MovieChat Forums > In & Out (1997) Discussion > Am I the only one who felt totally betra...

Am I the only one who felt totally betrayed by the last part?


I liked this movie for the first hour or so.

The idea seemed to be to poke fun at homophobia, gay stereo-types, and typical small-town views of what a man should be. The point seemed to be that gay individuals are more than their stereotypes and one can be a perfectly heterosexual guy even if you do speak well, teach English, and are a bit neat (the Barbra Streisand thing is pushing it though...)

What I hated is that the last act totally invalidated the rest of the film. The second Kline's character decides he's gay, essentially says to the audience, "all the silly stereotypes, stuff like Bob Newhard asking him to 'walk for [him]' were right." It felt like such a betrayal of what the earlier parts had been going for.

Worse than that, the film just stopped being funny at that point. Part of what makes a good comedy is having a main character you can identify with who's put into crazy and frustrating circumstances. When we believe Kline is just a bit of a prissy guy who's now gotten outed by a former student, even though he's not gay, right before his wedding; it's really funny. You feel for him because he's not acting any different but now everyone else is treating him differently. When we find out he is gay, it's not really possible to identify with him. You start asking, "how the hell could he not have known at that age?" or "why should I feel bad for him when they were all right?"

I think this film really would have been a classic had it not been for the lousy final act. Shame.

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agreed. the film fails badly the minute he "decides" he is gay

you dont just decide your gay.

completely undermines the whole story

"Your about as mysterious to me as a toilet is to a plumber"

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He doesn't "decide" to be gay. He just enjoyed that kiss with Peter a little too much--more than with Emily or any woman--to be straight. I personally think that's the key scene to him accepting that he's gay; it wasn't just all of a sudden at the wedding.

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He doesn't "decide" to be gay. He just enjoyed that kiss with Peter a little too much--more than with Emily or any woman--to be straight.
So why doesn't that make him bisexual, or just plain confused after all the pressure to be gay? So yes, in a sense, he did "decide" to be gay.

A more thoughtful movie that didn't make everyone a stereotype and didn't have a cutesy, pat ending, would have been appreciated.

You will probably disagree. That's the nature of discussions -- they have two sides.

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I couldn't agree more. I thought the exact same thing. I did laugh at the scene when the tape was telling him how to be a man. But after that, it got stupid. I actually thought it might even be a little insulting to gays. I know it was insulting to my intelligence. So, if you're a guy and you like poetry, dancing and Streisand....then you're sexually attracted to men??

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I am a 47-year-old lifelong gay man and I didn't rush out to see this movie when it was released 12 years ago. I actually feared the likely portrayals of true homosexual men at the time. I finally saw it on private television several years ago. It is a good film as long as the viewer considers it in the context of its time period. Through all the rest of my years I will have a deep affection for this film. There simply ain't nothin' deeply wrong with this movie.

The main character never "decided" he was gay. He always knew deep down that he was a homosexual man and at the point of saying "I do" he came to be able to see it, accept it and publically declare it. The scene was played for humor, of course, but it is one of the most important moments of the whole story.

John Martin, Fort Worth, Texas, U.S.A.

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Someone needs to tell Seth MacFarlane that he's gay, what with his intimate knowledge of showtunes.

I actually just finished it now for the first time, and I have to agree with the op.

Sadly, for most of this movie, I really laughed at the views on being gay, and how the movie seemed so dated and not "with the times". Then I remembered the Prop 8 battle we had here in San Diego, and that bigotry and homophobia are still alive and well in this age. Sad.



http://us.imdb.com/name/nm2339870/

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I've just watched this again for the first time since 1997, and while I found it endearing and funny (laugh-out-loud funny in some parts, which is rare for me), I still have the same reservation about it that I had in 1997: Although it was written by a gay man, it's a "gay movie" for the straight, mainstream audience that buys most movie tickets, just as WILL AND GRACE was a "gay tv show" for straight, mainstream tv audiences.

We know NOTHING of Howard's life up to the point the film begins - we never know if he had an awkward moment along the way, or felt different from his friends, or questioned himself about anything. But no man reaches the age Howard is in this film without those moments of self-awareness along the way, whether he likes them or not (and he usually doesn't) or whether he buries them deep (which he usually tries to do) - they still happen. No, being a big Streisand fan isn't enough - she certainly has many straight fans. That was already a cliché long before this movie was even written, and Rudnick knew it.

"Somewhere along the line the world has lost all of its standards and all of its taste."

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I completely agree!

If the guy is straight and yet forced to deal with a community who's judging him as something he isn't, and struggling to disprove the small-town mentality of everyone around him, THEN it's a comedy.

If the guy is a gay-in-denial who's marrying a woman... Then it's a story about a gay guy who was about to trap a woman in a loveless marriage. This is suddenly not so funny.

And it's the fact he "comes out" ON THE WEDDING DAY that kills the funny. No matter how stupid/temperamental the Joan Cusack character is shown to be, she is still the victim and her pain cannot be played for laughs.

Like you, I didn't laugh beyond the wedding scene. I must admit I laughed at the "I'm gay" line, just because it was so shocking, but five seconds later I wised up and realized, "WOW, this just blew a huge great hole in the heart of the movie."

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I don't think the marriage would've been loveless. A tad sexless, maybe, but I think he did love her. Romantically, at the very least.

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Here's my problem with it. The first half isn't particularly funny. The 2nd half is somewhat touching. But they don't even feel like the same movie. They don't fit together at all and they aren't true to each other.

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The film plays on gay stereotypes, and does a great job of it. I didn't expect to know all about Howard's past, this film only covers a one week snapshot of his life. I just watched again after several years and it's just as funny as the first time. Remember, it's a comedy of a gay man who came out, not a a dramatic review of his life.

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I totally agreee! The first hour makes a great point. The second part negates the first!! It is a shame because it could of been a classic

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You read my mind, that was a total cop out ending. The ending that they went with just shows that you should never listen to what is in your heart, always listen and act on what people think of you and always follow the stereotype because it is an accurate portrayal of who you are. I truly wonder if the ending was a result of pressure, not just because such a lobby exists in Hollywood but because the whole film seemed like it was going in a more sensical direction before it stabbed logic in the back.

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You never even find out if he likes vagina because the richard simmons video freaks him out and he stops.

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The first half of the film sets up some potentially really interesting and politically important ideas, and then entirely ruins it in the second.

If Howard is a straight man, incorrectly outed, the film could be funny and very interesting. When his job is threatened purely because of his 'homosexuality' he is apparently faced with a very interesting dilemma - be honest about his heterosexuality and keep his job, or go along with the fact that everyone thinks he is gay in order to expose the discrimination that he faces as a result. This is a very interesting scenario, and could be both very funny, and very serious.It critiques pervasive sterotypes of gay men and makes points about prejudice and disrimination.

By having Howard as actually gay, the film bolsters all the ridiculous sterotypes that it appears to be attacking throughout the first act, and completely destroys its message. Insted the film becomes the prejudiced and discriminatory entity that it seemed to set itself up to expose.

Another area for a very interesting development is the pupil of Howard's who seems to think of himself as gay, and in prompting the otherwise awful spartacus-ending this character becomes an unhappy gay youth who believes the paranoid heterosexist concern that gay teachers can make kids gay, and so blames Howard for making him so. When he stands up it is to side with the homophobic teachers/parents and attack Howard. It is very sad and very funny therefore that this turns into a spartacus moment that saves Howard's job.

This again could have been played with in a really interesting way, have maintained the film as a comedy, but also engaed with some really interesting ideas and statements on homosexuality and bigotry. Insterd, the film seems to have accidentally hit on some fascinating small nuggets that expose and critique stereotypes and (external and internal)homophobia, but either doesn't realise it has hit on them, or just doesn't know what to do with them, and instead reinforces everything it has the potential to question. And that is when, as others have noted, it simply stops being funny.

Thoroughly disappointing, especially becasue the seeds are there - it is so frustrating to think how good it COULD have been.

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I don't think this movie is perfect in the way it handles the coming-out story, but the real "cop-out" would have been if Kevin Kline's character was revealed to be straight.

There's a long, ugly history of movies trying to make jokes about homosexuality without actually saying that any of the characters are gay. That lack of gay characters onscreen led to generations of gay men and lesbians growing up feeling like everyone was heterosexual but them.

And this movie is based on a true story about a gay teacher whose former student became famous and outed him at the Oscars, not realizing that the teacher wasn't out of the closet. To try to revise the story to make him straight would send the message that they needed to erase his gayness to "clean up" the story.

It would have been nice to see Hollywood acknowledge that there are straight men in the world who are cultured and sensitive and non-homophobic. But what would have been the actual plot if the teacher was straight? A guy is getting married, but people think he's gay because he isn't macho, and then...what? There would be no tension there, no real dilemma of any sort for the main character, and nowhere for the story to go - in other words, it would have none of the necessary ingredients for a comedy or a drama. The movie would last five minutes.

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I think it could have been much more funnier if he believes he is gay (while actually he is not) because of society's prejudgments about him. And then realizes he is actually straight and gone mad because of the pressure and the town's homophobia.

I liked the movie very much, really good and funny story, actors performances are great. But like the OP I also found the ending a disappointment. This could be a great comedy classic if they made a better ending.

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I felt the same way too. It was kind of an insult and invalidates the satirical nature of the first part. People were eager to point out something that he never felt because they were the insecure ones. It would've been fun if Matt Dillon's character turned out to be gay instead.

intrepid/stupid

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What else can I say? You really said it all. I agree 100 %.

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