MovieChat Forums > Kundun (1998) Discussion > 79 people said Kundun was Awful? Yes, th...

79 people said Kundun was Awful? Yes, they did.


79 people voted that this movie was "awful." Amazing.

It is interesting to note that more people gave it a 1 than gave it a 2. This is almost always true, virtually always true, when a wonderful film has 1's. I believe it's because there are so many very young voters, or older but immature voters, who only vote 10 or 1. Knowing next to nothing about films, writing, acting, directing or Theatre in general, they vote 10 for films they "like" and 1 for films they "don't like."

So what are we left, for finding other people's more informed opinions? Try Ebert; he's almost always right on the money. I have some opinions also, at opinionsoup.com.

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This movie does not deserve 1 in any imaginable context or situation. I finished watching minutes ago and when I eventually bother to vote it here at imdb.com, I'll give it an 8.

The cinematography and wonderful score alone deserve points!

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so many people here on earth and most of them are not very clever... sad but true. a person who votes this film a "1" must be a brainless monster... *shiver*

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[deleted]

My problem with the movie is I had a very difficult time following it due to the fact that I missed about every 3rd word, I have a slight hearing loss and don't have closed captions on my tv and we could only find it on vhs. I think apart from this I would have liked it. but it is quite slow and the general public just doesn't like those movies.

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Why would anti-Chinese propaganda (actually anti-Mao-regime propaganda) put people off? I find the cause of showing the horrors the Chinese committed upon the Tibetan people under Mao noble and necessary, probably more important than Holocaust movies. This bit of history is done and wrapped, you can't do anything about it anymore.

Now China today still oppresses Tibet. More movies should show that to audiences. There are people still actively trying to change this situation.


Tu sei la prima donna del primo giorno della creazione.

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@ Eumenides:

> Why would anti-Chinese propaganda (actually anti-Mao-regime propaganda) put people off? I find the cause of showing the horrors the Chinese committed upon the Tibetan people under Mao noble and necessary,

... especially as Scorsese tried not to be biased in a simple-minded way as there was a short piece of dialog, although just one or two sentences (sorry I don't remember it exactly, it is some time ago I saw the film) about the desperate situation of the poor masses in China dying of starvation prior to the Mao revolution, so at least there was some acknowledgment of the change Mao brought about before his regime became distorted.

Regards, Rosabel

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maybe the lack of "f*&k your mother" "s&*t heels" and "what sounds she make when she c*^es" is what turns scorsese fans off from kundun, but i doubt it. people don't watch raging bull to hear cussing, they watch it because it's beautiful and moving--extremely passionate. kundun on the other hand could have been directed by several other competant hollywood directors--as opposed to the measured use of quick editing versus slow editing, and the measured use of camera movement in the great scorsese movies, kundun just edits until it's meaningless and does the same with camera movement. the very look of the film is just plain old (or rather contemporary) hollywood epic. really, admit it, kundun is just a sell out. not only that but the dialogue is hopelessly stilted and the plot is boring as any chick flick. if i gave it a 1 that would be better than the 5 that i am giving it cos that would at least mean that it moved me to be pissed. mediocrity is worse than no talent at all.

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Kundun is a chick flick?? Are all biographies chick flicks?

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My first impression of Kundun was that it was just too damn simular to Bernardo Bertolucci's The Last Emperor. Kundun is a good film though. I'd say it's Scorcese's most thought out and visually stunning film.

People should get over Scorcese. He's way overrated. He hasn't made a film worth watching in ages.

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Regarding your first and last statements - I couldn't disagree more.

To each his own.

Here's looking at you, kid.

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Despite the time it takes place in, how are the two films similar. Take note, they are both based on true stories.

Get Midnighy Cowboy on the top 250 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064665/ratings

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No-one will persuade me that it's anything other than a tedious, sentimental and patronising film, with the usual Hollywood fawning over the 'exotic'. Despite it's stylised approach, at least Gangs of New York didn't abandon something resembling the pursuit of truth.

The lion and the calf shall lie down together, but the calf won't get much sleep.

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Are u working for the chinese government. If so, I could atleast understand your reason behind all your anti-Tibetan/Dalai Lama propagandas. Tell me what is tedious, and patronising about the film.

More than 1/5th of Tibetan population has already been wiped out, far outnumbering Hitler's persecution of jews. yet you still believe that chinese govt has done nothing wrong. I do apologize to you if you are being forced to write what you have written under a gunpoint as it is a very common practice in china.

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Your remarks are extraordinary. Whatever happened to the notion that art should be judged aesthetically, not politically? I mean, we are talking about a movie, aren't we?

Whatever, it's difficult to take you seriously when you suggest that I "believe that [the] Chinese government has done nothing wrong." I nearly fell off my chair laughing when I read that - as did everyone I showed it to. Have you confused me with someone else? Are you on crack? Or are you just profoundly intellectually deficient?

For the record, I consider the Chinese government - past and present - to be a profoundly reactionary regime (which is exactly what I've said previously). It's a fitting testimony to the parlous state of critical thinking today that having no sympathy for the Dalai Lama (and the feudal despotism and religious obscurantism he espouses) is supposedly an indication that one must be in the pay of China. Truth be told, the ideas I've espoused for most of my adult life would've put me in a Chinese prison - or worse. No doubt about it, kuch: you're a purveyor of the kind of village gossip that would make an idiot proud. If I'm mistaken on that score, perhaps you could answer the substantive points made in the two articles I've posted. Or, at the very least, tell me which bits are untrue. I wait with baited breath.

As for the film, Philip Glass's wonderful music aside, it paints a picture of Buddhism so rosy that it manages to cloak the grotesque inequalities between the poor and the 'godly' priesthood. Still, if you like that kind of thing, why not campaign against democracy in all its forms and opt for the kind of divine god-kings who don't believe they need to justify their existence. (It'd be interesting to see how you'd react if George Bush declared on TV that he's been chosen by god to 'spread the word'.)

Apparently, Dalai Lama means 'Ocean of Wisdom'. Feel free to swim in it. In the meantime, I'll pursue reason and rationality, democracy and freedom, liberty and equality (ideas for which the DL has nothing but contempt).


The lion and the calf shall lie down together, but the calf won't get much sleep.

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If your intentions truly are to critique “Kundun” as an art form, then you surely are entitled to your opinion. I too felt “Kundun” was far from scoresese’s best work. But anyone can at least appreciate his vision to be able to capture the mysticism that is Tibetan Buddhism/culture.

I however have strong doubt about your intentions. It is quite clear from some of your other posts on this message board that you do indeed have a personal agenda against Dalai Lama. I only wish I could understand why you have such hatred for a man who has dedicated his life in the pursuit of universal peace and harmony. He has witnessed hundreds of thousands of his Tibetan followers massacred simply for believing in what he stood for. Yet he only has empathy for those who committed the genocide, and prays for their well being. If such act of humamity and love infuriates you, I really am concerned for you.

You have claimed to be an advocate of reason, rationality, democracy, freedom, liberty and equality, yet you detest the very person who truly epitomizes these values. Whatever your ulterior motives are, I do hope you will find peace with yourself, and not let this rage devour you from inside.

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Thanks for the strangely disingenuous and deeply patronising response. Still, my hopes weren’t high. Thus:

It is quite clear from some of your other posts on this message board that you do indeed have a personal agenda against Dalai Lama. I only wish I could understand why you have such hatred for a man who has dedicated his life in the pursuit of universal peace and harmony.... I do hope you will find peace with yourself, and not let this rage devour you from inside.

Although I was preoccupied with preventing the vomit from finding a path between my fingers, your words can roughly be translated as, “forgive him for he knows not what he does”. Purrleeeez!

Such a shame, because this was bordering on the thoughtful:

But anyone can at least appreciate his vision to be able to capture the mysticism that is Tibetan Buddhism/culture.

I don’t agree, but that’s a perfectly reasonable comment. But, oddly, you say: If your intentions truly are to critique “Kundun” as an art form, then you surely are entitled to your opinion. Thank you so very much for conceding that I'm entitled to my opinion but, self-evidently, I have not used this forum to critique “Kundun” as an art form (I think you mean, ‘work of art’; cinema is an art-form, not Kundun). Of course, I'm open to criticism for not doing so, but you seemed keen enough to take up my challenge to use this as a political forum. So, some consistency on your part would be most welcome, kuch.

Finally, you’ve proved your singular inability to address a single substantive point raised, hence your cavalier dismissal of matters of world-historical importance with the disingenuous suggestion that my deeply held commitment to social equality is a ‘personal’ grudge. No doubt, those of us who’ve spent much of our adult lives fighting against racism, for example, have - in your myopic view of the world - mere ‘personal issues’ to resolve. It sticks in my craw just to type it.

It is quite clear from some of your other posts on this message board that you do indeed have a personal agenda against Dalai Lama. I only wish I could understand why you have such hatred for a man who has dedicated his life in the pursuit of universal peace and harmony.

I also believe in the abolition of the monarchy. Don’t tell me, you think that’s ‘personal’ too? I feel no hatred for the DL, just as I have no opinion on the Queen. I do, however, despair at the self-inflicted blindness of romantics like you. Why oh why do you refuse to address the rather thorny issues raised by the reality of the kind of society presided over by your beloved Ocean of Wisdom?

The lion and the calf shall lie down together, but the calf won't get much sleep.

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Let me guess? Fresh out of grad school? All you seem to be doing is falsifying the previous posters comments with your "fancy words". In plain English, please deter yourself from picking apart every little thing the poster has said. The Dali Lama is a great man, maybe if you read into the Buddhist religion more you would realize this. Yes, the Tibetan ways may be radically different from typical Western Culture but that does not make it wrong.

-Jim


There is no need for desires or conquest.

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Ah, Buddhism. Let's all embrace the total dissolution of the self! Such an inspiring vision for the oppressed the world over. If only the Western Lama groupies would disappear up their own fundament too.

Fresh out of 'grad school'? I wish. Most of my former students had trouble stringing a decence sentence together, never mind articulating passionately helf beliefs. It's sad that you lot can only cast aspersions, resort to personal insults and argue by distortion. Or, in the above case, turn to cultural relativism, the trump card for apologists of social inequality, grinding poverty and the desperate existence of the serf.

Bye bye.

The lion and the calf shall lie down together, but the calf won't get much sleep.

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Podwilliams wrote:
No-one will persuade me that it's anything other than a tedious, sentimental and patronising film, with the usual Hollywood fawning over the 'exotic'. Despite it's stylised approach, at least Gangs of New York didn't abandon something resembling the pursuit of truth.

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Well, so what? I pretty much agree, it is a boring movie and it doesn't present the tibetan culture in the critical light it deserves. But noone is requested to leave her brain behind when entering the cinema, and it is possible to remain critical and question, whether the way the tibetan society was run under the traditional rule, really was as cute & nice as the movie shows, or whether it was really just a primitive theocraty. Maybe it was both.

The Movie gives one side of the picture, and you surely would have to take it with a grain of salt.

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I think I know where you're coming from, but if a film presents itself as an honest, naturalistic, historically accurate film - as this film surely does, then it's only reasonable to expect that it be judged by its own standards. Art should generally be assessed by aesthetic criteria, not political criteria, but this film doesn't bear scrutiny on the basis of either.

The lion and the calf shall lie down together, but the calf won't get much sleep.

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...if a film presents itself as an honest, naturalistic, historically accurate film - as this film surely does, then it's only reasonable to expect that it be judged by its own standards...

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No, that's not the case. The movie clearly states that it's based on Dalai Lama's autobiography and made in cooperation with him. The movie tells one side of the story and it is decidedly not objective - and it doesn't claim to be.
I obviously agree that there is another side to the story and that well-founded arguments can be raised against the tibetan society and religious system in Tibet, but the objective of the movie is to portray Dalai Lama as a saint-like figure and it should be judged on those terms.

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Well, there's the rub. Co-operating with the DL in the making of a film about him is akin to inviting the U.K.'s 'Independent Police Commission' to supervise a movie about the police. That such an analogy is inevitably perplexing to the Lama groupies only indicates how blinded they are by their own exoticism.

The objective of the movie is to portray Dalai Lama as a saint-like figure and it should be judged on those terms.

Indeed, which is why I can't think of a better reason to loathe it.


The lion and the calf shall lie down together, but the calf won't get much sleep.

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Co-operating with the DL in the making of a film about him is akin to inviting the U.K.'s 'Independent Police Commission' to supervise a movie about the police.

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Well it's not a story about Dalai Lama It's Dalai Lama's Story. There's a difference. Compare it with Gandhi and Patton. Gandhi is also very clearly made to be Gandhi's story, it's a complete whitewash of him and he's made out to be a Jesus-like figure. It doesn't really matter whether this is accurate or not, since the message of the movie is to promote some ideals that are hard to disagree with. On the other hand, when you see Patton you expect a truthful account of his life and character, and then the accuracy of details become important. When that movie fails to convey his obvious and persistent racism, the movie fails to achieve it's goal.

As I see it, the goal of Kundun is to tell Dalai Lama's story and to use that story as a vehicle for promotion of a set of values that may be naive, but are mostly harmless. I don't think you disagree, that independence or at least a higher degree of self-governance would be preferable for Tibet?
Wouldn't you also agree that Dalai Lama has shown some degree of democratic disposition? Autonomy for Tibet then wouldn't necessarily mean a return to a feudal society?

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"The objective of the movie is to portray Dalai Lama as a saint-like figure and it should be judged on those terms."

No, quite the opposite. It's his humanity which is at the fore, in this film.


"Sure, who doesn't like tits?"
Leonardo DiCaprio in The Aviator.

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AJB, all I have left to say to you is that 'bitterness' and 'absolutism' are far from my life. A life-long commitment to social equality and human liberation, on the one hand, and not having to live as a serf in Tibet, on the other, have no doubt helped in this regard.

The lion and the calf shall lie down together, but the calf won't get much sleep.

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You remind me of a story that goes like this:

A boy looks towards a field full of cows and says to his father, why don't we go and *beep* one of those, the father turns and says, why don't we go down there and *beep* them all!

'He had the biggest reputation in Essex county...' - Richie Aprille - The Sopranos.

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first of all, the dalai lama has contempt for nothing, thats why people like him, not because hes "exotic"
secondly, george bush did say that god had chosen him to spread the word!
he said that god told him to run for president and his primary advisor is god. and his policies are clearly christian.

and thirdly (and longestly), i know sombody whose sort of like you, or he holds similar belifes, he's always saying somthing interesting but he just looses sight of his goal and goes way to far after hes talking for a while. but you are just so bitter and absolute about everything. i try in everything i do to maintain an open mind so that if somebody can argue a convincing and acurate case i won't be to stuck in my ways to change my outlook. and by that i don't mean that i follow anyone who can string together pretty words, i mean that i'm open to a strong argument. but none of your arguments have any strength. your articals are by people who ignore evidence and use radicalised arguments (and not radicalised in the good way, i'm always up for the occasional radical movement). and they're only slightly less embittered then you. you seem like a really crusty, embittered, sad old man or (like the other person said) fresh out of grad school and aiming to "stir the turd" as they say.
I have nothing against what your goal is, of pursuing freedom, democracy, equality etc. i'm very much for all of those things, and in a way that is not perticuarly mainstream, i'm deffinatly unusual. I think we have more in common than i'd like to admit at this point because i'm so against you on the issue of the dalai lama. hes just not the tyrant you claim him to be.
even if you have legitimate complaits about the old fashioned method of running tibet, your being far to close minded in your approch. you sort of throwing out the baby with the bathwater when its critically important that we're very very careful about what aspects of tibetan culture we let go of.
also, you seem to forget that any problems you have with the old ways of tibet are not issues this dalai lama had anything to do with. he was found at the age of somthing like four or five and spent most of his life as the dalai lama being sheperded around from class to class to prayer to prayer all day by the monks in charge of him. he spent only a fairly brief period in control without a regent. and almost all of that period was taken up with dealing with china.
as i said earlier, you do raise legitimate issues about the social order of the tibetan people, but where you go wrong with it is that you take it to an extreme. you say that they were all serfs with no sense of human rights. and while it can be argued that they fit the definition of serf in that the land they owned was owned by a landlord or a monastery, your putting it in an ulra negative light. it doesn't mean they had bad lives, its not an ideal situation, and its not modern or somthing that should be brought back. but they weren't suffering and in many cases they weren't hurting at all. they are a fairly simple, humble culture.
I give you this example:

"Ms Dhondup Chodon comes from a family that was among the poorest social strata in independent Tibet. Reminiscing her life before the Chinese occupation in her book, Life in the Red Flag People's Commune, she said:

I belong to what the Chinese now term as serfs of Tibet. ... There were six of us in the family. ... My home was a double-storeyed building with a walled compound. On the ground floor we used to keep our animals. We had four yaks, 27 sheep and goats, two donkeys and a land-holding of four and a half khel (0.37 hectares). ... We never had any difficulty earning our livelihood. There was not a single beggar in our area."

then i have this larger excerpt to supliment it:

"The present Fourteenth Dalai Lama attempted to introduce far- reaching administrative and land reforms. He proposed that all large estate holdings of monasteries and individuals be acquired by the state for distribution amongst peasants. He created a special reform committee which reduced land tax on peasants. The reform committee was authorised to hear and redress complaints by individuals against the district or local authorities. He approved the proposal for debt exemption submitted by this committee. Peasant debtors were categorised into three groups: those who could not pay either their accumulated interest or repay capital were freed from debt altogether; those who could not pay the interest out of their annual earnings, but had saved up enough to repay the capital, were ordered to make repayments in instalments and those who had become wealthy over the course of years were made to pay both capital and interest in instalments. The Dalai Lama ordered that in future no transport service should be demanded without the special sanction of the government. He also increased the rates to be paid for transport service.
Famine and starvation were unheard of in independent Tibet. There were, of course, years of poor harvest and crop failures. But people could easily borrow from the buffer stock held by the district administrations, monasteries, aristocrats and rich farmers."

Now i know your still concerned that the evil dalai lama will find a way to enslave his subjects just as soon as he can get his country back in his grip so i have another excerpt which is a very short summery that you can get the full outline of, as well as a lot more on the official government in exile's website, which i'm sure your not going to think is worth a *beep* because its a website run by that monerous tyrant and hes just lieing through his teeth so he can rape the women and children once their lulled into a false sense of sucurity. but, these are official actions already taken by the government. its not within his power anymore to stop them. as soon as tibet is back in tibet control all of proposals and outlines go into effect and he can't stop them cause people are already appointed to run them independently. and if he tries, at least you'll be able to march up to him and say "i read your outline and your backing out of it. i won't let that happen" and i'm sure you be everybodies hero.

"The guidelines for Tibet's future polity stated:
Future Tibet shall be a peace-loving nation, adhering to the principle of ahimsa (non-violence). It shall have a democratic system of government committed to preserving a clean, healthy and beautiful environment. Tibet shall be a completely demilitarised nation."

also...

"On 10 March 1969, the Dalai Lama announced that on the day Tibet regained its independence the Tibetan people must decide for themselves as to what kind of system of government they wanted"

and i should point out that hollywood and high fashion have not influence my views on tibet at all, i was a tibetan supporter before tibetan buddhism was the "in" religion in hollywood and nyc.

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one musnät forget as well, that the Dalai Lama himself has encouraged democratic reform among Tibetans. yet they have approved greater power to him. yet, I have been to Tibet, and everybody (who were Tibetan and not Han Chinese) asked me for a photograph of the Dalai Lama. Although the number of 2,000,000 Tibetans killed since the Chinese occupation is debatable. one thing remains true... if all the Tibetans i met risked harm to themselves just by asking me for a photograph of the Dalai Lama i bear the burden of their lives! but as his holiness would say, we must not think simply of our liftime. tibet will be free once more... but the signs that say "free tibet" must stop, for these signs should truly say "free china" as this is the only possible way towards a free tibet!

"I am not who I think you are"-AMTJ

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how much time did you spend in Tibet?
and if you were there recently, whats the progress so far of the railroad from china?
i'm just curious for an insiders opinion, i'm not quizing you or anything

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Boring, boring, boring movie. I know what you Scorcese lovers will say: "you just didnt understand it" "it was visually stunning, a masterpiece, great cinematography" Shut up. I understood that he picked this story knowing it would get critically acclaimed. When's the last time a story like this didnt get nominated for a bunch of awards, especially with a director like Martin Borcese behind it. The conversation in this movie was so uninteresting. If there is going to be nothing happening except talking, the talking should at least be engaging or intelligent. I fell asleep my first attempt watching this movie, I literally was so put off that my eyes refused to remain open. The thing that bothered me the whole time during the movie was how it was totally unnecessary for the movie to be in English w/heavy Tibetan accents. Why not just have them speak their native tongue and use subtitles? That would have made the movie a LOT easier to follow. Scorcese is competing with Wolfgang Peterson as the boringest director today. Did you see the Aviator? or the ridiculosly cheap action sequences in Gangs of New York? Scorceses recent movies suck.

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if you were watching it at home and you couldn't understand the accents, why didn't you just turn on the subtitles?

But if you couldn't understand what they were saying, how can you critisize the movie for having uninteresting diologue? that seems a little contradictory, or at least short sighted.

It also sounds like your not someone who has much interest in the movies subject, so i don't know why you cared to see it in the first place.

Bottom line, if you were uniterested, unable to understand the diologue, and had trouble following it in general, then how do you feel qualified to critique it?

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1. you didnt have to hear the entire dialogue to know what was happening in the story. it's just frustrating that the accents were so thick that i had to turn on the subtitles.
2. i was very interested in the subject of the movie. though in hind sight what i intended to rent was The Last Emperor and not Kundun.
3. I feel qualified because I watched the first 15 hours of the movie before I fast forwarded the rest of it. I feel qualified because I dont have a blind allegiance to Martin Scorcese. I feel qualified because I'm not a movie critic and therefore I wont instantaneously give a Scorcese movie a 9 or 10 out of 10 no matter how stretched out, gratuitously violent, or gratuitously boring it is.

I now understand Scorcese's obsession with organized crime. He's guilty of it. Making millions by selling books with blank pages to his blind allegiance.

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Who said anyone here is a Scorsese devotee? I know I'm not. I like some of his stuff, but I don't like others. I didn't care for the Aviator, nor did I like what I saw of Gangs of New York and I could go on from there. I did however like this.

Kundun and The Last Emperor are not quite the same subject. They do have some similarities, but theres a big difference between Tibetan and Chinese culture, and aside from that, both movies have different styles, though I enjoyed both.

I won't say that you didn't like Kundun because you didn't understand it, thats much too patronizing. But you appear to have little patience for it, also keep in mind that opinion and personal preference play a role. You say this is boring, nothing happened, the dialogue wasn't engaging. But a movie can be quiet and still good. Keep in mind that a major goal was to be historically accurate. You can't just add events to a true story to liven it up. I found that the style captured the reserved dignity of the Tibetan people.

Bottom line, don't call a movie bad just because it wasn't your style when many other people clearly like it for legitimate (non-Scorsese) reasons.

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eh this film isn't perfect. I understand that it covers a very sensitive issue, events, country and person etc. and thats probably why some ppl love this film so much
but judging objectively I find this film to be extremely deficient in fleshing out the 14th Dalai Lama as a human being. The film briefly shows this, yes, but mostly he is portrayed as a genuine saint instead of a man striving to be a saint.
For example does he ever have sexual urges? How does he deal with them?

Also most, if not All, of the other characters aren't well developed either. They basically float in and out of the film without making a mark.


The film otherwise has breath taking cinematography, music and acting.
Its a undeniably a hynoptic, mesmerising movie
but at the end it leaves me feeling unsatisfied and not particurly contemplative.


I personally think Samsara is a superior film...The Last Temptation of Christ is also good.

Kundun
7/10

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And the same people who gave "Kundun" a 1, are the same people who now have "The Dark Knght" as the number three movie of ALL TIME on the imdb Top 250.

'Nuff said.


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[deleted]

[deleted]

I gave it a 2. The movie was boring, plain and simple. The Dalai Lama's story, while interesting, doesn't make a good movie.

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This movie was pretty weak. I agree that samsara and every other thing reggio or fricke was involved in is much much better.

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