MovieChat Forums > Insomnia (1998) Discussion > swedish/norwegian language

swedish/norwegian language


Ok just out of curiosity, in the movie when Jonas would speak swedish to some of the characters (ex; the classroom scene, and also in the interrogation room to the girls boyfriend) It was brought up that they didint understand him. also that the only reason Tanja understood him when he spoke it was because she had been around swedes before or something?
Now I speak or understand neither, but I was told (by a norwegian speaking norwegian lol) that swedish, norwegian and even danish were mutually intelligible languages. So once I saw the movie and heard this it kinda confused me. And maybe Im missing something here, but either way, if someone could help clarify this up for me that'd be great, thanks!

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To say they are mutually intelligible languages is true to an extent, but not to all people. It only really is to those who are used to listening to the languages etc. Most people in the south-east of Norway are good at understanding Swedish, mainly because they grew up with Swedish television in the 1970s and upwards. But in the north where they didn't get Swedish television this has also resulted in a harder time to understand Swedish. They get it, but they might not get as much as many others. So it is pretty realistic that they would have problems understanding him in the north, while in other regions of Norway his Swedish was never really a problem. That said, Swedes who live/work in Norway for years often turn to a sort of "svorsk" (Svensk-Norsk/Swedish-Norwegian) language where they make themselves even more understandable.

Another thing: Swedes often have a much harder time understanding Norwegian than Norwegians have understanding Swedish, this is much because Swedish culture (like television, music and so on) was more dominating and influentual on Norway than the other way around. For example they never used to get Norwegian television in Sweden. Norway always used to be the little brother of Scandinavia and this has resulted in its citizens being more knowledgeable about their "bigger brothers" than the other way around. This hopefully has started to change now that Norway is rolling around in wealth from their oil industry and has really taken on the part as the most successful and dominating of the 3 Scandinavian countries.

Personally I have no problems understanding Swedish, with Danish however it is a little tougher, because when Danes speak it almost sounds like they have a potato stuck in their throat. I know for a fact that Norwegians have a FAR easier time understanding Danish than Swedes do though, as Danish and Norwegian is more related (especially visible in written form). Also, Norway was in a union with Denmark and then with Sweden. Sweden and Denmark however never had this historic tie so as a result Norway's bond with Sweden and Denmark has always been better than it has between Denmark-Sweden (don't get me wrong, they're still close but Norwegians feel they can relate even closer to their fellow Scandinavian countries than perhaps the other two does).

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Wow that was awesome man! Ive always had a fassination with other cultures, so I like to learn as much as I can about them. You seem to know a lot about scandinavia (Im assuming your norwegian). Thanks for clearing that up for me.

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My pleasure. Norwegian, born and raised, and like most Norwegians who grew up in the south-east part of the country I was also raised on Swedish television along with the Norwegian channels. I also spent plenty of summers in Sweden growing up and today one of my best friends is a Swede living in Norway, so I've gotten a first hand look at the differences between the languages, how the Swedes have a harder time understanding the Norwegian etc and oh.. I better stop before I repeat myself :P

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[deleted]

Your on a roll, don't stop, I have more questions lol! Ive noticed you guys (norwegians, swedes)that Ive talked to seem to know/speak english just about as well as most americans do lol. Besides english do they teach any other langues while in school? Ive also noticed that some norsk/svenska words look similar to english words (aswell as your alphabet to ours) but am not sure how close they sound once pronounced. Being a speaker of both, are they really as similar as they look? ...and maybe thats why you guys speak english well idk

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besides english, norwegian students can choose french, german or spanish if they want. some schools even teach latin.

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Thats cool. Where Im from in NC all schools teach spanish, and a few will teach french

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I have a question for you scandinavians here.

In the American version, Pacinos character is called "Dormer" a clearly ironic reference as it means "to sleep" in French.

I checked the original version to see if there was a similar reference in Skarsgaard's name and found that it was Engström.

In Swedish, "dröm" is "dream"; "anxiety" is "engstelse"

so, does the name Engström hint subliminally at the state of restless dreaming you get in the hypnagogic stupor between sleep and awakening...

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No, sorry, but the name Engström has nothing to do with insomnia or anything similar to it. Ström (as in engStröm) means stream, and it's a somewhat common name in sweden.

Separated, Eng just means meadow, however we spell it Äng.

So no connection there.

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Well the Engström-thing is interesting though. The guys who wrote "Insomnia" (Nikolaj Frobenius with help from director Erik Skjoldbjærg) were after all Norwegian and it could be that to them they found the name a bit funny, as it sounds slightly like "angst-drøm" (which would be Norwegian for anxiety-dream) :)

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I have a question for you scandinavians here.

In the American version, Pacinos character is called "Dormer" a clearly ironic reference as it means "to sleep" in French.

I checked the original version to see if there was a similar reference in Skarsgaard's name and found that it was Engström.

In Swedish, "dröm" is "dream"; "anxiety" is "engstelse"

so, does the name Engström hint subliminally at the state of restless dreaming you get in the hypnagogic stupor between sleep and awakening...


Not really as the poster earlier explained, but Engstrøm can sound very familiar to En Drøm, which means "a dream". It's possible they chose the name for that effect, to describe his state of being as dreamlike.

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jkwarps: " Ive also noticed that some norsk/svenska words look similar to english words (aswell as your alphabet to ours) but am not sure how close they sound once pronounced. Being a speaker of both, are they really as similar as they look?"


This is true. One would think that the English language influenced the Norwegian/Swedish, but it's actually the other way around! :)
This goes way back to the times when the Scandinavian Vikings sailed around and "raped and pillaged." The thing is, that along with being powerful warriors, the Vikings were actually influental explorers, settlers and traders as well!
So lots of Scandinavians settled around Scotland and eastern England, and thereby brought their language with them.
For example, "bag" is from an old Norse word "baggi", though this isn't commonly used anymore as the old Norse language basically died with about half of Norway's population in the great plague in 1349.

The reason most Norwegians and Swedes are exeptionally fluent in English is that, alongside with a great educational system (English being compulsory from elementary school), we have always been culturally open. We've always had American/English movies and series on TV and cinema, and the oil rush in the 70's really opened the borders languagewise, with lots of international workers on the platforms etc.

So... yeah.. Scandinavians rule! :D

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It's very comparable to The Netherlands. We're a small country, we don't expect anyone to learn Dutch, so most of us speak English (and sometimes French, German, Spanish). We watch American TV all the time, with subtitles.

I'm slowly trying to learn Norwegian, because I like the country and language (and some people).

Can anyone tell me if this is correct: Norsk and Dansk look a lot like eachother when written (even so much that some manuals/ingredients combine those 2), but they sound very different when spoken. Norsk sounds more like Svenska, but that one is written in a quite different way...
Does that make any sense? It's the impression I got from Scandinavian people who I know online.

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Sorry, tlotr tloz, I can't really help you much about Norsk-Dansk, but I was interested in your comments on The Netherlands. When I was in your country, I had absolutely no trouble being understood in English, and I was most impressed. I'm from Canada, where about 8 million (of 33 million total) use French as a first language. About 90% also speak English and many are perfectly bilingual.

I'm fascinated and very impressed by the linguistic realism in The Netherlands and Scandinavia, where people routinely know at least two other languages (English and, as you point out, often German, French and perhaps ANOTHER language or even two; in English, we call that overachieving).

We're very linguistically lazy in English-speaking North America. In the U.S., it gets almost comical. They're almost proud of speaking only English (some dunderheads call it 'American'). Talk about a cultural void.

"We're a small country, we don't expect anyone to learn Dutch," you say. Interesting, because a similar sentiment was repeated many times when I was in Sweden and Norway. Many people said that they learned English (and other languages too, particularly German) because their languages were 'useless' outside their borders. They simply accepted it; they didn't say it with any sense of bitterness, but as an expression of linguistic reality.

I always remember an elderly man I stopped on a Stockholm street about 15 years ago. I asked him if he spoke English. He said "a little bit". I then asked, in laboriously slow English to ensure he would understand, if he could direct me to the university campus where I was staying. He then proceeded to give me the directions in rapid-fire, almost perfect English. I remember saying to him: "If you speak English 'a little bit' I don't know what 'broken English' is." Very impressive people. We in North America are not culturally attuned to the notion that the acquisition of another language (or two or three) intellecutally exercises the mind and nourishes new ways of thinking.

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[deleted]

I get really sick of people who say Americans are "ignorant" because they don't know another language. Well let me offer you some practical reasons why this might be. 1) English is the universal language. This could be a deterrent to learning another language, if everywhere you go they're just going to speak English anyway. I have attempted to learn various languages throughout my life, and have not remembered anything because I am not immersed in, for example, Italian pop culture, the way that the rest of the world is immersed in American pop culture. It really helps in learning if everyone around you speaks the language, and here that's just not reality. 2) the U.S. is HUGE. In europe, you go 100 miles and find another country/culture/language. In the U.S. this would be like traveling to another state. Sure you might say that Americans are "unwordly," but how many states have you been to? Now imagine if those states were countries like in Europe, and I bet you have traveled more than you think. Now what if all those states had different languages? Schools would automatically teach 10 years of a neighboring language instead of the current 2, as a practical matter, not as what you view as cultural superiority.

Anyways I enjoyed the movie and thanks to the OP for pointing out the language question, as I wondered myself.

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English is not the 'universal' language. It may be a popular language due to business, political, and cultural influences, however, Hindi and Mandarin are considered to be more widely spoken. If the U.S. was not a significant world power, yes, it would be ignorant to not speak another language.

It is possible to immerse yourself in foreign languages, here in Canada (as in many other countries, including the U.S. if I'm not mistaken) we choose to have schools and university faculties that support and embrace the immersion experience and we also choose to send our children to these places.

In many countries government employees are hired based on their knowledge of foreign languages believing that understanding other languages and cultures improves international relations and enables us to better understand the world in which we live.

But you are right, why bother to learn another language if, as you so brilliantly stated, "everywhere you go they're just going to speak English anyway"??? This view speaks volumes and echoes largely of the criticism that the U.S. receives regarding its so-called 'ignorance'.

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tlotr_tloz, it's right that Norsk and Dansk looks very much like each other when written. It's very rare to find a user manual written in both Norsk and Dansk. The reason they sound so differently when spoken (this is my opinion, don’t mean to offend any Danish people) is because people who speak Dansk “swallow half the word” if you get me. It sounds like they only pronounce half of the word, especially when they speak fast.

It might be easier to understand Svensk (I’m Norwegian and I think so), but the language doesn’t have as much similar words as Dansk. It’s more like a different language with words that’s not similar at all.
I find Svensk easier to understand because of the way they speak, not so much because the language is more similar to Norsk.

An example is the word ice cream. In Norwegian that is “is” and in Swedish it is “glass”. The word “glass” means jar in Norwegian or glass (what you drink from). So it’s more different words here.

But this is only my opinion. Some probably find Dansk easier to understand.

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To sum up; reading Danish is easier than reading Swedish, but listening to Swedish (and understand it) is easier than listening to Danish.

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I think I can shed some light on the Norsk-Dansk issue (albeit a bit late).

Norsk (the written language) is basically modified Dansk. As Renaldo Matlin mentioned Norway has been in union with both Denmark and Sweden. The first of these unions was between Denmark and Norway. It started out as two countries who shared regent, but eventually Denmark controlled more and more. This union lasted for more than 400 years from 1387 to 1814. The end of the union came when Denmark had to hand over Norway to Sweden. The reason for this is complicated. Put simply it was because Danmark-Norge sided with Napoleon in the last of the Napolean wars, while Sweden fought on the coalition side. The coalition won and Sweden got the spoils of war (Norway). Then from 1814 to 1905 Norway was in a union with Sweden. The union was dissolved peacefully (barely) in 1905.

During the years of union with Denmark Danish was the written language. It has been modified a bit in the last 200 years but as you see, it started out as Danish. The spoken language in Norway sounds a lot more than Swedish than Danish, but this is because Norway and Sweden border to each other.

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You don't have to be raised the south-east of Norway to understand swedish... but you probably "know" more about Sweden than about the rest of your country. People on the west coast and in the north have the same knowlege about our neighbour in the east.

And the things you said about the danes... embarassing.

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Did Stellan have to learn another language then to make this movie or would it be pretty easy for the Swedish to pick up Noweigan altho noone in this movie could understand Swedish ...

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Renaldo Matlin said

Personally I have no problems understanding Swedish, with Danish however it is a little tougher, because when Danes speak it almost sounds like they have a potato stuck in their throat.
I've seen far more Swedish than either Norwegian or Danish movies, but I've always been struck by how even Swedes tend to swallow half their words. Compare this to German movies, where in most films all the dialog is spoken in very clearly enunciated Hochdeutsch, and is very easy for a non-speaker to follow what is being said, even without comprehension of the meaning.

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In Kitchen Stories a Norwegian and a Swede converse throughout the movie without difficulty.

If anyone is interested in trying to hear the differences, in Sult (Hunger, 1966) the various actors are all speaking in their native languages - Swedish, Norwegian and Danish. (IMDb shows the language as being Danish, but this isn't really correct. In fact all of the non-principal actors and extras are speaking Norwegian.)

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Ok, there is a lot of people that are experts with the Scandinavian languages :) Now, taking a risk to go a little off topic, could someone explain where Finland fits? I mean, are the Finnish people, like the Norwegians, Swedes and Danes, "former vikings"? I have seen movies from Norway, Sweden and Finland, and Finnish sounds completely different from the rest of the Scandinavian countries (it looks very different in the written form too).

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The deal with Finland and the finnish language are a completely different story.
The swedes ruled the provinces we now call Finland from 1249 to 1809, when Finland became an autonomous Grand Duchy in the Russian Empire until the end of 1917, when the independent nation of Finland was formed.
The swedish influence is still present and today Finland is officially a two-language country, though the majority (90%) speak finnish.
Finnish is a totally different language than the scandinavian languages.
It belongs to the Finno-Ugric language family and is most closely related to Estonian.

Fingal61

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Late answer but if somebody else wondered...

Finish is not a Scandinavian language at all, and the fins are not reckoned as scandinavians neither is the country of Finland a scandinavian country, even though it is a part of the Scandinavian Peninsula. So basicly Scandinavia is Norway, Sweden and Denmark, but the Scandinavian Peninsula consist of Norway, Sweden and Finland, and sometimes we talk about the nordic countries and that is Norway, Sweden Denmark, Finland, Iceland and the Faroe Island. The reason why Faroe Island and Iceland is not considered as a part Scandinavia even if the people living there was a part of the Scandinavian Viking culture, is because they are Island and have been quite isolated from the rest of the orginaly norse country. So Iceland and Faroe do not share so much of the modern scandinavian language and culture, but is more based on the original norse culture and language.

When it comes to Finland they do not share a norse or scandinavian culture at all, the origin of the finish language is in the Finno-Ugric language group (a group outside of the Indo-European Language group where all Germanic, Roman, Slavic, Hindi languages etc. belongs). A group consisting of Finnish, Estonian, Hungarian and a lot of the small languages speaking by the ethnic group called the Sammi people in the north of scandinavia. Finnish together with Estonian belongs to the Baltic-Finnic undergroup of the Finno-Ugric group. So basicly finnish language is not just not a scandinavian language, it is not a indo-european language at all. I have no clue why Finland and Hungary two countries in completly different part of Europa have similar languages that are not related to any other countries languages, but at least thats the way it is.

If any Finns read this i would be curious to know if Estonian and Finnish is mutually understandable, i try to find out but i could not really find?

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A late and maybe useless reply, but I want to comment on the interrogation scene with the girl's boyfriend. I reckon it's pretty obvious that the boyfriend understands Jonas completely, but that he wants to give the impression towards the officers that he's not to be *beep* with. Therefore Engstrøm, being a Swedish detective in Norway in a "why the hell is HE here?!" kinda way, is an easy target. He's now made his mark.

This also explains the fact that no other Norwegian has problems with Jonas' Swedish tongue during the rest of the film. Renaldo has already given you plenty of info about this fact already :)

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There's been a lot of back and forth and this and that about this, the bottom line is, norwegians, Danes and Swedes mostly understand each other like for instance an American and an Irish person would. Some words might be different, but when push comes to shove, we understand each other just fine.

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[deleted]

Swedish, norwegian and danish are pretty much the same language. I'm swedish myself and I have no problem reading in either lanuage. The written languages are very similar, some words are different but most words are the same or similar. However the different dialects sometimes makes it hard and nearly impossible to understand the spoken languages. Some norwegians are easy for me to understand and some are very hard, same goes for the danes.

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Thank you for the information. I finally watched Insomnia, and the language question lingered. I believe that I heard the difference in sound between the languages. From what I am told, Norweig is more clear and "sing-song" sounding, while Swedish sounds more jumbled together between words. I hope that didn't come off as offensive, just a difference in language cadence.

I also had a boyfriend from Helsingbourg, but of Danish descent, who lived in Norway for a decade. He said he spoke all three with absolute fluency, since he had to speak accurately to a: communicate with Dansk family b: run a business, etc....

I absolutely love that each and every Scandinavian and Netherlands person I've ever met speaks absolutely perfect english. Wish that more Americans understood the intellectual and diplomatic value of multi-lingualism!

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add the english to that

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About to watch this movie, but just had to defend Americans.
Plenty of us who go to college learn foreign languages and put them to use.
I myself know German, and taught myself a bit of French.
I am able to get by in Europe, German-speakers especially are surprised to hear me.

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[deleted]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differences_between_Norwegian_Bokmal_and_ Standard_Danish:

"Generally, speakers of the three largest Scandinavian languages (Danish, Norwegian and Swedish) can read each other's languages without great difficulty. This holds especially true of Danish and Norwegian. The primary obstacles to mutual comprehension are differences in pronunciation. Danish speakers generally do not understand Norwegian as well as the extremely similar written norms would lead one to expect. Some Norwegians also have problems understanding Danish, but according to a recent scientific investigation Norwegians are better at understanding both Danish and Swedish than Danes and Swedes are at understanding Norwegian. Nonetheless, Danish is widely reported to be the most incomprehensible language of the three."
...

"The difference in pronunciation between Norwegian and Danish is much more striking than the difference between Norwegian and Swedish. Although written Norwegian is very similar to Danish, spoken Norwegian more closely resembles Swedish.
...
It is often humorously claimed that Danes have an easier time understanding drunk Norwegians than sober ones, as the former often use a more slurred manner of speech that resembles Danish."

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"It is often humorously claimed that Danes have an easier time understanding drunk Norwegians than sober ones, as the former often use a more slurred manner of speech that resembles Danish."



Faith means making a virtue out of not thinking. - Bill Maher

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Not that it matters much, but historically, swedish and danish are more closely related than norwegian is with either of the other two. This is ofcourse no longer as obvious, since the most common type of norwegian (bokmål), is actually best described as written danish spoken with norwegian pronounciation (due to the fact that norway belonged to denmark for so long). There's another standard for written norwegian called "Nynorsk" (the result of an attempt to restore a more genuine language), which shows more noticable connections to icelandic and faroese (forming the western wing of the nordic languages). To make it a bit more complicated though, in some aspects Nynorsk also take on prominently swedish traits. When it comes down to it, the scandinavian languages are perhaps best described as continuum of dialects, rather than separate languages.

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When I lived in Austria I knew a few Norwegians and was suprised that I knew what a few norwegians spoke, but a girl that lived in another region had such bizarre dialect I had absolutely no clue. The Norwegians said however they understood every word I spoke, so they spoke english and i replayed in swedish... hehe

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At one point, this thread got into the controversy of the linguistic imperialism of USA-English. However, I'd also take note of the fact that the Norwegian film's original title is "Insomnia," instead of "Søvnløshet." Talk about "linguistic imperialism"! :)

Im Arme der Götter wuchs ich groß.--Friedrich Hölderlin

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