Orsino and Cesario?


Reading a lot of these reviews, I'm surprised to find some people's references to Orsino's "sexual ambiguity." Does anyone else think this is not only misplaced but absurd? I seriously doubt that Shakespeare, in writing Twelfth Night, had any implications in mind of Orsino's "preferences." It's most definitely obvious throughout that he is absolutely lovesick over Olivia.

In the film, I was at first disconcerted by the scene in which Orsino and "Cesario" find themselves drawn to each other, but then I realized that perhaps by that time, Orsino may just have felt the feminine vibe about her (he did tell her how she was so like a woman after all...). Especially in that setting, he may have become lost in the music and the candlelight and the mood and subconsciously knew he was there with a woman. Cesario, while mostly masculine, is after all, on the whole a lady. Besides, the exchange that followed may have just proved his subconscious was right when Viola practically (and should have) confessed her identity.

Any one else have any thoughts on this?

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Yeah, you're right. People just try to make it something it isn't.

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The love that was felt between Orsino and Cesario was meant to be a little ambiguous as sort of a message a little amusement. The message was that no matter how one tries to disguise oneself, true love is true love and nothing can hide that or lead someone in the other direction, so that no matter what sex Viola was portraying at the moment, Orsino was still in love with her because they are meant for each other. The amusement was for the audience, how funny is it that the man that Viola loves is falling a little for her as a man? And I hate the review that is written on the page for this movie, it's full of opinion and no constructive criticism, plus they got the idea of Shakespeare all wrong. They said that the only way to enjoy Shakespeare nowadays is to read it not see it on the stage or in a movie, and I'm not sure what planet they're from but last time I checked, Twelfth Night and the like were all....PLAYS!!! LIKE FOR THE STAGE!!!! Just because we lack the context and social experiances to fully understand viewing the play doesn't mean that we have to resort to just reading them with our stupid Cliff's Notes, the whole point is to see it on the stage because there is a lot of physical comedy in his comedies and plenty to be had in viewing the play, it changes a lot of the meanings in some instances. Some people's views are so skewed when it comes to Shakespeare.

"The joy is not the same without the pain." ~Badly Drawn Boy

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im studying twelfth night for GCSE and A LEVEL exams. we are using the video as a pose to reading the actual play as this is such a good film it has all the important scenes and dialogue. people criticise the much ado about nothing, love's labours lost and midsummers night dream films too much. they are all stunning, in my humble opinion, and should be left alone. and the points above are exactly my opinion too.

Also going back to what drew said, Orsino, in my opinion, isnt in love with olivia, he's in love with the idea of being in love with olivia. does that make sense? he's in love with being in love.

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Orsino, in my opinion, isnt in love with olivia, he's in love with the idea of being in love with olivia. does that make sense? he's in love with being in love.


I believe that is the consensus opinion of students of Shakespeare.

I've lived upon the edge of chance for 20 years or more...
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Yeah, you're right. People just try to make it something it isn't.

No. This point comes up in virtually every discussion of this play. There's something to the fact that Orisno actually marries Viola in her male disguise. Trevor Nunn elided this thanks to cinema -- but onstage, the two lovers appear as man and boy.


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Please put some dashes above your sig line so I won't think it's part of your dumb post.

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[deleted]

Consider the original context: performance in a country where women were forbidden from taking part in theatrical performance, and all women would be played by boys and young men. The intimation is definitely there, though modern performance can take it whereever it deems prudent.

If you've never seen Shakespeare played with an all male cast, it really is worth seeking out. There are jokes and situations that get a new breath of life in this context, suggesting very strongly that the all-male casting was more than just an obstacle to the playwright. It created some very interesting dynamics that led to greater exploration of gender politics and relationships. There are also a number of all-female companies sprinkled around the world that bring ever more interesting balances out in these classic scenes.

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Excellent point about the original Shakespeare productions being performed entirely by males. IMHO, that is the only context in which this story is workable.

Seriously, am I the only one who found it ludicrous that anyone would think for one second that "Cesario" was male? I know, I know, it's a comedy, but how can you make suggestions about homoerotic subtext between Orsino and Cesario, when the only REAL homoerotic subtext that visually plays out in this film is between the two women?

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So it's Viola and Olivia we have to worry about? Ah, me, you've brought us back to where we came from.

Seriously, though, I don't think Shakespeare would be all that concerned if "Twelfth Night" veers off into "Victor/Victoria" territory, as in, "Just who am I in love with, a man or a woman?" After all, it's all about self-delusion and disguises, isn't it? Order is restored when the disguises are dropped and the relationships are revealed.

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Have you read the original play? I am currently playing Viola in a production of Twelfth Night and have throroughly studied many of Shakespeare's works, including this one. In Shakespeare's time, it was not anything entirely out of the ordinary for men to have relationships. In fact, many young boys, whom were still feminine in boyish respects, were prostitutes. So that makes it entirely appropriate for Shakespeare, who was rumored to be enamoured of a Duke whom he worked for, to write in sexual ambiguity.

Also, the theme of the play is based on true love. The only character that truly experiences true love is Viola. Orsino loves Olivia simply because it was a given characteristic of nobility, and a smart political match. She is also rather attractive and at the appropriate age for marriage. The sea captain in the second scene of Act 1 sets up the absurdity of true love when he discusses with Viola that the Duke's favor is simply the gossip of the last month or so. Olivia falls in love with Cesario after 20 minutes of conversation, rather abrupt for someone who has abjured the company of men for seven years of mourning. Malvolio's crush on Olivia is based on social advancement. Toby marries Maria in exchange for her jest on Malvolio, and I need not explain the baseness of Aguecheek's love for Olivia. Viola is the only one who feels true love for Orsino. Proof of this is the exact event that sets up the comedy. Though she loves the Duke herself, she nonetheless tries to woo Olivia for him. Even after Olivia's proclamations of love for Cesario, Viola feels strongly enough for the Duke that she continues to do his bidding, knowing in her heart that if it were to work, she would have absolutely no chance with Orsino. THAT is true love. Another example of her love comes in Act Five, when the Duke professes "Come boy, my mind is ripe with mischief. I will sacrifice the lamb that I do love, to spite a raven's heart within a dove." Which loosely means that he will put Cesario to death to spite Olivia, whom he knows loves Cesario. But Viola, understanding what he intends to do, replies, "And I, most jocund, apt and willingly, to do you rest, a thousand deaths would die." Or: And I, to make you happy, would die time and time again. This is a proclamation of true love. Each of the other characters think more of themselves than of the people they "love", and would not even think of giving their life for them. Viola, however, would do it in a heartbeat. So this entirely disproves the idea that Orisino is so in love with Olivia that he could never be attracted to an affectionate and rather feminine servant. Not to mention, remember the Duke's line that proclaims his love for Viola, "Cesario, for so you shall be as you are a man until in other habits are seen, now Orsino's mistress, and his Fancy's queen." Orisino KNOWS Viola is a woman, yet still calls her Cesario, her MALE personage. This, above all else, leads us to believe there was indeed a strong attraction between Orsino and Cesario. Also, if Shakespeare didn't want any homoerotic undertones in this work, he probably would not have let Olivia fall in love with Viola. Also, what about Sebastian and Antonio? Antonio is undoubtedly the most up front about his sexuality. While it was intendly left for interpretation, hence it's title What You Will, Antonio acts as either the outright homosexual or as a very dediated friend. "Gentleness of all the Gods be with thee! I have many enemies in Orsino's courts, or else presently I would join thee there. For for my love, danger will seem sport, and I will go!"

So, in overall reply to your topic, while it is entirely up for interpretation, there is more than sufficiant evidence in favor that Shakespeare DID intend for there to be homoerotic undertones.

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Wow, you totally said it all right there. This has long been one of my favourite Shakesperean plays. What I find interesting is the fact, that after the scene where the mutual attraction between Orsino and Cesario becomes apparent, Orsino panics and flies into a fevered-pitch trying to woo Olivia. This I think he is using as a defense mechanism because he's scared of the feelings that are surfacing in him towards whom he THINKS or believes to be a male. He tries to run from true love because of societal standards and uses Olivia as a foil for that, until he realizes its okay to find his true love in Cesario, because Cesario is a woman. Orsino was in love with the idea of being in love, until he found his true love, real love.

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"Uffda!"

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i think you all need to remember, that "love" does not simply mean sexual attraction. i agree that there are possible undertones of homoeroticism, but with regard to the Antonio/Sebastian thing, could it not be that Antonio simply holds a deep friendship for Sebastian? that he loves him in a brotherly way?

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Spot on!

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Lots of levels of sexual ambiguity in the plays and in Shakespeare's time. A lot, however, can be conveyed by stage business, tone of voice, emphasis on different words, however. That is why every production using the same script can be quite different, and every character done at least a little if not a lot differently.

In this production, I thought there was a little more touchy feely going on than would have been in the period productions, and that makes different scenes have different emphasis. It's also truly amazing how much difference tone can make. You could read a scene between two spouses, for example, and not know without hearing their voices whether they were ready to kill each other, or just teasing.

As far as reading the play being superior to seeing it performed, it might help in terms of knowing exactly what the words were, but would also probably make it harder to follow. When actors who understand the characters and the dialog perform the play, the audience can more easily understand what is being said, and what their motivations and attitudes toward each others' characters are.

Semper Contendere Propter Amoram et Formam

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I agree. I'm more of a visual learner, so seeing it played out does make certain points clearer, esp. when there is very little to no stage direction/context when reading it.

As for Antonio and Sebastian, I got more of a bromance vibe while reading it and more of a sexually ambiguous vibe in this version. But to each their own on this subject.

"4 yrs. from now, VA and WV will merge together to form one huge Virginia." -iCarly

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That was a great post, emeralddeath, and it also proves once and again why Shakespeare is the greatest writer of all time.

Shakespeare never explains his characters' motivations. He simply sets his people in motion, and away they go, leaving the audience to endlessly wrestle with the ambiguties of the characters' motivations and actions.

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See, now I have to disagree about why Toby marries Maria. I played Toby a couple years back and found through the text and with a little directorial help that Toby is in love with Maria. Feste says early on, basically, "If Toby would get his crap together he could make an honest woman out of you". Or rather, "If Sir Toby would leave drinking thao wert as pretty a peice of Eve's flesh as in all of Illyria." I think it comes about from him sobering up, Olivia tells him off (slapped me) when he fights Sebastian and he has a sobering moment. He see's Malvolio locked up and it's not fun anymore, another sobering moment. And finally he tells off Andrew in his final act of giving up drinking.
The point I'm trying to make is I think it's Maria not Toby who doesn't want to get married. She's less dillutted than others, and I don't think she would marry him as a drunk. I think he does love her from what we see of thier interaction starting in the first scene with both of them and continuing on, there is a familiarity there that implies love, and a longer lasting love that only comes into fruition when Toby stops being so...Toby, I think she loved him before he was a drunk and when he gives it up at the end she remembers why she loves him and marries him.
Sorry for the rant, gotta defend my Toby

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Weren't relationships between men different back in Shakespeare's day than they are today? I think that perhaps Orsino sensed a feminine vibe from Cesario, but it might have also been that he felt something more than simply a platonic, or distant, friendship. Does that make sense?

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Yes, a fascinating play. I haven't studied it since my early teen schooldays when homoeroticism wasn't mentioned! But have enjoyed some presentations since though never seen one nearly as good as this.

As to Orsino's threat to kill Cesario rather than let Olivia have him and also to hurt Olivia for shaming himself in front of his people and hers by her preferance for just a boy rather than a powerful Duke..... I see this as Orsino desperately seeking some escape from the emotional mess he's in - shamefully as he sees it rejected by Olivia's pretty insulting answer to his latest proposal of marriage, let alone her persistent attempts to speak to Cesario instead of himself which is pretty illmannerd of her. What's the solution to save his face and at the same time punish Olivia's bad manners and do away with his own inconvenient (and sinful) emotions about Cesario? Obviously, kill the object of his love and Olivia's. Drastic measures. He tried a surfiet of music to kill off his unrequited love but he quickly realised that wasn't going to work. Death is pretty final. The only alternative would be to kill himself but of course he won't do that, he isn't the type. He'll hit out at others when hurt himself?

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I totally agree.

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I would imagine it was just a fun device in Shakespeare times, because the men were played by women anyway see quote below

The audience would know that this Man was pretending to be a woman who was pretending to be a man, i would imagine it very much added to the comedy on stage, oh to have been there, maybe at Tithe barn, what an experience !!!



Because women didn't take to the English stage until after the Restoration (1660), all the women in Shakespeare's plays were originally played by young boys or men. Shakespeare had a great deal of fun with this convention. In a production of As You Like It in 1600, a boy would have played Rosalind, who disguises herself as a boy, then pretends to be a woman. Let's review: that's a boy playing a woman disguised as a boy pretending to be a woman. Because we are committed to the idea that Shakespeare is about everyone - male and female - Shenandoah Shakespeare is not an all-male company, but we try to re-create some of the fun of gender confusions by casting women as men and men as women

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[deleted]

good points

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I watched a production at the Globe Theatre in London, using an all-male cast. This scene was particularly poignant but funny as we were so aware of its multi-level reality/disguise. There was the oddity of a man finding himself attracted to a youth, plus we knew the youth was really a young woman, BUT we also knew the young woman was being played by a man. So it was wonderfully awkward, funny, sweet, and romantic all at the same time!
In this film there are really only the two levels, Orsino finds himself attracted in spite of his love for Olivia,to something about this youth, AND we (the audience) know it's okay really since Cesario is really Viola. Plus Viola knows she is a woman and can love Orsino, but she mustn't compromise him while he thinks she is a youth!

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In shakespearien time, what we consider a gay or bisexueal person now would still be pretty much straight in their eyes. This is seen only as one sexual act. For them, a homosexual would mean something compltery different then it does now, so for shakepeare this would be totally normal

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