MovieChat Forums > Kundun (1998) Discussion > WAS NOT AND IS NOT A DICTATOR!

WAS NOT AND IS NOT A DICTATOR!


HOW DARE YOU! HE'S WORKING HIS LIFE OFF FOR TIBETAN FREEDOM!
I DONT THINK A DICTATOR WINS A NOBEL PEACE PRIZE? ARE YOU AN IDIOT!

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Was he appointed in an election?












sucker

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No, but in his declaration to his people from India, he stated that IF they find he is not working on their behalf and they do not wish him to be Dahli Lama any longer, they can fire him. What leader would make that kind of pact with his people and stick with it? Certainly not GW Bush. Talk about an un-elected dictator.

"Sometimes my ruminations are too confusing for someone not inside my head." -Anon

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> No, but in his declaration to his people from India, he stated that IF they find he is not working on their behalf and they do not wish him to be Dahli Lama any longer, they can fire him.

And he also has suggested that either the next Dalai Lama should be elected, or become simply a spiritual leader and not having any political power. Actually he doesn't have any political authority over the government in exile, which is now controlled by elected leaders.

> What leader would make that kind of pact with his people and stick with it?

It's more than just the people, but the whole way of life and a culture, which is almost extinct. Kundun certainly focuses on that side, even if the political history are central to the plot. That is how this film is incredibly unique for an American film.

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The Dalai Lama does not lay down bylaws for the Tibetan people :P. Between the 17th century and 1959, the Dalai Lama was the head of the Tibetan government being the head of their government he was quite different from other heads of state. A complete Buddhist state would be very easy to handle, in fact he is simply a political representation and spiritual leader.

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If you want to know more about the Dalai Lama read his autobiography "Freedom in Exile,fascinating and well written. Also check out tibet.com, the site of the Tibetan Govt in exile. Has a lot of info on history and customs.

As to His Holiness and democracy here something from his bio at his website, From http://dalailama.com/page.105.htm:

Democratisation Process

In 1963 His Holiness presented a draft democratic constitution for Tibet that was followed by a number of reforms to democratise our administrative set-up. The new democratic constitution promulgated as a result of this reform was named "The Charter of Tibetans in Exile". The charter enshrines freedom of speech, belief, assembly and movement. It also provides detailed guidelines on the functioning of the Tibetan government with respect to those living in exile.

In 1992 His Holiness issued guidelines for the constitution of a future, free Tibet. He announced that when Tibet becomes free the immediate task would be to set up an interim government whose first responsibility will be to elect a constitutional assembly to frame and adopt Tibet's democratic constitution. On that day His Holiness would transfer all his historical and political authority to the Interim President and live as an ordinary citizen. His Holiness also stated that he hoped that Tibet, comprising of the three traditional provinces of U-Tsang, Amdo and Kham, would be federal and democratic.

In May 1990, the reforms called for by His Holiness saw the realisation of a truly democratic administration in exile for the Tibetan community. The Tibetan Cabinet (Kashag), which till then had been appointed by His Holiness, was dissolved along with the Tenth Assembly of Tibetan People's Deputies (Tibetan parliament in exile). In the same year, exile Tibetans on the Indian sub-continent and in more than 33 other countries elected 46 members to the expanded Eleventh Tibetan Assembly on a one-man one-vote basis. The Assembly, in its turn, elected the new members of the cabinet. In September 2001, a further major step in democratisation was taken when the Tibetan electorate directly elected the Kalon Tripa, the senior-most minister of the Cabinet. The Kalon Tripa in turn appointed his own cabinet who had to be approved by the Tibetan Assembly. In Tibet's long history, this was the first time that the people elected the political leadership of Tibet.

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The fact that the previous poster used the term 'His Holiness' is reason for suspect and scrutiny, and to assume bias.

And to the person who compared the DL to G.W. Bush in regards to the proposal the DL made to his people about him being sacked if they find that he is not working for the freedom of Tibet. The question is not whether George W. Bush would do that. The question is would the DL do that he was the president of the U.S.A. Why would the people of Tibet depose the DL? He is a one-man PR machine and easily one of the most recognizable people on the planet. That would be bigger blow then McDonalds getting rid of the Golden Arches.

I'm not saying the DL's a bad dude or anything, or that either of the posts/ers I referred to are incorrect. I'm just saying that I wouldn't make assumptions about him, positive or negative, and the last place I'd look for unbiased truth would be on his web-site or from his autobiography.

"Inside the dusters there were 3 men"..."So?"....."Inside the men there were 3 bullets" - d{^_^}b

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> The fact that the previous poster used the term 'His Holiness' is reason for suspect and scrutiny, and to assume bias.

Pfff.... He was just quoting from the official web-site of the office of the Dalai Lama. Of course they would use the term "his holiness."

> Why would the people of Tibet depose the DL? He is a one-man PR machine and easily one of the most recognizable people on the planet.

Meaning that he's doing his job for the freedom of Tibet--and actually much more, since he is also a spiritual guidance to so many non-tibetans around the world, in fact one of the most respected priest within the buddhist around the world, even from people who are not of Esoteric Tibetan Buddhist faith. That of course comes from a reason; you'll see the man, you'll read his writings, you'll listen to his speeches and you'll get it if you are not unbiased; the 14th Dalai Lama happens to be among the wisest people in the world today for sure.

> positive or negative, and the last place I'd look for unbiased truth would be on his web-site or from his autobiography.

What kind of "unbiased truth"? For instance this film Kundun, about which the Dalai Lama offered a lot of advices to the filmmakers, includes the political corruption of Tibet, the political conflicts that happened in the Tibetan court including the death of one of his ministers, probably an assassination, and even the young Dalai Lama surprised to know that there were a prison in his palace. The later half of the film, after that he becomes adult and actually takes the leadership of his nation, focuses not only on the Chinese invasion, but about his struggles to reform his own country, which was too obsolete and even corrupt to certain extent.

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"His Holiness" is a fairly standard honorific for the Dalai Lama, I don't think it necessarily reflects any bias.

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> Arafat won a Nobel Peace Prize, too.

Yasser Arafat was a horrible corrupted opportunist but certainly was not a dictator. He couldn't be, as the Palestinian people are too wiser for that. I personally think he didn't deserve that prize, but since Rabin certainly deserved it, and it would look unfair to give it only to him...

> So did the head of the Vietnamese Communist Party.

You mean Ho? He certainly was one of the best and most moral political leaders of the 20th century and was no way a "dictator." And he successfully defended his own country and his people from foreign oppressors, as well as from the corrupted dictators that even the United States' politicians found awful. Kennedy and MacNamara was seriously considering of withdrawing from Vietnam because supporting those bastards was for nothing good, but they failed. Sadly, only the ignorant Americans ignore that...

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[deleted]

[deleted]

If the Dalai Lama was a dictator, then every monarch on earth is a dictator. (Which would make Queen Elizabeth a dictatress.) Including the Pope.

Maybe you should look up the difference between a monarchy and a dictatorship.

And grow up.


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The problem is that you people all believe what you see in films. Tibet is NO Shangri-la. It's not, what you all believe to be, paradise. The Dalai Lama is no saint, he is no god.
The Dalai Lama is just a human being. with all the good and bad sides any human being could have.
Seen that he is in politics with no real power, he carves for it. Like any human being would do.
And makes himself popular.
It's stupid to deny Tibet's real history and social life before the chinese takeover, which didn't change very much afterwards.
Eventually it's all power struggle, political power struggle.
"where elephants fight, it's the grass that suffer"
in this case the tibetan people.

A very interesting thing is that the first Dalai Lama was installed by the Chinese army.

another thing: you people should stop to shout "free Tibet" all the time, it only makes things worse for the tibetans. Might sound cool wherever you live, but it's not in China/Tibet.



"What if there is no tomorrow? there wasn't one today...!";

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Funny thing is, in light of recent events, the DL seems more a parallel to Arafat then ever. Arafat was accused of being a leader who had no control over his subordinates, and the same is proving true with the DL and the Olympic Protests. It's obvious by this point he's just an iconic figure-head/Caricature and nothing more and what's laughable is that he's is continually looked towards to shed some light on this Olympic controversy, and when it was happening in the middle-east, everyone just called for Arafat's head. If this was happening in the U.S., those demonstrators and monks would all be considered terrorists and safely be in "Gitmo" by now.

jaustin035, on Sun Dec 16 2007 18:50:29, wrote something that made me laugh.

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> Arafat was accused of being a leader who had no control over his subordinates, and the same is proving true with the DL and the Olympic Protests.

Errr... The Dalai Lama doesn't have any "subordinates" except for the Buddhist monks, and the protesters are in no way his "subordinates." Even as the religious leader of Tibetan Buddhism, he acts more as a teacher and not as a ruler.

> If this was happening in the U.S., those demonstrators and monks would all be considered terrorists and safely be in "Gitmo" by now.

Because the majority of Americans are stupid like yourself, but the U.S. government still certainly won't dare to arrest a bunch of international journalists as "terrorists." The constitution forbid that. And there's no ground for an arrest or anything against a non-violent protests.

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A - Obviously you don't watch the news, because the protests & protesters are anything but non-violent. Wake up.
B - I'm not American, but it was nice to see how easy you were drawn out by that bait.
C - "Err ... The Dalai Lama doesn't have any subordinatesexcept for the Buddhist monks, and the protesters are in no way his "subordinates."." You can't be that stupid and/or naive and still pose as someone who is trying make any valid arguments or "helping" the cause of a "Free Tibet". The protesters are just like you - clowns who don't really have a clue about the political inner workings of the situation and are just prodded along like sheep by the people who run these "free tibet" movement things. The Dalai Lama HAS subordinates - He is not just a religious/spiritual leader. And Yes, those protesters are by extension his subordinates. As long as he doesn't disassociate himself or denounce their behavior of late, he is condoning their violence. You can't just say " I support non-violent protest, and then not condemn violent protests by your supporters. That works sometimes for TV stations, but not for world leaders.

Like I said, he's a clown/puppet/Icon-type, powerless leader at this point, politically speaking, when it comes to those operating underneath and from his umbrella of influence. As far as his spirituality goes, I think he's genius and a good guy, and he has alot of good insights. But Socio-politically, I'm going with China on this one. If he condones all these people screwing up the Olympics for China, and doesn't, spread the message to believers and protesters to stop, then he's a sad politic-centered two-bit opportunist. At this point in time, WE'VE ALREADY SEEN IT ALL when it comes to Tibet, and honestly, it's not on anyones to do list. Anything more protest-wise is just atagonistic overkill. If it was such an injustice to all the non-Tibetans that claim to be torn by this situation support the whole "Free Tibet" movement, there are similar situations closer to home and in other parts of the world (lots much worse)that they don't seem to making any fuss about. SO why Tibet if it's not just some shi-shi thing? Why can't everybody just "Man-Up", stop being total hypocrites and S**t disturbers, and have the courtesy to let China have their Olympics?

Fact is, These protesters ARE a national threat to security for China. Who knows what the crazy fools will do or try to instigate. I'd lock away and/or deport every single one of them. And as far as "foreign journalists" go, everyone who owns a camera and has a blog and doesn't live where you live is a "foreign journalist" these days. And if you're a real journalist and don't like they way things are done in other countries, get reassigned till your happy.

jaustin035, on Sun Dec 16 2007 18:50:29, wrote something that made me laugh.

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> A - Obviously you don't watch the news, because the protests & protesters are anything but non-violent. Wake up.

They were before the military started shooting at the monk. At least, this is what the Tibetan side is proclaiming, and if the PRC want to negate that claim, it's easy: just let international journalist interview FREELY in Tibet--which the PRC don't allow. Why they cannot take that decision? So far it's fair to conclude that there is a huge possibility that they are lying.

> B - I'm not American, but it was nice to see how easy you were drawn out by that bait.

Which bate? I never took you as an American.

> The Dalai Lama HAS subordinates

Where, outsides of the lies of the RPC and outsides of your hallucinations? Now even the Tibetans in Tibet respectfully disagree to the Dalai Lama's call for non-violence. They even say that to the media.

> He is not just a religious/spiritual leader.

His official status is that he has no political authority. The government in exile is run by elected officials. You can cook up any conspiracy theory if you wish, but that would only make you an ignorant fool.

> And Yes, those protesters are by extension his subordinates.

The Dalai Lama invited the Chinese officials to come to Dhalamsala and investigate if they want to prove his connections to the riot. The Chinese tries to ignore that offer. Why? Because they know they would find nothing.

> As long as he doesn't disassociate himself or denounce their behavior of late, he is condoning their violence.

What a stupid claim to make, undoubtedly from someone who think dictatorships is the only way to govern...

> But Socio-politically, I'm going with China on this one. If he condones all these people screwing up the Olympics for China,

The Chinese government is screwing up their own olympics. They should have known better, but they are so incompetent... To let a riot happening in Lhasa already exposes how incompetent they are, but trying to hide that news with their old classical obsolete 1960's manner? How stupid they can be...

> Fact is, These protesters ARE a national threat to security for China.

How?

> Who knows what the crazy fools will do or try to instigate.

Okay, a very clear RACIST comment, spreading racial hatred against Tibetans.

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What a silly conspiracy theory. The Dalai Lama has repeatedly stated that he supports non-violent dissent against Chinese colonisation (let's face it that's what it is) in Tibet. The old system which His Holiness (btw I would call any religious leader that when it is the official style of address, just as I would address a monarch as Your Majesty or whatever, so no I'm not biased) wanted to REFORM was at least run by Tibetans, not foreigners. Basically the view taken by the PRC officials is that the Tibetans can't run themselves, VERY similiar to the arguments raised by imperial powers in the past (for example most businesses in Tibet are now controlled by Han Chinese who have imigrated there).

When have protesters *ever* been a threat to the security of a nation? They can only be a threat to regimes, such as the overthrowal of the Eastern Bloc governments. How can the Lhasa protesters possibly hope to combat against the largest military in the world and the most populous nation in the world with no guns etc to speak of?

Next you'll be saying that the protestors in Burma had to be repressed to save democracy in Burma as the military junta there said, when clearly the opposite is true...

And yeah, the Communist Party is being pretty clumsy in it's handling of this. Perhaps they should hire Rupert Murdoch, who is one of the better propagandaists alive today, to help them. At the very least they'll need to be more subtle and stop thinking that journalists and people don't see through their heavy-handed media control.

The Dalai Lama is perhaps the greatest spiritual leader alive today. And he proves how much faiths have in common. For example, as a Catholic I would love it if he were somehow made Pope.

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> The problem is that you are too blind to understand a film--in Kundun,

maybe you are too blind to understand what I wanted to say. Nonetheless people watched Kundun, they still believe that Tibet is a kind of Shangri-La.

>But he obviously is a much better human being than the ignorant arrogant blind person that you are...

Or maybe YOU are more ignorant and arrogant than I am...
1. Throughout the 1960s, the Tibetan exile community was secretly pocketing $1.7 million a year from the CIA, according to documents released by the State Department in 1998. Once this fact was publicized, the Dalai Lama’s organization itself issued a statement admitting that it had received millions of dollars from the CIA during the 1960s to send armed squads of exiles into Tibet to undermine the Maoist revolution. The Dalai Lama's annual payment from the CIA was $186,000. Indian intelligence also financed both him and other Tibetan exiles. He has refused to say whether he or his brothers worked for the CIA. The agency has also declined to comment.
2. In April 1999, along with Margaret Thatcher, Pope John Paul II, and the first George Bush, the Dalai Lama called upon the British government to release Augusto Pinochet, the former fascist dictator of Chile and a longtime CIA client who was visiting England. The Dalai Lama urged that Pinochet not be forced to go to Spain where he was wanted to stand trial for crimes against humanity.
3.In November 2005 the Dalai Lama spoke at Stanford University on “The Heart of Nonviolence,” but stopped short of a blanket condemnation of all violence. Violent actions that are committed in order to reduce future suffering are not to be condemned, he said, citing World War II as an example of a worthy effort to protect democracy. What of the four years of carnage and mass destruction in Iraq, a war condemned by most of the world—even by a conservative pope--as a blatant violation of international law and a crime against humanity? The Dalai Lama was undecided: “The Iraq war—it’s too early to say, right or wrong.” Earlier he had voiced support for the U.S. military intervention against Yugoslavia and, later on, the U.S. military intervention into Afghanistan.
...you want me to go on?

>Many human beings are a lot wiser than you are.

and probably I am a lot wiser than you are.

>Errr.... No. Mongolians are no "Chinese."

Well, among all the chinese minorities there are also mongolians. So they might be considered "chinese". But I guess you were referring to the fact that they are not "han-chinese".
Anyhow, I must give you this point, because at that time Mongolia was not yet part of China...
In the thirteenth century, Emperor Kublai Khan created the first Grand Lama, who was to preside over all the other lamas as might a pope over his bishops. Several centuries later, the Emperor of China sent an army into Tibet to support the Grand Lama, an ambitious 25-year-old man, who then gave himself the title of Dalai (Ocean) Lama, ruler of all Tibet.



"What if there is no tomorrow? there wasn't one today...!";

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[deleted]

haha, yeah, he/she's kinda quiet after all those monologues!

but I kind of agree with the other poster who said

>The protesters are just like you - clowns who don't really have a clue about the political inner workings of the situation and are just prodded along like sheep by the people who run these "free tibet" movement things.

Just for the record: I don't side with the Chinese government either, who made a lot of mistakes (in Tibet as in the rest of China)


"What if there is no tomorrow? there wasn't one today...!";

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[deleted]

yeah, you're right,

but you know, since 9/11 people automatically took the stance "if you're not with us, you're against us",
so I wanted to specify, just in case.

;)



"What if there is no tomorrow? there wasn't one today...!";

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[deleted]

> Nonetheless people watched Kundun, they still believe that Tibet is a kind of Shangri-La.

A very Stalinist anti-democratic statement indeed , taking people as fools so arrogantly...

In reality, people are not as blindly stupid as you are. Stop your childish self-projections.

> 1. Throughout the 1960s, the Tibetan exile community was secretly pocketing $1.7 million a year from the CIA, a

Pocketing??? They were just receiving financial aids. The Dalai Lama as well as the Government in Exile admit that, that with the entire world ignoring their cause, they needed the money to preserve their cultural heritage, taking care of the refugees, maintaining the government, so???

> Violent actions that are committed in order to reduce future suffering are not to be condemned, he said, citing World War II as an example of a worthy effort to protect democracy.

It was. It was a demonish choice for sure, but how could Hitler and the Japanese militarists could be stopped from invading and massacring other people? That is the reality. Of course, in retrospect there were other ways if people were aware of their danger from the beginning when they became dangerous, but like in the US, even in 1941 there were still many supporters of the Nazis and the Fascists. Roosevelt's choice of making Japan start a war against the US was probably a morally dubious one, but in the reality of politics that choice was needed to be made.

Or can you present a blanket non-violence statement to the people of Vietnam? I don't think so.

The real world is far more complex than what you want to believe in your brainwashed brain. You just cannot accuse the Vietnamese, or the resistance members during WW II on the basis of "non-violence," indeed that would be a very stupid thing to do for an outsider. Under these circumstances, these people need to find for themselves if the use of violence was indeed totally justifiable or not, since they wouldn't listen at the first place.

What you twisted minds claim here was indeed just the Dalai Lama avoiding to give simplified black and white politically-oriented judgements, as his religious status commands.

> Well, among all the chinese minorities there are also mongolians.

It doesn't make the Mongolian Empire "chinese," in deed, "Yuan," the chinese portion of the Mongolian empire was only a subordinate to the greater Mongolian Empire, and Tibet back then belonged to a different segment of the Mongolian Empire than Yuan. You are not making any historical sense here. Besides, the Khans who were themselves followers of the Gelug School of Tibetan Buddhism were religiously the Dalai Lama's deciples so were the emperors of the Quing dynasty. Your brainwashed chinese propagandas don't make any sense except for being the mouthpiece of the problematic PRC rulers.

Besides, a nation being under the rulings of some other larger nation would never negate that minority nation's rights as a people. You should study international law a bit.

But I have a question for you. This board is about the film Kundun. Why you are obsessively coming back here when you haven't even seen the film and have no intention of even discussing the film itself, not even understanding the concept of non-violence and spiritual values presented in the film?

In case you didn't know, this film is a personal passion piece of an American filmmaker who comes from an Italian American background,growing up in a neighborhood controlled by gangsters, had once participated to the New York Newsreel movement, was against the Vietnamese war, who calls himself "I am still a Roman Catholic," attacked by many religious fanatics for his film The Last Temptation of Christ, and in this film also did not forget to include certain justifications for the Chinese invaders. In one word, it is in no way a simple-minded propaganda piece your moronic brainwashed mentality can perceive.

Also, read here http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119485/board/thread/114730350?d=114748564 &p=1#114748564

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guys, you're the Taliban of buddhism!

don't you see it's all politics? dalai lama included?




"What if there is no tomorrow? there wasn't one today...!";

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> guys, you're the Taliban of buddhism!

Your logic is completely incomprehensible, unless that you are the Taliban of the Chinese Communist Party...

> don't you see it's all politics? dalai lama included?

And what the Dalai Lama demands politically is to give back to Tibet it's autonomy, to make Tibet a genuine autonomous region within the PRC (while diplomacy and defense always under the authority of the PRC), and the condition is that its political leaders must be elected legally by the people, the autonomy government must be secular and democratic, with the freedom of faith and the separation of the government and religion guaranteed (while PRC for the time being is using Buddhist authorities as tools for politics--though failing miserably).

I wonder why asking just that must be called "the Taliban of buddhism," nor the reason why PRC cannot even accept such basic and totally justified political demands.

Well, of course, if they give the populous of Tibet the right to vote, the also have to give the same rights to other Chinese citizens, and that may throw them out of their powers, of course... But it's already almost a century since Dr, Sun Yat Tsen's republican revolution of China, which claimed democracy. It's about time to make the whole China more democratic after all. And if the Communist party has been good to its people, I wouldn't worry about them not being elected.

Help to close Guantanamo http://www.tearitdown.org/

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you got a good point!

happy new year.


"What if there is no tomorrow? there wasn't one today...!"

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Dalai Lama's Regious persecution and Human right's abuses!

My interest is of the Dorje Shugdan issue - the Buddhist diety practised by the Gelug and Sakya schools of Tibetan Buddhsim for over 300 years. Millions of Buddhist across the world carry out the practice of an ancient well loved prayer to the Buddhist Deity Dorje Shugden.

The Dalai Lama has illegally banned this prayer even though he himself practiced it for most of his life and was taught to him by his Spiritual Guide before him. Since banning the prayer in 1996, the Dalai Lama has set about instigating and endorsing a series of non-democratic and vehement campaigns toward Shugden practitioners causing tremendous pain and great schisms within the Buddhist community worldwide.

His campaign has intensified since January this year when over a 1000 monks were unconstitutionally expelled from their monasteries, Tibetans-in-exile were forcibly intimidated to engage in public signature and swearing campaigns, and since which Shugden devotees have experienced having identity cards and visa applications withheld, they have been denied basic needs and necessities such as food, water and medical assistance, and there have been instances of thuggish attacks against persons and arson against their property simply because they wish to maintain their spiritual beliefs.

DALAI LAMA CONTINUES TO CAMPAIGN FOR SUPPORT TO SEEK RELIGIOUS FREEDOM FROM THE CHINESE. YET, MILLIONS OF SHUGDEN PRACTITONERS WORLDWIDE ARE ALSO SEEKING RELIGIOUS FREEDOM - FROM THE DALAI LAMA!

The Indian media has covered this since 1996. Diety discrimimation (which exactly is what Dalai Lama's actions are ) breaks India's constitutional law and persecution and discrimination on religious ground breaks Article 14 of Human Rights Act.

After tremendous suffering resulting from the systematic discrimination and persecution at the hands of Dalai Lama and the TGIE, the Shugden practitioners have started court proceedings against the Dalai Lama and Kalon Tripa Samdhong (Tibetan prime minister) on the grounds of religious persecution. The court proceeding started on the 12th of September. For more information please see; http://www.wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com/2008/09/pressure-mounts-on-dalai-lama-to-solve.html

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> I liked Arafat. The Palestinians needed a secular leader like him who wasn't going to turn Palestine into some hotbed of religious idiocy like Hamas is doing.

That certainly must be coming from an ignorant jerk who doesn't know at all the reality. Arafat was a corrupted selfish leader who stole the money belonging to the people (offered as aid internationally) and sending that to his wife living in Paris. The Palestinians became fed up with the corruption and incompetence of the Fatah. While Gaza is a bit different, the west-bank people voted for Hamas because they are not corrupted, and because the political wing of Hamas have been doing significant efforts to save the poor.

Right after the election that Ismail Haniyeh won, a public poll indicated that 80% of the Palestinians are against a religious state. Haniyeh , of course being aware of that, claimed he would not make Palestine a religious state, was making realistic and reasonable but nevertheless strong policies dealing with Israel, saying plainly that the 1967 lines are the starting point. It's the American propaganda who destroyed Haniyeh's reasonable realistic propositions, and eventually made him lose his position (actually, he got fed up and left). The incompetence of Olmert also certainly contributed to that.

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[deleted]

How dare you compare a man who was forced out of his own country by the Chinese communists who INVADED, killed thousands of tibetians, desecrated holy sites that had been in existance for hundreds of years to people like Arafat and the head of the Vietnamese Communist Party? This was a man who lived so much by his word and belief in non-violence that he FLED HIS OWN COUNTRY! He did not use guns, he did not use violence, he did not kill Chinese people and rather than forsake his own deeply held beliefs about peaceful resistance that he would rather be killed than use force. What person do you know who in the absolute face of imminent danger would choose to run rather than stay and fight? What leader of a country do YOU know that would leave his own country of which he was a rightful leader without using whatever military means that were at their disposal? None that I know of. So please take your comments and shove it.

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[deleted]

Moron, your bus is leaving.

read some HISTORY books, you idiot.
and stop watching Hollywood's view of history. You sound more like a Taliban then a normal human being!
USE you OWN sense and logic.



"What if there is no tomorrow? there wasn't one today...!";

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> read some HISTORY books, you idiot.

You should your self; Tibet before the Chinese invasion had an feudal system, there are no "dictators" in historical sense in the feudal system, and the Dalai Lama was certainly not a "dictator," just a religious monarch.

And when the present Dalai Lama, the 14th, took over the throne of the secular affairs, he started reforms for modernization. All of that are in the film that you haven't seen.

The officials of the present government in Exile are elected, and it seeks a total democracy when the autonomy will be realized. The Dalai Lama states that he will continue to fulfill his religious responsibility as a Dalai Lama, but would resign totally from politics, would be legally a simple citizen with no political authority.

Additionally, he proclaims that it should be let to the people of Tibet to decide whether the Dalai Lama system should be continued or not, but as for himself he finds the system rather obsolete and he would like to be the last one.

> and stop watching Hollywood's view of history.

You should see this film first, as it very plainly exposes the many problems Tibet had when the Dalai Lama was a child, and then a teenager. It also is very ambiguous about whether the Dalai Lama is a reincarnation of the Buddha. Indeed, the film is structured in a way that he at the end at last becomes what he is supposed to be, accepting his duties of being appointed as the 14th Dalai Lama.

Of course, the criticism that "it's just another Last Temptation can be valid, I suppose, though no Tibetan buddhists in their right mind would make such claim, since they normally know what "the Dalai Lama" means. That concept is by the way rather plainly stated in this film, used as a sign that he finally really became the Dalai Lama at that moment;


" I believe I am a reflection, like the moon on water. When you see me, and I try to be a good man, you see yourself."


So whether a religious monarch confined within such moral and religious dogma can theoretically become an equivalent of "a dictator" (either in the Roman term or in the modern political term) is pretty dubious. Though in reality I wouldn't deny that some Dalai Lama in history could have forgotten their function in the realities of politics.

So in the film Kundun that you obviously haven't seen, the Chinese invasion and the ultimate exile of the Dalai Lama is certainly not seen in that moronic black and white vision that you have. It is far more complex, just as Satan's temptations in The Last Temptation indeed were vital crucial parts in "God's mysterious plans" to make a christ out of Jesus.

It certainly mourns the cultures that were lost for ever because of the Chinese invasion, by recreating them quite stunningly and faithfully. But on the other hand, in the film (with the Dalai Lama's full acceptance and even encouragements) the "progress" that were brought in mainly by the Chinese invasion, the waves of the contemporary politics that overwhelmed Tibet, are seen as something inevitable. This film doesn't simply negate the Chinese point of view, instead it offers a much more complex meditations about the meanings of "progress" and "modernization."

> You sound more like a Taliban then a normal human being!

You certainly sound like a Stalinist, or even worse; a Nazis.

But I have a question for you. This board is about the film Kundun. Why you are obsessively coming back here when you haven't even seen the film and have no intention of even discussing the film itself, not even understanding the concept of non-violence and spiritual values presented in the film?

In case you didn't know, this film is a personal passion piece of an American filmmaker who comes from an Italian American background,growing up in a neighborhood controlled by gangsters, had once participated to the New York Newsreel movement, was against the US participation to the Vietnam War, who had once proclaimed being an atheist but now calls himself "I am still a Roman Catholic" (and you can tease him by saying "Marty... Catholics don't marry five times..."), attacked by many religious fanatics for his film The Last Temptation of Christ, and in this film also did not forget to include certain justifications for the Chinese invaders. In one word, it is in no way a simple-minded propaganda piece your moronic brainwashed mentality can perceive.

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> How dare you compare a man who was forced out of his own country by the Chinese communists who INVADED, killed thousands of tibetians, desecrated holy sites that had been in existance for hundreds of years to people like Arafat and the head of the Vietnamese Communist Party?

I would totally disagree to put the Dalai Lama into the same category as the awfully corrupted selfish Arafat who was very much hated by the majority of the Palestinians, but as for comparing him to Ho Chi Minh, that is a fair comparison--they are even very much alike. They both behaved, or is behaving as genuine leaders, unselfish, devoted to their own people. Ho too was more or less like a priest, as modest and compassionate as the present Dalai Lama is.

Quoting Tenzin Gyatzo himself, he confirms that "After all, all ideologies are originally conceived for the betterment and happiness of human lives." Communism is no different, and Ho certainly devoted his life for the happiness of his people, with an ideology which after all is the most theoretically well-developed in human history among secular thoughts.

By the way, its fundamental ideas also very close to some religion--notably Christianity. After all, both Marx and Jesus of Nazareth were tormented Jews. The irony in history is that both Christianity and Marxism in their applications to reality brought more misery than happiness to human lives, when those who pretended to exercise these betrayed the original idea. I have to say that Christianity is worse since while one of its fundamental ideas is that we cannot kill, many people have been killed in the name of Christianity, arguably more than being caused by any other names of ideologies or thoughts or beliefs. Like how many people were killed in Latin America "to spread Christianity" there? A few nations disappeared entirely. Christianity was also the main cause of Anti Semitism in Europe for centuries, and of course the end result was the Shoah, killing 6 millions Jews and 5 millions other "minorities," many of them also considered as "undesirable" by the Christian conservatism; political leftists, mentally handicapped, not to forget sexual minorities like homosexuals.

Getting back to the present support of the Tibetan cause, many supporters of the Dalai Lama in the US were back in the 60's-70's supporters of Ho, fihgting against the American invasion of Vietnam. They may be seeing similar qualities in both men--and that generation includes of course Martin Scorsese.

> he did not kill Chinese people and rather than forsake his own deeply held beliefs about peaceful resistance that he would rather be killed than use force.

If he were in the position of Ho, fighting a war that he knew it could be won, he may have taken a different method. In the film it is mentioned that Tibet had 5000 soldiers, and the young Dalai Lama naively thinks it was good enough a protection. Of course that was what a child thought, far from the reality. Tibet had no way to continue a struggle against China. Non-violence and Tenzin Gyatzo's exile was the only way to protect Tibet, even at the cost of losing the land, he (and they) could protect the spirit.

> What leader of a country do YOU know that would leave his own country of which he was a rightful leader without using whatever military means that were at their disposal?

But he hadn't any, at the first place.

In a way, what turned to be so unfortunate for Tibet in the actual politics turned out to be very fortunate in term of spirituality, and about their national identity. The only way they could fight was to use what Scorsese calls the last revolutionary ideology left to us; Non-Violence, which also meant getting back to the basics of their cultural identity.

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Well, they also gave Peace Prizes to Henry Kissinger and Theodore Roosevelt, so I'm not really sure what their standards are, or if they even have them.

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