I Thought this was a Comedy


The superb acting by the always-talented cast could only take this movie so far. After an irritating and utterly pointless prologue (not Shakespeare) I became aware that this movie is dreary, joyless, and gloomy. There is no joy or comedy in any scene, Ben Kingly is wasted as the clown, playing every scene as if he is being led to his death. This movie bears little resemblance to a comedy. I am currently in this play, as Sebastian, and I know it has its dark and serious moments, but really, it seems like Trevor Nunn wanted to direct Macbeth or Titus Andronicus instead.

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It's a shame you didn't enjoy the film. I thought it was brilliant!!! I found the scene where they have the duel especially funny, never thought one could laugh so much at shakespeare!!!

Oh well, i suppose we all have our different opinions, i'm just sorry you didn't enjoy it. Good luck in you play - is it hard playing a shakespearian character?

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Is it hard playing a Shakespearean character? No more so than any other. Of course learning the lines is harder but speaking them is often easier and more enjoyable. The hard part is trying to keep the performance fresh and interesting after so many other actors have usually done it in the past.
And honestly, did you think Ben Kingsly worked as the clown?

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To be honest, never even knew the story before seeing the film, but from studying the original play since, yes i do, Ok so i am biased, but i think he makes the role both humouress but also darker at the same time, sort of symbolising the fine balance the film produces between joy/happy endings etc and tradegy and loneliness.

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I think it really depends on the type of comedy you like. I love The Twelfth Night, and think it's one of the funniest things I've ever seen. But playing Sebastian doesn't really lend itself to the comedic parts, I don't think.
I also thought the movie was funny, and Ben Kingsley did an excellent job at portraying Feste.

Though, The Twelfth Night is sometimes considered more of one of Shakespeare's "Problem Plays" than a straight forward comedy... so you're not really too far of the point. Seemed that Trevor Nunn focused more on that aspect of the play than the comedy. I still loved it.

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You are all very polite but you seem to only be responding to my posts with denial rather than further insight or review. I made a few points about why I thought the movie didn't live up to the play and you simply respond by saying "I thought it was good". It would be helpful if you responded to my specific criticisms.

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Well, OK, let's answer all your objections because of course you have valid points to make based on your own view of the play.

I think it's pretty well known that movies can't often depict books or stage plays precisely - unless they are selling the movie as a recording of a stage performance. For Twelfth Night in the latter format, you only have to go to the Beeb's complete set of Shakespeare - which I find far less enjoyable than this later version. This movie doesn't pretend to be a stage production video'd for a DVD. I think it's wasting the medium of film to just copy what stage does although I usually would agree the less changes from the original the better so long as the result works in the chosen medium. As to whether this is supposed to be a barrel of laughs, see my other post about the word comedy which I'm sure you as an actor know originated as meaning a play, not a barrel of laughs in particular.

Setting the scenes in Twelfth Night weather makes sense since one of the play's first productions (not the actual first, I think, but perhaps the second?) was on Twelfth Night - the weather could be cold and dreary and if Illyria is as I imagine in the Eastern Med, we know from many old stories and our own experiences how wild it can be there in winter. The play continues for about three months - all in winter. We can't expect beautiful sunny skies and why should a play with such serious themes be bright and pretty? I agree I would have preferred the prologue to be more true to the original, but in a movie I think it makes more sense to start with the shipwreck and explain it to those viewers who've never seen the play even if in different words, rather than with the Duke's famous words about the food of love.

Joyless and gloomy? Most of the themes are pretty joyless - or they are frustrated people trying to make merry. The Duke is miserable and frustrated and lonely amongst his courtiers until he finds that probably longed-for confidante in Cesario. He becomes anxious about his feelings for Cesario so even more frustrated over Olivia's rejection since it affects his confidence in himself - marrying her could give him the best of both worlds, ie a wife and vital heirs for his Dukedom - plus his "boy". Of course he's joyless along with what seems a rather melancholy disposition anyway. Sebastian is a young man in a hostile country, having to make his way somehow - probably little money, no friends to confide in or ask for help except Antonio yet he feels unable to accept Antonio's offer to be his servant. Antonio is effectively on the run in hostile territory yet devoted to Sebastian and distraught at their parting so ends up arrested. no fun as I imagine he'd face execution. Olivia is miserable over the loss of both father and brother and talking of being in mourning for yonks - and it's not just the personal sadness but having to run the household and make decisions for the future such as marriage yet not wanting the Duke, then she falls for a boy who doesn't want her. Sir Toby is dependent on his neice and would prefer it to be the other way around so he'd have control of the finances, and he needs to keep useful Maria sweet whilst avoiding her advances - for one thing, he probably can't afford a wife if he wants to spend what allowance he has on drinking with his mates etc. Maria is frustrated Sir Toby won't marry her. Sir Andrew is a well-meaning twerp but frustrated over Olivia's lack of interest. Malvolio is a pompous misery all the time and puts backs up by interfering in the amusements of others, and moons about Olivia, eventually being tricked and cheated and debased before everyone. Viola is distraught at her brother's seeming death and then distraught at being unable to see how she can win the love of Orsino, fearful of telling him her true identity as Illyria is at war with her country and the Duke would probably, she thinks, be furious at her subterfuge and send her away for ever. As things get more and more complicated, the mood hardly lightens. The only serious fun in this story is the efforts Sir Toby and his friends make to get drunk and then be cheerful for a bit. As for the Clown, don't we always get told that "funny" people can be extremely sad people - take Hancock. We know any Clown in such plays will be more than just a fool capering about trying to make people laugh. Shakespeare's Clowns I expect to be serious, clever people - acerbic, witty (wit is cruel) and informative to the audience, and he may know Cesario is a woman even if he didn't as in this movie see her on the shore after the shipwreck and later recognise her. He clearly has concerns for her - is she safe in Orsino's all male-household? What will happen to her if Orsino finds out the truth and decides to send her away or even imprison her as an undesirable alien?

I don't see anything much in this to make Twelfth Night a riproaring laugh a minute! It's full of deep emotional relationships, all in a state of extreme frustration. Shakespeare's text as we have it in books or hearsay is "the words". It doesn't give us extensive directions re how the characters are to look at each other or move about the stage. Shakespeare leaves the play's director and actors to make their own interpretations. And that's what Nunn has done.

The finale is wonderfully happy for some, but not for all. Feste has to leave because he's implicated in the cruel trick on Malvolio and his justification is fair enough but nonetheless he has offended Olivia who up to then was clearly fond of him. Feste is an old man for those days - how will he survive? Antonio has to go away from Sebastian - OK the Duke has let him free but I doubt would countenance him staying in Illyria. Sir Toby and Maria are in trouble and what's the betting Olivia, who clearly is loyal to Malvolio and probably fond of him too, will reduce or even cancel stupid Toby's allowance as he's not behaved like a gentleman nor Maria like a gentlewoman. Sir Andrew leaves injured, humiliated and unlucky in love. Malvolio is completely gutted and sneereed at by Olivia's staff for getting caught by the trick. The priest is probably happy enough - he's old but his place in heaven is presumably assured.

I presume Shakespeare oversaw the early productions. Does anyone have any evidence of exactly how they were acted? But even then, a director is I think expected to put his own interpretation on a text that doesn't dictate every move, every glance, every voice inflection, every bit of scenery etc.

So I perfectly well accept you didn't like this interpretation - but I don't think you can say or imply the interpretation is specifically wrong. It's just different to what you'd like and shows just how wonderful and versatile everything of Shakespeare is. And of course we'd love to know how your performance turns out and how you see Sebastian and all the rest of them - what about telling us where you see humour whilst Nunn doesn't?

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TN is an elusive comedy, grounded in complex human relationships, and there is a lot of death (and meanspiritedness) in it, for what's meant to be a comedy. I'm currently in a production and one of our audience members complimented us by saying we "remembered it *was* a comedy" which struck me as odd--because I play Viola, and Viola suffers a lot in TN. OTOH, I play the early stages of my crush on Orsino very lightheartedly, almost giddily, as though I'm using the crush to avoid dealing with my grief for my brother. I will agree that the Orsino/Viola relationship in this TN could use a bit more energy--I think Imogen perks up a bit around HBC's Olivia but she seems rather muted in Orsino's presence (which is why Orsino's renunciation of her in the last scene doesn't quite ring true to me--he's supposed to be *furious* with what he thinks is Cesario's betrayal, and it definitely lacks something there, to me).

However I love the beginning--the imagery with the twins in the water, and the sea in the background is gorgeous, and so powerful. There's a strong arc of rebirth with Viola which came out with the prologue. I also enjoyed the Viola/Sir Andrew duel (I loved it when she's trying to pull out her rapier from the apple basket)--however, I thought it was very out of character for her. She has several lines before the duel about how terrified she is, "a little thing would make me tell them how much I lack of a man," how she doesn't want to do it. At the most, she would defend herself, but I don't see her actually attacking SA, as she did in this.

I like Kingsley's take on Feste--even though he's a fool, a clown, he's very different from, say, Touchstone or Bottom. Feste sees things differently--he sees through people and tailors what he says in order to draw them out or put them on the spot. As Viola says "He must observe their mood on whom he jests..." He calls Orsino "a very opal" (true) and is perhaps the only one who sees what Viola really is ("now Jove, in his next commodity, send thee a beard"). His songs are *very* specifically tailored to his audience--he sings about the ephemeral nature of youth to the older characters who are celebrating good times, he sings about death and unrequited love to Viola who has experienced both. Feste is a much more autumnal character (he's older, remember--he's been around since Olivia's father's time) than one expects in a "Clown" and Kingsley embodied that.

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The word comedy actually means a play in the original Greek, if I recall rightly, and for example it's used correctly in France but in England it's happened to come to mean a story full of laughs - or at least smiles. But in Shakespeare's time, I imagine the word comedy had its original meaning.

Twelfth Night *is* a comedy because it's a play that isn't specifically a tragedy and perhaps these days we'd call it a comedy-drama.

The version I've seen a week ago at Stratford is definitely played for laughs. Sir T, Sir A and Fabian acted (very well indeed) by gruff women. Two very short young men very alike, playing the twins. "Viola" looks good in his wig as a woman but sadly bombs as a "boy" because I think Cesario is meant to be very attractive in a rather feminine way whilst this young man is not at all attractive without his wig and girl's clothes and I found this Cesario quite boring. But perhaps that's intended, that we are meant to be completely mystified that stately 30's Olivia fancies him at all let alone the Duke. Rather good ending when Olivia obviously horrified at marrying a boy she's never met before and doesn't seem to like Sebastian after all. Absolutely nothing romantic about any of it, or at least not that I could sense. It's entirely humorous.

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I thought this version was fine. Too often Twelfth Night plays up the comedy to an almost 'hammish' degree, & though that IS how it was likely played originally, just for the 'groundlings', but well done Trevor Nunn & the cast for succeeding in pitching this the way they did.

For a 'hammy' one that also works pretty well, IMHO, see the 1980 BBC TV version http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0081668/

"You're a true vulgarian, aren't you!"

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[deleted]

I don't like the play being hammed but from what I've read, seems likely it might have been in Shakespeare's time? But I suppose it depended on the audience? Perhaps if played at Court in the way I've read suggested Love's Labour's Lost was (ie specially written for Court or similar upper class audience and contains court in-jokes etc), it might have been done quite seriously?

But better it's played at all than not at all?

By the way, I've just learned Love's Labour's Lost will be playing at Stratford next year.....

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As an actor you should know that when Shakespeare says 'comedy' it doesn't mean that it's the biggest laugh in the world. A Shakespearean, and in fact many kinds of, comedy is one that ends happily. And so, yes, this is a comedy, as all of the main characters end up living happily ever after, and no one dies. Even though Malvolio and Sir Andrew end not-so-happily, it's all for the best: Sir Andrew has learnt not to trust Sir Toby, and Malvolio has learnt his lesson.

And I thought Sir Ben Kingsley was really good as Feste. He's not supposed to be a funny clown, but a witty, mysterious clown, and he executed it perfectly.

www.fictionpost.com: Where Writers Unite!

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I know what comedy means. But I laughed much more while reading the play than while watching this movie which dreary and flat.

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If you didn't laugh at the scene when Malvolio was reading "Olivia's" letter, you have no sense of humor. Or the scene when he showed up in yellow stockings and all.

Otherwise it's just malfeasance for malfeasance's sake.

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It is a comedy in the classic sense of comedy, that is, it has a happy ending with lovers united ... another definition of comedy is tragedy averted.

But you ARE Blanche ... and I AM.

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Shakespeare undermined the comedy a good deal with Feste's dreary songs. Everyone sits down to hear the clown sing, and he gets so grim.

There are some good comedy moments.

1) when Malvolio twists the sun dial. Even God, who presumably controls the sun, has to go by his time. This scene expresses Malvolio's character wonderfully.

2) When Viola starts smoking, and when she takes on the billiard table.

3) The dueling scene is a hoot.

The problem: None of these are Shakespeare.

Toby Belch and Andrew Aguecheek are well played, though they're perhaps a shade too subtle.

The great "yellow stocking" scene between Malvolio and Oliva works. As do the more comic scenes between Oliva and Viola. Helena Bonham Carter plays Olivia as a bit of a nut case . . . but she probably was.

Feste is well-played, but I don't understand what Nunn wants of him. When he was first introduced I thought he was going to be a kind of older, graver Puck.

The whole production has an autumnal atmosphere. Nunn, being a Shakespearean expert, probably is too imbued with "Shakespeare's last great comedy" or something malarky like that and simply forgot to bring out the comedy that's actually in the text.

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The fact is that we don't have any records of how Shakespeare's actors played this text. Even if we did, it wouldn't mandate that we must continue to do so.

The question, I suppose, is what one prefers?

I doubt that Nunn forgot to bring out the comedy that's in the text. I suspect that he was trying simply to create something new, which is sometimes a goal that produces interesting approaches but more often results in oddities like this film.

To me, the real problem with Nunn's making this film in such a non-traditional (if not outright perverse?) interpretation is that the great majority of people who will see it will not know, to begin with, what the traditional approaches have been. A great majority will not know what great fun this play CAN be on the stage or screen!

The best version that I know of on video/DVD is the old one with Alec Guinness as Malvolio, Ralph Richardson as Toby Belch, and Tommy Steele as Feste. Their scenes together are so funny. Unfortunately, both Viola and Sebastian are played by Joan Plowright, so the video is marred a bit by this camera-trick that falls flat, but the hijinks with Toby and Malvolio are hysterically funny.

To address some of the questions raised in the previous messages:

While "comedy" in Shakespeare's age was a play that ends happily, the text of this play IS filled with many laugh-out-loud aspects that moderns don't necessarily "get," so Shakespeare's original productions likely played up much more of the laughable aspects. This is what I meant by the "traditional" readings of the play.

For example, when Malvolio is asked to dress in yellow stockings, cross-gartered, the joke (for Elizabethans) would have been two-fold: yellow was symbolic of the liver (which was thought to be the seat of lust-- hence Malvolio's statement to Olivia that he is "yellow in my legs"); cross-gartering had at one time been fashionable, but by Shakespeare's time it was hopelessly old-fashioned. So, Malvolio is tricked into dressing in an extremely old fashioned and self-mocking manner while smiling and appearing proud and vain. It is a delicious trick upon one who is so terribly arrogant.

Feste's song to the Duke ("Come away, come away, death") is also a mockery of the Duke without the Duke's realizing it. Far from being actually a sad song about death and pain, the lyric would have been recognized by Elizabethans as being ridiculously sappy-- Petrarchanism pushed to the most ludicrous extremes. Not only "I will die for your love" but "I'll die for your love and you won't even be able to find my grave to come there and feel guilty about it." Like cross-gartering, this kind of sappy narcissism was once fashionable in love poetry, but by Shakespeare's time, it was laughable. The Duke seriously asks for it and obviously wants to pay Feste for it when the song is done; Feste's answer, "And pleasure must be paid for, one time or another, sir," is a subtle put-down of the Duke's self-indulgent infatuation with a woman he doesn't even know. He is actually in love with his own ego, which makes him in need of Viola's schooling.

These are only a few examples of reasons that, at least in Shakespeare's time, it would have been a "sparkling" comedy (as many literary critics refer to this play). Granted, Viola believes she has suffered a real grief; however, she goes about getting on with life as optimistically as she can. Olivia puts up a front of grief (saying she will grieve for seven years for her brother's death) but discards her plan the moment she sees a young man she falls for. They are opposite sides of the same coin-- hence the similar spellings of their names.

In Shakespeare's day, comedy not only must end happily but cure society's ills by helping us recognize our own foibles on the stage and laugh at ourselves. Laughter is the curative element in comedy (whereas tears are to be the curative force in tragedy).

I'm not saying that Trevor Nunn isn't within his rights to interpret Twelfth Night darkly, but if you have ever seen this play done with sparkling comedy, you may not be so keen on loving this film. These fabulous actors expend such talent on what seems (at least to me) a film that is melancholy only to be different. Every time I watch it, I keep wishing I could see them redirect their energies.

Twelfth Night has not, in fact, been classed along with Shakespeare's other "problem plays." It is a full-fledged comedy, but with one aspect that differentiates it: the ending refuses what we call "comic closure" when Malvolio refuses to forgive and let himself be grafted back into the social structure. This would be the "normal" pattern of comedy-- the one who was anti-social (the one who refused to laugh, tried to prevent others from laughing, believed in his own superiority, and even insulted many of the others around him) is humiliated in public and given a chance to redeem himself by reforming, asking forgiveness from those he has wronged, and forgiving those who have humiliated him; then the cured anti-social one is grafted back into society. But Malvolio says, "I will be revenged upon the whole pack of you!" which is a stubborn rejection of the spirit of comedy, altogether. It is as if he is a figure from tragedy who refuses to inhabit their comic world. So, the ending *is* a bit incomplete in this way-- though all the other comic ends are tied together at the end (even Maria and Toby marry!).

It has been wondered whether Shakespeare thought that forgiving and asking for forgiveness would simply not ring true for this great character Malvolio that he has created? or did he get to the end of the play and feel that, regardless of all the "strange pairing-off disease that strikes at the ends of comedies," there has to be something that speaks of reality? Or was he tired of writing comedies when he got to the end of this great play? Or, having written Hamlet not long before this play, did he come to finish it and find that comedy no longer fully encapsulated his artistic vision?

The "problem plays" do, in fact, follow Twelfth Night-- in a sesne, it ushers them in. Or, I should say, Malvolio ushers them in.

So, the traditional approach to this play is to say that the ENDING is not comic-- at least in Malvolio's reaction.

But to interpret the entire play with melancholy, sadness, gloom is simply not traditional. It's fine, of course, since Nunn wanted to do something new. And it's fine if you, as a viewer, love it that way.

But for me, it loses something in this version.

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