzi" hundan. guanyu xizang ta shenme dou bu zhidao. ni kan jian le ma? ta ye shuo nanjing datusha shi jia de, bu shi zhen de. zhe shi ribenguizi de kanfa. "ZD fenzi" dou shi shagua.


Obviously thinking you would gain superiority typing in Mandarin, you show your own lack o0f credibility even more. While my command of Mandarin is limited as I've only been studying for 2 years, I am able to understand your paragraph without much undue trouble. Your spelling errors made it harder than it needed to be.

Yebicough, please you don't bother about Jaguar, he's a Tibet Independence "intellectual" fool. In regards to Tibet he doesn't know anything. You see ? He also says the Nanjing massacre is false , wasn't real. This is the Japanese point of view. Tibet pseudo-intellectual idiot.

1. That the Chinese have an insulting name for those who are sympathetic to the plight of Tibetans means nothing. Then again, from your posts it is clear you sincerely believe insults can replace reasoned discussion.

2. I did not claim the Nanjing Massacre was false. I said many Japanese do. Intellectual honesty is not a trait you possess. I also see you failed to address the question. Typical.

3. In an effort to determine the your bias, I skimmed through your posting history. You are a communist. You are American by birth but have taken out Chinese citizenship. Legally this means you have denounced your American citizenship. You have contempt for "right wing scum" as you put it. Your wife is Chinese and your child is 1/2 Chinese. You are not genetically Chinese but admire the Chinese model of communism.

So there we have a brief picture of you. Your goal is to paint the government of China as a fair and beneficial government. Like that government, you also refuse to provide impartial sources for information you use to support your position. Your credibility being completely shot now, I will not attempt to say anything in Chinese as you're not worth the effort.



http://jaguarv2.proboards88.com/

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[deleted]

> Why would you be asking me to prove it if you didn't believe it was false?

Because you are idiotically asking the same regarding the atrocities and oppressions committed in Tibet by the PRC. Your defense falls into the exact same patterns as these of some foolish Japanese rightwingers who claim there are no "sources" to "prove" that the Nanjing Massacre did happen--since the official records only show that the Japanese military only executed "chinese soldiers in disguise." The same excuse the PRC government are making about firing on civilians, saying they only fired upon "separatists" and so on. The only sources that you, or they, quote are limited and distorted sources.

How idiotically blind you can be...

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[deleted]

> Here are the most recent sources I quote

The way you quote is distorted at the first place, since you are a dishonest brat who doesn't even know the most fundamental source of discussion here;

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119485/board/thread/106295774?d=107168252 &p=2#107168252

You criticize a film based upon a scene that ... Doesn't even exist in the film, only in your hallucination. Who can trust someone who is as stupid as that?

Read this again, fool:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119485/board/thread/106295774?d=107173183 &p=2#107173183

..and this,

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119485/board/thread/69538958?p=4

...and try to learn something about your self. Oh and don't forget to watch the film, which you haven't seen.

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[deleted]


is self deluded. He knew exactly what the point of the question was, but ignored it, just as he ignores REAL sources of information regarding the crimes against the Tibetan people. Anyone who subscribes to communism, after all of its COLOSSAL FAILURES, crimes, murders, repression and injustice, is either self deluded or simply an A-hole. He is obviously both. He wears his ignorance like a crown; even his name... "cominternprc" is devastatingly stupid. "Communist International prc (Peoples Republic of China). It's a VERY safe bet that he married a Chinese to have an obedient and submissive wife, since I'm sure no self respecting American woman would want him. I'll lay 10:1 odds he weighs 300 lbs and looks like something from Dilbert.


http://jaguarv2.proboards88.com/

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[deleted]

[deleted]

I'm sorry I reply late: Fenzi means "-ist", while in tone it contains slight comtempt which I personally think the English suffix doesn't contain.

speaking of third party source, how about National Geographic?

http://shop.nationalgeographic.com/product/4335.html

It does not note Tibet a country. Actually you could compare it with the map of P.R.China(or some called the communism China), and found the difference. The only difference lies between them is Mongolia, whose independence was recognised by the ROC government in early 1946.

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This stupid post of yours proves very eloquently that you are on a discussion board about a film that you haven't seen--indeed, violating the terms and conditions and the purpose of this discussion board.

> As for the Dalai Lama's eloquent snubbing of Mao as depicted in this propaganda film,

Pfff... That was not with Mao, that was what he said to a general of the People's Liberation Army, who is depicted in the film as a typical self-obsessed cruel bureaucrat.

> it would be powerful if it wasn't a baldfaced lie.

And it is powerful since it is not at all a "baldfaced lie." Apart from not having the Panchen Lama in the scenes with Mao (totally justified in a dramatization within a fictional film context; that would end up having too many characters which has nothing to do with the central theme of the film), it is indeed very truthful to the actual Dalai Lama meeting Mao: he was impressed, and he is shown as being impressed in the film. He even believes in what Mao says about Buddhism, that his mother was Buddhist, that Buddhism has many things in common with socialism, and so on. However, at their last meeting, Mao tells to the young Dalai Lama "Religion is poison," which disturbs him very much.

> The "only I can liberate myself" line is at odds with historical reality:


Not at all; but you couldn't understand that since you haven't seen the film . In Esoteric Buddhist term, the liberation of the soul is the liberation from one's own obsessions. Therefore, it is natural a Buddhist monk says "You cannot liberate me, I can only liberate myself." That idea of self-liberation appears numerous times in the film, sorry you are too idiotic to understand the profound philosophical level of the discourse... OH BUT THEN, YOU HAVEN'T SEEN IT.

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> When Mao says something along the lines of "we're going to liberate you" and the Dalai Lama replies "you cannot liberate me. I can liberate myself".

That's not Mao but a general of the People's Liberation Army.

> This demonstrates the deep contrast of the two belief systems:

Not at all. It's just a difference in personal attitudes, about how much each person takes his ideology seriously. General Tang is just a cruel self-obsessed bureaucrat, the kind of person we find in all kinds of regimes, not at all a special kind of specimen for "communism." That was not even what Mao stood for originally.

On the other hand, not so many self-calling buddhist would reach as profound an understanding of its philosophy as the Dalai Lama. In fact many sects pretend as if they can liberate their followers.

And...

> On the other hand is the Buddist system, according to which people are responsible for themselves.

That is not exactly what it means, the sentence "I can only liberate myself." He says that to general Tang because his understanding of the word "liberation" or "liberated" is different from these stupid bureaucrat believing in "liberation" and instead enslaving themselves. All authoritarian political regimes are doomed to confined in their propaganda as if they are "liberating" their people, when that propaganda is of course nothing more than a tool for enslavement. While the Dalai Lama in that scene talks about "liberation" in spiritual terms, not at all on an actual political level.

Kundun is not at all the kind of simplistic political propaganda you may think it is. the term liberation must be thought out in this film with the quotes from the Heart Sutra on the exile/kalachakla montage and the numerous scenes with the Dalai Lama and his teachers in mind. Basically, "liberation" in Esoteric buddhist term is the liberation from one's own obsessions.

I would like to advise you not to distort this film for your own political convenience. That would make you not very different from one idiot who is trying to spread Beijing's propaganda on a board about a film that he hasn't even seen . Of course, that idiot is nothing more than another "general tang."

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[deleted]

> Not only does he not know how to spell Mao's name, he also doesn't even know what Mao is supposed to look like!

You are no different since you obviously are forgetting that this discussion board is about a fictional film based on the Dalai Lama. In fact, the Mao in the film doesn't look very much like the real Mao.

The guy can be accused of being mistaken about identifying a character in a film, but not for the reason you claim. The conversation takes place in the Potala in Lhasa, not in Beijing where the Dalai Lama meets Mao. So he is totally mistaken about the context of the scene.

But then you haven't seen this film therefore you couldn't tell the difference--and that lead to a huge question: what is your justification in posting your pseudo-opinions on a board that is supposed to be reserved for discussion about a film that you haven't even seen?

Maybe a good lesson for you...


Kundun is not at all the kind of simplistic political propaganda you may think it is. the term liberation must be thought out in this film with the quotes from the Heart Sutra on the exile/kalachakla montage and the numerous scenes with the Dalai Lama and his teachers in mind. Basically, "liberation" in Esoteric buddhist term is the liberation from one's own obsessions.

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[deleted]

> What reason was that? I don't remember giving one...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119485/board/thread/106295774?d=107167560 &p=1#107167560

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119485/board/thread/106295774?d=106377761 &p=1#106377761

Liar....

> 2) Could you please give some evidence that you have that I haven't seen this film?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119485/board/nest/106295774?d=106377761&a mp;a mp;a mp;a mp;p=1#106377761

If you have seen it, you could have easily tell the guy was mistaken about to whom the Dalai Lama said "You cannot liberate me, general Tang. I can only liberate myself." And more...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119485/board/thread/106295774?d=107168252 &p=1#107168252...

Indeed, the Dalai Lama in the film is initially very impressed with Mao--as the Dalai Lama himself proclaims even today; he has some disagreements, but holds certain respects, and Martin Scorsese follows that attitude.

> Sorry, Conductor. I don't have to spread anything because the truth of Tibet is there for anyone with a passport and Chinese visa to see.

I've been there and the situation was quite terrible. It's a very typical racist colonialist situation. So carelessly oppressive, destroying the culture and the environment. The PRC government must be either too blind or too stupid--destroying the nature in Tibet would cause devastating results on the water supply of the entire China, as well as its environment, while with the way they try to govern the Tibetans, no wonder the majority of them are so dissatisfied and hostile against them. The policies are simply on the level of idiocy, when resolving the matter is indeed not very difficult.

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[deleted]

> You're a lying bastard. About that AND

How can you say that without any proofs? SOURCES, please

> about me never having seen this film

But your posts clearly point out that you totally ignore its actual contents. So the logical conclusion is that you have never seen it. Here's the proof:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119485/board/nest/106295774?d=107168252&a mp;p=1#107168252


Of course there is a slight possibility that you are so stupid you totally have forgotten. So which do you prefer; being a liar or being a total fool?

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[deleted]

> To err is human. It's been years since I've seen the film.

Yours is beyond "to err" or forgetting....


> As for the Dalai Lama's eloquent snubbing of Mao as depicted in this propaganda film,

Pfff... That was not with Mao, that was what he said to a general of the People's Liberation Army, who is depicted in the film as a typical self-obsessed cruel bureaucrat.

> it would be powerful if it wasn't a baldfaced lie.

And it is powerful since it is not at all a "baldfaced lie." Apart from not having the Panchen Lama in the scenes with Mao (totally justified in a dramatization within a fictional film context; that would end up having too many characters which has nothing to do with the central theme of the film), it is indeed very truthful to the actual Dalai Lama meeting Mao: he was impressed, and he is shown as being impressed in the film. He even believes in what Mao says about Buddhism, that his mother was Buddhist, that Buddhism has many things in common with socialism, and so on. However, at their last meeting, Mao tells to the young Dalai Lama "Religion is poison," which disturbs him very much.


Seriously, what have you seen? Why can you be this idiotic, to stay so long on a discussion board about a film THAT YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT??

As a matter of fact, if you had actually seen it, the film itself is not at all putting China in general in "a bad light." It even includes an extended sequence in which the revolution Mao made to China is totally justified, and on the other hand it also includes depictions on the political corruptions within the Tibetan government, which shocks the 9 years old Dalai Lama "Monks have guns?" "Was there a prison in the Potala?".

> Not that I put much stock in it in the first place, anyway.

Then why you keep trolling on this board anyway?

Please: this film is far more profound in its philosophical question on human ethics, the idea of self-realizations, and also in its artistic qualities, we don't need your idiotic propaganda.

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