Age differences.


I think Mr. Knightley is too old for Emma, because she's 21 and he's 37. 16 years older than she is! "I was 16 years old when you were born."

reply

possibly, but that is the age difference in the book. perhaps it wasn't uncommon at the time....

reply

Age difference like that was not uncommon at that time. I haven't read the book in awhile, but I believe Anne Weston was 37 when she married Mr. Weston. If Frank Churchill was 23, there must have been at least a 10 year age difference between them. I don't know why society today makes us think that a large age difference is improper. My grandparents were born in 1916 and 1929, and they were happily married for over 50 years.

reply

Actually age differnce was kind of big back then but i guess Emma didn't care because she loved Knightley. If you've read Sense and Sensibility also by Jane Austen, Marianne, who's 17-ish, and her sister Margaret, 14, say that Colonel Brandon, 37 or something like it (can't remember exactly), a is too old to marry because he's old enough to be her father.

reply

It was all up to the preference of the individual person. It was perfectly *acceptable* but yeah, their own choice. It wasn't uncommon at all for a husband to be 10 years older than his wife. men were considered to be at a good age to marry anywhere between 25-35, women anywhere between 16-22.

Don't Drop the Wood! It's part of my name!

reply

The age difference is indeed big. Mr. Knightley said to Emma in the movie when she was holding her sister's baby daughter, "I remember holding you like this when you were only three weeks old". How creepy is that!

reply

[deleted]

"I remember holding you like this when you were only three weeks old". How creepy is that!"

Not creepy at all. At the time he would have only been 16 yrs old, just a boy essentially.

my god its full of stars

reply

I believe Marianne was 17 and Brandon was 35 when she said that. Of course the irony is that two years later, when she's 19 and Brandon's 37, they get married

I don't mind age differences at all. I don't think age matters when you truly love someone. Jane Austen seemed to agree. Anyways, I cheered when Marianne and Colonel Brandon got married, and when Emma and Mr. Knightly did. And you know they lived happily ever after :)

I don't care about money. I just want to be wonderful. - Marilyn Monroe

reply

[deleted]

@ gitacheetah re: S&S - Marianne was 17 and Brandon was 35 when they first met, and they got married two years later, although she did object in the beginning to the age difference it is true. But she was seventeen then. Between seventeen and twentyone (Emma's age) you can change your mind about a lot of things.

reply

No, that age difference would not have been considered too large back then. If you finish Sense and Sensibility, you will remember that Marianne marries Colonel Brandon. Although she and her younger sister initially thought the age difference too great, no one else did. Not her older sister, not her mother, not Mrs. Jennings, not Colonel Brandon and ultimately -- not her. The age difference is no problem at all.

reply

Not uncommon at that time... it's not uncommon now, look at Demi Moore and Ashton Kutscher.

reply

"Not uncommon at that time... it's not uncommon now, look at Demi Moore and Ashton Kutscher."

Hmmmm, and now we know how well that worked. :)

reply

Warren Beatty and Annette Benning (21 year gap, married since 1992)
Harrison Ford and Calista Flockheart (22 yr gap, dating since 2002)
Michael Douglas and Catherine Zeta-Jones (25 year gap, dating since 1999)

reply

I think the age difference in the book explains why Emma and Knightley only belatedly think of each other in a romantic way.

reply

Since the eldest son usually inherits the estate, they don't marry until this has happened. Consequently, they are usually older when they take a wife. Women back then were out of marriage ability by the time they reached 26. That was considered an old maid. It was perfectly acceptable for Mr Knightly to be so much older than Emma.

reply

You're right that older sons waited till they had inherited before marrying, but the average marrying age for older sons was usually 26-28 (which means their parents/fathers were probably dying in their mid to late 50s). It was the younger sons who had to work for a living and who weren't inheriting that waited much longer to marry. They usually didn't marry until about the age of 36.

...once more in this scene of dissipation and vice, and I begin already to find my morals corrupted.

reply

Also, I wonder if they knew in Regency times - as we are able to understand now - that a man can become a father at any age. Unlike women (I am guessing that then, as now, a woman would reach the menopause at somewhere between 45-55 - I had an ancestor born in 1802 who had her first child in 1821 and her last in 1845, so I'm guessing either her health prevented any more offspring or she was becoming menopausal) there is no cut-off date for being capable of fathering a child.

Take Colonel Brandon and Marianne in Sense and Sensibility (although Knightley and Emma are just as good, they have about the same age gap) - it is possible that Emma and Marianne produced children from the time of their marriage (aged about 22 and 19 respectively) until their early forties. Brandon and Knightley were probably still capable of fathering children in their late 50s or even early 60s.

As you say, Unwanted_Birdtamer, younger sons had to wait longer to see marriage as a realistic option because they had to make their own money and way in life, and no self-respecting parent would want to marry their daughter to a man who didn't have the means to support her.

"If we go on like this, you're going to turn into an Alsatian again."

reply

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, I wonder if they knew in Regency times - as we are able to understand now - that a man can become a father at any age. Unlike women (I am guessing that then, as now, a woman would reach the menopause at somewhere between 45-55 - I had an ancestor born in 1802 who had her first child in 1821 and her last in 1845, so I'm guessing either her health prevented any more offspring or she was becoming menopausal) there is no cut-off date for being capable of fathering a child.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ugh- old wives' tale that needs to be put to rest. There certainly is a strong decline in the quality of sp--m a man produces as he ages. I worked in the infertility field for six years. The industry does not normally accept any
sp--m donors over the age of thirty. And in fact, when infertility is diagnosed in a couple, the male is responsible 45% of the time, the female 45% of the time, and unknown causes the remaining 10%. It is actually as unusual for a male over the age of 45 to conceive without medical assistance as it is for a female. Note here I say unusual, not impossible.

There may be other factors as to why Emma and Marianne married such older men (certainly for monetary reasons on Marianne's part), but both of them could have easily encountered conception problems with their older mates.

reply

A little off thread, I know, but why do you think Marianne Dashwood married Col Brandon for money?

You pierce my soul. I am half agony, half hope

reply

I assume whoever you are responding to thinks Marianne Dashwood married Colonel Brandon for money because he or she didn't read the book.

reply

Bit late getting back to you, but I have seen it stated in several history books that women did go through menopause earlier back then, as well as starting menarche later--I believe 40 to 45 was the average age for menopause then. It's really only been in the last century and a half (coiniciding with the industrial revolution) that women's menopause and menarche started moving to the ages they are today.

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.

reply

Women were NOT "out of the marriage ability" by the time they reached 26. It's true that if you weren't married by the time you were 26, you might start to worry. However, Mrs. Weston (Miss Taylor that was) doesn't marry until she is in her 30s -- and this is the same book we are discussing! Heck, in Persuasion, Anne Eliot is 29 when she marries. Yes, that was considered old for a first marriage for a woman, but it wasn't illegal or impossible.

reply

I think Mr. Knightley is too old for Emma, because she's 21 and he's 37. 16 years older than she is! "I was 16 years old when you were born."

Maybe love in this case just has no boundaries. And as other posters have mentioned basically in this thread, it was perfectly suitable in Jane Austen's time for younger women to marry older men.

ANIMAL LOVERS UNITE

reply

[deleted]

Linda303, in English Common Law girls could marry from the age of 12 (and boys from 14). I think this was only raised to 16 for both sexes in the 1920s. You might be 'creeped out' (and I certainly don't think marrying 12 year olds is the right thing to do) but you need to remember the social and historical context.

reply

[deleted]

This is very funny to me, since I am married to someone 17 years older than myself. Sure, it may cause a stir during the dating/engagement phase of a relationship, but once a couple is married, it really makes very little difference. I've come to realize that age is not always an indicator of maturity, (my husband can be a bigger baby than I ever could! ha!), and a man of near forty and a girl of twenty, if they truly love one another, can have a very strong, very committed relationship. We've been married nine years in December, and all is well, while other friends who married someone closer in age have seemed to encounter greater troubles in dealing with one another.


----------------------------------------------------------------
Gimme a litre o'cola... .

reply

[deleted]

Well...My dad is 79 and my mom is 49...so...
lol. 16 years is better than 30!

yo ho, yo ho...
myspace.com/kimberlyduwe

reply

Think of the age difference as practical, not in terms of morality. Women often died in childbirth in those days (as did Frank Churchill's mother). Therefore, men probably sought younger women as much for their strength to endure such trauma as for their youth.

The older the woman, the more likely complications from childbirth. Times were different and demanded more realistic choices in terms of survival.

reply

Women just didn't have any choices in those days -- they even had to get permission from their fathers as whom to marry. I can't imagine marrying a guy that much older -- yuck! No gray hair or bald geezers for me, and certainly not some dude dependent on viagra!

reply

However, Emma does have a choice; she did not have to get married, and, in fact, her father really doesn't like it when the young women of his household get married and leave!

Emma explains to Harriet Smith that she already has enough consequence (social status), money, and a home to run -- all of the things she would gain from marriage (except love!), so she doesn't intend to marry:

"I do so wonder, Miss Woodhouse, that you should not be married, or going to be married! so charming as you are!"

Emma laughed, and replied,

"My being charming, Harriet, is not quite enough to induce me to marry; I must find other people charming -- one other person at least. And I am not only, not going to be married, at present, but have very little intention of ever marrying at all."

"Ah! so you say; but I cannot believe it."

"I must see somebody very superior to any one I have seen yet, to be tempted; Mr. Elton, you know, (recollecting herself,) is out of the question: and I do not wish to see any such person. I would rather not be tempted. I cannot really change for the better. If I were to marry, I must expect to repent it."

"Dear me! it is so odd to hear a woman talk so!"

"I have none of the usual inducements of women to marry. Were I to fall in love, indeed, it would be a different thing! but I never have been in love; it is not my way, or my nature; and I do not think I ever shall. And, without love, I am sure I should be a fool to change such a situation as mine. Fortune I do not want; employment I do not want; consequence I do not want: I believe few married women are half as much mistress of their husband's house, as I am of Hartfield; and never, never could I expect to be so truly beloved and important; so always first and always right in any man's eyes as I am in my father's."

"But then, to be an old maid at last, like Miss Bates!"

"That is as formidable an image as you could present, Harriet; and if I thought I should ever be like Miss Bates! so silly -- so satisfied -- so smiling -- so prosing -- so undistinguishing and unfastidious -- and so apt to tell every thing relative to every body about me, I would marry to-morrow. But between us, I am convinced there never can be any likeness, except in being unmarried."

"But still, you will be an old maid -- and that's so dreadful!"

"Never mind, Harriet, I shall not be a poor old maid; and it is poverty only which makes celibacy contemptible to a generous public! A single woman, with a very narrow income, must be a ridiculous, disagreeable, old maid! the proper sport of boys and girls; but a single woman, of good fortune, is always respectable, and may be as sensible and pleasant as anybody else. And the distinction is not quite so much against the candour and common sense of the world as appears at first; for a very narrow income has a tendency to contract the mind, and sour the temper. Those who can barely live, and who live perforce in a very small, and generally very inferior, society, may well be illiberal and cross. This does not apply, however, to Miss Bates; she is only too good natured and too silly to suit me; but, in general, she is very much to the taste of everybody, though single and though poor. Poverty certainly has not contracted her mind: I really believe, if she had only a shilling in the world, she would be very likely to give away sixpence of it; and nobody is afraid of her: that is a great charm" (ch. 10).

reply

Really? And almost seven years on from your post...do you still honestly think men in their thirties are all gray-haired or bald and dependent on Viagra? Mr Knightley is 37, not 73.

reply

Frank Churchill's mother did not die in childbirth.

[Frank's mother and Mr. Weston's first wife] died after a three years' marriage, he was rather a poorer man than at first, and with a child to maintain. From the expense of the child, however, he was soon relieved. The boy had, with the additional softening claim of a lingering illness of his mother's, been the means of a sort of reconciliation....


Whatever she died of -- it was not in childbirth. It was a lingering illness

reply

It certainly is a wide margin, but not so bad as in Jane Eyre, where she is 19 and Mr. Rochester is 43.

reply

I realize this was posted a while ago, but... what? In Jane Eyre, when Jane and Rochester met she was eighteen years old and he was somewhere in his mid thirties (the general estimate I have seen used is thirty-five). Then, if you want to get technical, they're both a year or two older when they finally marry.

Were you a little confused by the tendancy of Jane Eyre adaptations to use men in their forties to fill Rochester's role? That's a weird sort of trend in casting, and isn't a reflection of the source material. The most accurately aged Mr. Rochester (in looks anyway, I cannot for the life of me remember his actual age) is the latest one from the excellent 2006 adaptation, Toby Stephens.

reply