MovieChat Forums > Sling Blade (1997) Discussion > Did Doyle want to Die? (Spoilers)

Did Doyle want to Die? (Spoilers)

posted 15 years ago by mtbaker-1
41 replies | jump to latest

Throughout the movie we witness Doyle being a prick at the least provocation but in his final scene he seems almost serene when Karl walks in carrying a lawnmower blade and asking about how to call the police. Considering that Doyle was already suspicious of Karl (recall the hammer incident from the night before), do you think Doyle secretly had a death wish? After all, his life was rather crummy: Forty-something man in godawful band raising another man's kid and forced to hang with those he despises: sounds like a recipe for suicidal ideation to me. And the equanimity with which he accepted his own death further solidifies this impression in my own mind.

So what does everyone else think?

[–] Mad_Monkey 15 years ago

Good question...
I don't think he had a deathwish although it's obvious he hated his life.
He was an alcoholic with a low self esteem and to compensate for it, he was an incredible prick.
I think his serene attitude at the end of the movie was because he was so drunk that he was on the verge of passing out.

[–] JoeLoebner 15 years ago

Yes thats true and also when Karl was about to strike him, Doyle called out "Karl".

[–] sweiland75 14 years ago

I thought that was an odd moment. I wonder why he did that.

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[–] rwsmith29456 15 years ago

The idiot Doyle made a point to say that he wasn't afraid of anything or anybody, especially 'retards'. He is so used to cowing people that he doesn't believe Karl would actually do it.

[–] kyrat 15 years ago

I was confused too by what seemed like his acceptance of the death.

He's an aggressive jerk who lashes out at all around him.
He clearly thought Karl was a menace (the hammer incident).

So why on earth when someone holding a HUGE knife says that he's going to kill him - did he make NO MOVE or not scream at all?

That made no sense to me.

[–] Edward_de_Vere 15 years ago

There's nothing to suggest that Doyle was actively suicidal, but you're right that there's a certain streak of self-loathing in his tantrums (especially after his fight with the band members).

Most likely, the reasons for Doyle being so passive before being killed by Karl were A) extreme drunkenness and B) not taking Karl seriously as a threat. In the case of B, we really can't blame a man for not taking a deadpan "I aims to kill you with [the mower blade'" at face value, especially when drunk.

[–] orangewarm 14 years ago

ed i love your carl impression

[–] mloessel 12 years ago

Yes Doyle appeared to be overly passive and unconcerned when Karl makes the comment about killing him. It wasn't a drawn out scene, as some scenes tend to be, but rather Karl did what he had planned to do quickly. I didn't think he'd go through with it but he did and Doyle's abusive ways ended quickly. I like that they didn't show Doyle. Karl's description of what he had done, when he called 911, was enough. I've always been curious about this movie. I've admired Thornton's work as an actor/director. When he takes on a project he becomes his character. I like that Billy Bob doesn't play it safe. His characters tend to have an edge. Even in the remake of 'Bad News Bears' he played Matthau's role with same edgy dark comedy.

[–] baran_erik 8 years ago

I think one of the reasons they didn't show Doyle was they couldn't afford the SFX. This was made for about $900,000 dollars, while it grossed over $24,000,000. Not a bad return.

[–] lanechaffin-1 15 years ago

I watched this movie yesterday, after having seen it several times in the past, and wondered about that too. However, I do not think the character of Doyle had a death wish. I believe he considered Karl 100% harmless (at least to him)and the hammer scene just reinforced Doyle's conviction that Karl was a harmless simpleton, who feared him too much to ever try anything. Karl himself says to Frank "Doyle would just whup the tar out of me".
Doyle knew Karl worked on lawnmowers, so Karl having the blade wasn't great cause for alarm for the drunked up Doyle. I also do not think that Doyle genuinely felt his life was crummy, he considered himself a bigshot construction man and I think the stress he referred to was mostly just a made-up excuse to drink and be an a-hole. At one point Doyle tells Frank and his mom that he just came by to "give them a little dose of sunshine or happiness in their lives"..or something to that effect. Doyle may have been delusional haha.
The scene at the house with his band does kind of lend to the speculation that perhaps all wasn't well with Doyle's mental make-up. Interesting character study.

I also noticed for the first time yesterday that in the final sequence of events before Karl kills Doyle, everyone that Karl talks to says out his name, "Karl..." as Karl leaves with no response. Mrs Wheatley, as she visits with Karl in the yard returning with the fried chicken for Doyle says it, Frank says it as Karl gives him his books and leaves him in the woods, and Vaughan says it when Karl pays him a final visit and tell's him "that boy lives inside of his own heart", and then Doyle's last word was "Karl..". kind of a delayed observation on my part. What does it mean?

Almost all of the characters are interesting. Of course, none moreso than Karl.
When Karl returns to his childhood home, the music and photography is hauntingly captivating. Karl tells his father "I studied on killin you- studied it a good deal" which is interesting because he already has killed his mother and is about to kill Doyle. So, while Karl is basically good, he is bad, too. Something that he is made aware of by Frank, who reminds Karl that the Bible says you will go to hell if you kill. Maybe that is why he decides to go ahead and kill Doyle- since he figures he's already headed to Hades. Maybe that should be more obvious to me. I don't know. Very good movie though. A movie where you could probably connect all the dots in several different ways and still be right.

[–] orangewarm 14 years ago

i dont think Carl is fundamentally bad - i think he's a fundamentally good person who had been put in a bad situation. i think his dad deserved to die and he's have been (morally) justified if he's did it. the killing of his mother i think was wrong but the guy she was ******* was an ****** and used to be mean to him - dont think he deserved to die but i can see how somone could snap after years of torment. but a dad who makes his son sleep in the shed deserves to die in my opinion.

[–] fiatlux-1 13 years ago

the killing of his mother i think was wrong but the guy she was ******* was an ****** and used to be mean to him - dont think he deserved to die but i can see how somone could snap after years of torment. but a dad who makes his son sleep in the shed deserves to die in my opinion.

I agree. But his mom also kept him that shed and made it clear they both did not want him in the house with them.
And all they fed him really were biscuits & mustard, and made him sleep in the ground! Plus, they forced him to bury his brother...alive! They both deserved to die, and the lover sounded like a true ass who likely deserved it too.

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[–] yesimgonnabeastar 15 years ago

I believe Doyle was very drunk at the time and therefore sedated and calm. Also, up until the moment, I don't believe he EVER expected Karl to actually do it, but just stand there like he did before with the hammer. After all, Karl had never done anything before other than warn Doyle not to touch Frankie, which provoked a verbal attack by Doyle that kept Karl quiet and Doyle satisfied that he had the "retard" under his thumb. The rising of his voice in a questioning/warning way before Karl hits him tells me that Doyle, at the last moment, knew something was going to happen to him.

Either way, Billy Bob Thornton and Dwight Yoakam did an EXCELLENT job in that scene.

[–] turkeyprophet 14 years ago

A nice point but could you perhaps not put spoilers in the subject title? Just because you put (spoiler) after telling the ending doesn't mean you've somehow not spoiled the film!

[–] taknocks 14 years ago

A nice point but could you perhaps not put spoilers in the subject title? Just because you put (spoiler) after telling the ending doesn't mean you've somehow not spoiled the film!

Seriously, I don't get why that's such a hard concept for people to grasp. It happens on every board.

[–] scottythefield 13 years ago

A nice point but could you perhaps not put spoilers in the subject title? Just because you put (spoiler) after telling the ending doesn't mean you've somehow not spoiled the film!

But he didn't reveal the ending, not really. The only thing the thread title definitively reveals is that there's a character named Doyle who may or may not have wanted to die. If I started a thread called "Did Karl Want To Die?", would you automatically assume that a character named Karl died in the end? If so, then you'd be WRONG, obviously! My thread was only about Karl's confession to Frank about his occasional suicidal thoughts.

[–] kbarada 13 years ago

Please tell me why the worry about "spoilers" on the message boards. How can you discuss a film fully and be constantly worried about spoiling something for someone. All discussions here are usually in the context of the entire movie, including the ending.

How many folks that have not seen these movies actually comb through the message boards? Very few I think. If they do, they soon learn that this is not the place to be if they don't want their movie experience "spoiled". Also, how could anyone possibly get anything out of these boards from discussions of those that have actually seen the movies? They should stick to the reviews and trailers and not discussion boards. Here they risk the so called "spoilage" of their movie watching experience.

[–] jillybean2765 14 years ago

He did not want to die. He was drunk with slow thought processes and reflexes.

[–] hodie 14 years ago

I agree with Jillybean. He was dead drunk (no pun intended).

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[–] lizi44 14 years ago

I watch this movie every time it comes on. It never ceases to fascinate me. And I just watched the "Director's Cut" for the first time last night.

I don't think Doyle ever knew why Karl was in the 'nervous hospital'. Karl himself told Frank and then later told Linda. Frank lied when Doyle asked him if he knew. So I think it's safe to assume that Doyle didn't know, and that might at least partly explain Doyle's reaction (or non-reaction) to his impending death.

[–] lefecious 14 years ago

Yes, I believe Doyle wanted to die. Maybe not on a conscious level, like he never had suicidal thoughts or anything, but he took incredible risks by driving while severely drunk and acting like a dick to the band members, some of whom were much bigger than Doyle and probably could've kicked his ass.

That kind of behavior is what you see from a man who has nothing to lose.

And as far as Karl goes, to me it seems like a Jesus on the cross thing. Karl sacrificed himself so that everyone in the movie could find peace, including Doyle.

[–] Edward_de_Vere 14 years ago

Yes, I believe Doyle wanted to die. Maybe not on a conscious level, like he never had suicidal thoughts or anything, but he took incredible risks by driving while severely drunk and acting like a dick to the band members, some of whom were much bigger than Doyle and probably could've kicked his ass.

The scene in the movie that irritated me the most was when Doyle slammed the guy in the wheelchair against the door. Coward that he is, he wouldn't dare touch anybody who could fight back, but I couldn't believe that none of the other band members would stand up to Doyle when he did that. The band member with the beard looked like he could have easily broken Doyle in half, but acted like he was afraid of Doyle.

But going back to your point, people who engage in risky behavior don't necessarily have a subconscious death wish. More typically, they just come to believe that they're indestructable and that their good luck will never run out. For Doyle, it ran out when Karl saw him threaten Frankie.

And as far as Karl goes, to me it seems like a Jesus on the cross thing. Karl sacrificed himself so that everyone in the movie could find peace, including Doyle.

There are many references to Karl as a Christ figure - he owns a book on carpentry and A Christmas Carol, he goes to be Baptised, and finally sacrifices his own life (in the sense of giving up his freedom) in order to save others.

[–] janeofthewakinguniverse 13 years ago

Yes, that scene where he slammed the guy in the wheelchair against the door pissed me off, too. I couldn't believe no one stood up for that poor guy either. The dude with the beard (who was also in Tim the Tool Man Taylor's band on Home Improvement, I believe! LOL) could've taken him apart for sure. Why do you think that was? That they all acted afraid of Doyle or whatever? Of course, he repeatedly treated them like crap and they still hung out with him, which doesn't say much for them, I guess. "That's how friends do one another." What an asswipe!

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