I've never seen this movie and desperately want to...I recently been building a collection of "Homo" movies. Did the persecution and er..."camping" of homosexuals actually occur during the holocaust? Were there that many out homosexuals back then? I didn't think there were. I always thought that it was basically still non-existant until the sexual revolution...someon e wanna give me some incite...it'd be much appreciated.
shareGays were definitely a target of Hitler's social policies. During the early thirties, Germany and Berlin in particular were places where homosexuality was relatively open and more or less accepted. Hitler's strategy to gain and hold power was to target and scapegoat parts of society that didn't conform to his vision of Aryan superiority, and both gays and Jews were easy targets. The quantity of gays in the camps was considerably smaller than the 6 million Jews eventually targeted, which would be expected if Germany had the expected 3-6 percent of the population actually gay and only a small percentage of them easily identifiable. The other interesting thing is that it was suggested that several of Hitler's associates were, in fact gay, and promoted his persecution of gays as much to cover themselves as to any beliefs they shared with their boss.
Not having seen the movie, I can't say how accurate it is, but the pink triangle that today has become an emblem of gays did indeed originate in the camps of Nazi Germany.
Thanx....Much Appreciated
shareNo problem. Since I wrote the first note, I found a deal on the DVD and watched it the other night. I found it to be moving, though I think the folks that call it one of the best gay flicks ever may be overstating a bit. Like a lot of other Channel 4 (British) productions, it tends to suffer from a lack of character development. While I came to care some about the characters, I could see where others might not. Jagger and McKellan both have cameos, and while Jagger in drag was priceless, anyone could have played McKellan's role and no one would have been the wiser. What a waste of talent. Sir Ian has a lot to say about the gay experience; this movie didn't let him say it. Glad I added it to the library, regardless. This may be one of those movies that grows on you with successive viewings. We'll see. Regards, Jim
sharethe pink triangle did come from nazi germany it was used to classify such as the star of david and other triangles meaning various things.
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The quantity of gays in the camps was considerably smaller than the 6 million Jews eventually targeted, which would be expected if Germany had the expected 3-6 percent of the population actually gay and only a small percentage of them easily identifiable.
The other interesting thing is that it was suggested that several of Hitler's associates were, in fact gay, and promoted his persecution of gays as much to cover themselves as to any beliefs they shared with their boss.
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Good points, and it does make sense since it was a stage play before a movie. I assume the director chose to keep the theatrical flavor. I agree that the work, and the absence of other prisoners, is stylistic rather than factual.
shareI think it would be incredible to see this story performed on stage (depending on the actors/director, though, I guess, lol.) I would love to see it
shareI haven't seen the film....but wanted to comment on your statement "it's just carrying rocks from left to right and back which makes no sense." This is more than symbolism....this and things much like this often happened within concentration camps. It added to the hopelessness that the victims felt because what they were doing had absolutely no significance. It was just another tool to manipulate these people into having no "self-worth." So, at least in this regard, it is totally accurate.....
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You can disagree....but you'd be wrong. Obviously the Nazis did use the prisoners for constructive labor as well, but history tells us that they also had them doing meaningless tasks to break and demoralize them. They had a strong hatred and bigotry for the Jews and thus it wasn't a "waste" to see them doing senseless work.
shareActually he was right. I can't remember where I read this, either Night or Pink Triangle, but someone had a job that consisted completely of picking up snow, carrying it across a road and dumping it into a pile on the other side, then picking it up and dumping it back where they got it from. While they did have prisoners perform useful jobs, they often had them do stupid senseless work like that, too.
*I love that the movies I like get horrible reviews. It makes them come out on DVD earlier.*
When was the last time you were in a Concentration Camp? Wise up. Ask people who know. In the film it just epitomizes the futility or life.
shareActually I have been to visit three concentration camps, the Auschwitz camps, Sachsenhausen and Ravensbrück with friends. We had different guides. Some that knew about the camps by reading, and some that knew from experience. We met twol old men from Norway who had been in concentration camps when they were just teenagers.
They told us that indeed the prisoners were often put into useless circumstances, doing stuff that were only meant to drive them crazy.
Oh, and not that it has that much to do with the actual subject, what I find interesting is that they also told us about throwing hats on the fence and telling the prisoners to get them.
I understand what you are trying to say, but as much as it seemingly makes no sense to "waste" prisoners on senseless work, that is very much, quite characteristically in fact, what was done in Nazi concentration camps, something I've specifically learned in my holocaust studies. The purpose was to completely demoralise and dehumanise the prisoners, to rub in them so to speak how "worthless" they were. So the film is absolutely accurate in its depiction of those decidedly pointless tasks. It does also serve, however, I'm not sure if on purpose, the "stage feel" of the film; I've never seen the original play but it seems that the film is a very direct and very faithful presentation of the play.
shareReCon242 i'm not sure that "let" would be the appropriate word. i think forced would be a better word.
sharePick up a copy of the book "The Men with the Pink Triangle". It has historically acurate stories by those few homosexuals that were released from the camps, some of them were re-arrested under German sodomy laws and some escaped the clutches of further govermental persecution. The book is availabe at Barnes & Noble, Borders, or at Amazon.com
shareThanx...I actually went and bought it over the weekend...though I've only read the intro and part of chapter 1. I wish I could get a nice long chunk of time to sit down and read....time...ew
shareI have seen the movie and found it really moving. Relating to the subject of its historic accuracy, I think you might be interested in two documentals you can find around the net: "Paragraph 175", and "The Hidden Fuhrer" where they talk about the gay atmosphere of Pre-IInd World War Berlin, and the nazi attitudes towards gay people. Specially in the former one (narrated by Rupert Everett and with a serious approach to the subject) there are some testimonies of survivors of concentration camps. Hope it helps.
sharehave you seen before night falls? just the poster that said hiler targetes the gays made me think of before night fall - as castro wsnt fond of the perceived weak in society - old people/gays etc.
shareHomosexuality has been around since the beginning of time. In the second world war, if you were SUSPECTED of being homosexual, you were captured and taken to the concentration camps, and just as the jew getting a yellow star of david on their uniform, homosexuals received the upside down pink triangle. (a symbol still used today in the civil rights movement of GAY PRIDE) although, today, some gay men will turn the pink triangle up right (with the point up) in solidarity of Gay Pride, taking a negative time and making it a positive statement.
shareIn the second world war, if you were SUSPECTED of being homosexual, you were captured and taken to the concentration camps
Homosexuality has existed since man first walked the earth, have you never seen caligula? whats wrong with kids these days? The Catholic church invented the term to make it a sin. Now go google it and learn something. Sexuality/Sex/Gender is not a binary.
shareOf course, Hitler did not resent homosexuality on moral grounds, but rather saw gay men and women as being completely useless members of society, because they couldn't produce children. Himmler thought homosexuality was a state of mind, and that, with the proper treatment, homosexuals could be reformed. Of course, this was not the attitude taken in the concentration camps, where homosexual prisoners were regarded usually lower than Jews, assigned to the hardest work, given the fewest rations, and subjected to the worst punishment (being set on fire, beaten to death, urinated upon, repeatedly left tied naked for hours in cold weather, and then brought to a warm environment, messing up their bodies and making them sick), and they were more frequently used in scientific experiments, at least in the years prior to WWII.
shareErnst Rohm, who was one of Hitler's original Right hand Men and later leader of the SA Troops was Gay. Allegedly Hitler know it but ignored it for as long as possible because Rohm was very useful to him in helping him to gain Power. Rohm was eventually executed though I understand that it was more for that he was accused of being involved in a plot to Assassinate Hitler than his Sexuality, though I suspect that the latter would have eventually lead to his downfall in Hitler's ranks if he'd still been around once Hitler gained his Dictatorial Powers.
shareI have been to a concentration camp once before and it really scared the hell out of me... *shudder* and the rock-carrying thing is true. They built this crappy staircase with very high and messed up stairs and they hade the prisoners carry big rocks up and down the staircase, shooting those that tripped. Horrible.
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Ernst Rohm, who was one of Hitler's original Right hand Men and later leader of the SA Troops was Gay. Allegedly Hitler know it but ignored it for as long as possible because Rohm was very useful to him in helping him to gain Power. Rohm was eventually executed though I understand that it was more for that he was accused of being involved in a plot to Assassinate Hitler than his Sexuality,
"No, Roehm was in charge of the SA, the Brownshirts, and they were being sidelined in favour of the SS. Hitler killed the SA leadership in the Night of the Long Knives quite soon after coming to power. He certainly used Roehm's sexuality as an excuse afterwards. Assassination plots came later."
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The opening scene "the party" takes place "The night of the long knives" which is why the blonde boy in the SA brown shirt is killed the next morning.
Also, it is not historical fact that gays were treated worst than others. However they were still persecuted, even after surviving camps, in France until 1981 and Germany until 1994!
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The original poster was asking if there were many out homosexuals - an important distinction. The first gay man to come out and call for gay rights was German, his name was Lar; Ulrichs and he did it by 1868 http://www.gayhistory.com/rev2/factfiles/ffulrichs.htm
There was a thriving out gay scene in pre-Hitler Germany, (see Cabaret) but one of the Fuhrer's first acts was to suppress it. The main persecutor, though, was Himmler.
The Catholic church certainly did not invent the term homosexuality. It was invented in 1869 by Karl-Maria Kertbeny (before "heterosexuality" which at first meant what we call bisexuality)
They wish
to cure us
but I say
we are the cure
and more at www.cafepress.com/wero
Homosexuality would have appeared not long after the first hominoids did from incorrect gene replication creating defective genes that would have been passed down into the population. Same as colour blindness, etc. As for the Catholic Church making it a sin, it was long before that that homosexuality was deemed as sinful by most of ancient civilisation, even the Greeks on the whole were against it which goes against the popular myth.
Before any militant attacks me for being homophobic, I'm not. Just don't like propaganda from any side that distorts facts.
the Liza Minelli movie from the 80's. It actually portrays a lot more of the bohemian culture in Berlin than Bent and gives a better backgound to the oppression. Another movie worth finding is Visconti's The Damned.
In Amsterdam there is a 'homo monument' composed of three triangular slabs of pink granite. It is there to remember the homosexuals murdered in the concentration camps.
>>>"the Liza Minelli movie from the 80's."
Just to clarify, the classic film Cabaret came out in 1972. That movie and its stage-source were loosely based on "The Berlin Stories", by Christopher Isherwood. His autobiography, "Christopher and His Kind", also covers his stay in pre-war Berlin and gives real-life background to the characters and situations in those stories. I'd also recommend viewing the German classic film, The Blue Angel, for another view of that era. (In fact, director Bob Fosse gave that film and its star, Marlene Dietrich, an appreciative node when he had Minnelli on stage, singing and dancing on a chair, in Cabaret.)
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Take a look at this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Gays_during_the_Holocaust
And the offical German goverment's memorial site:
http://www.gedenkort.de/eng-start.htm
""Take a look at this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Gays_during_the_Holocaust
And the offical German goverment's memorial site:
http://www.gedenkort.de/eng-start.htm "
Thank you so much for including these links! I knew of the Dutch memorial but not the German memorial.
Paul