MovieChat Forums > The Rock (1996) Discussion > Shane Black said that this movie is dogs...

Shane Black said that this movie is dogsh#t


Shane Black compared this movie to dogsh#t, and he said that he feels embarrassed when people tell him that they like his work while also being a fans of Michael Bay's films. Me personally, I don't care for that, since I don't even remember finishing watching this movie. But what is funny though, is that such statement comes from someone who directed Iron Man 3, which Shane Black considers to be an uber-artful masterpiece that was just too clever for people to understand. Iron Man 3 definitely wasn't too far away from movies that Michael Bay makes. A generic action blockbuster with hackneyed story and tasteless humor.

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Never heard of this guy and I couldn't care less what films he likes or dislikes..

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I love The Nice Guys and Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang, but sometimes Shane Black says stuff like this and I have to disagree. I don't say The Rock is a masterpiece, but it's a good entertainment. It's a brain-off popcorn movie, and that's fine. He doesn't like Skyfall, either, and that's a great movie.

Now, to everybody saying, "Oh, yeah, well he made Predator/Iron Man 3," that's fair enough, but not being able to do something doesn't mean you can't criticise. If you're shopping for a chair and you reject one that's tilted and rickety, the last thing you want to hear is the salesman say, "Oh, yeah, well let's see you make a chair before you start ripping on that one."

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I do think of the The Rock as a masterpiece within its genre. It's a genuinely great action film. It's a shame that Bay couldn't keep up this level of quality all throughout his career.

As for Shane Black, his resume is pretty checkered, but he did write The Long Kiss Goodnight, which is highly underrated and deserves more credit than it's gotten. So that earns him some goodwill in my book. He's fucking wrong about The Rock, though.

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Yeah, I agree. I wouldn't say "masterpiece," with the Rock (although your qualifier of "within its genre," makes that assertion more reasonable to my mind), but it's a great, fun movie. Plus, it's quotable! "Losers whine about their best..."

I disagree with Shane. I really like Shane's writing, and of the three films I've seen, I only have a "shrug" for Iron Man 3, which probably was hurt at least a little bit by Marvel Meddling from corporate execs. However, although I really like his writing, I often find myself disagreeing with his taste in films. Maybe his perfectionist disinclination towards enjoying films like The Rock and Skyfall are what makes him a great writer. If he wouldn't be satisfied with those movies, no wonder he can crank great material like Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang.

I'll check out The Long Kiss Goodnight on your recommendation.

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I still remember watching The Rock in the theater. I wasn't really interested but my dad wanted to see it and I went along. I loved it and have watched it several times since then. It's a great story in a unique setting that is well-told. Also, the cast is excellent and the score is superb. For me, it's probably a Top 10 action film. It also ignited my love for Nicolas Cage.

Of all the movies that Shane Black has been involved with, whether as writer or director, the only one I have a strong love for is The Long Kiss Goodnight. (Yes, go watch it!)

I saw Kiss Kiss Bang Bang in the theater but barely remember the film. I remember thinking it was just okay, so I have been puzzled by some of the very positive opinions that I've encountered since then. Maybe I should give the film another chance and watch it again.

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I didn't wind up watching The Rock until it was out on home media, and me and some buddies watched it. It became an oft-quoted piece of cinema. It's got good action, good lines, and good performances; and, yes, the setting is neat, too. I like the theory that Connery's character is actually James Bond. I think it's a cool potential chapter in the epic adventures of 007 (nevermind continuity, that stuff never stopped Bond, James Bond from being mid-thirties to fifties since 1962).

Nic Cage is awesome. My favourite performance he's ever done is (to date) Adaptation, but I always respect that dude for taking 100% risks in basically every movie he's ever done. I still haven't seen a lot of his latest wave; there's a great Nic Cage renaissance going on right now and I've got Pig and The Unbearable Weight of Massive Talent on my list. Color Out of Space is a great existential/cosmic horror film (I always describe it as "upsetting"). Did you see Willy's Wonderland? It's surreal. Super-fun. If you read the premise, you'll know whether you want to watch it or not. It feels really fresh and original until about half-way through and it loses a bit of its originality, but it's still wildly entertaining in all of the most baffling Cagey ways. Cage doesn't talk in it, though, so don't expect his line delivery.

I'll bump Long Kiss Goodnight up the list (which is long) and see if I can't get to it in the next couple of days.

I'm equally puzzled that you didn't love Kiss Kiss Bang Bang. I'd definitely encourage a second viewing, or for you to check out The Nice Guys if you haven't already. KKBB is, in my opinion, something like a Simon Pegg, Nick Frost, and Edgar Wright Cornetto Trilogy-type film for film noir: it's making fun of noir and pulp, but it's also being a perfect version of it - just like Shaun of the Dead is both a spoof and a perfect incarnation of a zombie film.

Anyway, if it's not quite your cup o' tea, that's groovy, but I just hold it in such high regard.

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I actually just watched a video on the James Bond theory the other day. I presume you also have seen the same one. It's amazing how plausible and detailed it all turns out to be.

As for Nic, The Rock was really the movie where he got my attention, and when he followed it up the very next year with Face/Off I was totally sold on him. I would have to think regarding what I think his best performance is, though he is great in Adaptation, which was undoubtedly a very challenging role. Even in bad movies he is always watchable, and he clearly has a strong commitment to his craft.

Regarding his more recent films, I saw Pig and thought it was pretty good. The Unbearable Weight of Massive Talent was fun, but I think with more money and some more work on the script it could've been even better. I saw Willy's Wonderland as well and enjoyed it.

I also saw Color Out of Space and thought it was pretty good, though Cage's performance there occasionally became a little TOO goofy and he almost seemed like he was in a different film. I agree with you that it was strange and "upsetting." I don't know if you're aware of the director's journey, but he has an interesting history in the industry. Just go watch "Lost Soul: The Doomed Journey of Richard Stanley's Island of Dr. Moreau" for more about him.

The recent film of Cage's that a lot of people have talked about that I HAVEN'T seen is Mandy. Need to check that out.

You should check out The Long Kiss Goodnight for sure. It is even seasonal, as Shane Black set it during Christmas, as he likes to do. If you're able to give it a look over the next few days, you should post some thoughts on the film's board. I'll keep an eye out over the next few days to see if you do.

I will make a point to rewatch Kiss Kiss Bang Bang. I know I started The Nice Guys once and then didn't finish it. I'll give that one another shot as well.

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I don't know which Bond video you're talking about. I've seen a few theory videos, commentaries, "takes," and documentaries on Britain's coolest secret agent, so I'd need it narrowed down. Is this a more recent one?

If it's the "Codename: James Bond" theory, where the actors are portraying different agents, I've never liked that one. For me, Bond just "is". He's like Batman or Superman, who have been modern-day, thirtysomething crime-fighters since the '30s. They just reinvent, fudge some backstory numbers, and keep on truckin'. Bond is the same way. He's mythological. He's primal. He's Bond, James Bond, and he just is.

100% agreement: Nic Cage is always watchable, even when he's bad. I think it's because he takes risks. It's more interesting (and entertaining) to watch somebody put in a lot of effort and really try than to watch somebody play it safe.

I know what you mean about his performance in Color Out of Space; as the film goes on, he does get a bit goofy and out-of-place, but the film as a whole is something else. I'll look up the documentary and Mandy.

I'll try to post something about The Long Kiss Goodnight when I watch it. If I remember, I'll swing back here to let you know.

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The Bond/Rock video I'm referring to is this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FdnevXjqdc

Genuinely good stuff, even though the presentation needs a bit of work. (Get rid of the penguin!)

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I wrote up a little thing over on the Long Kiss Goodnight boards:

https://moviechat.org/tt0116908/The-Long-Kiss-Goodnight/63abd9350bd6716588d83028/Great-Mixup-Movie-SPOILERS

Even remembered to come back here and tell you.

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Good man! Good man. I really appreciate that.

I took a look at your write-up. I'm on the road for Christmas and I want to rewatch the film before I respond, so I will do that as soon as I get home and and will reply to your post.

For now, I'll just say that I'm glad you watched it and enjoyed it!

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I try to follow up on stuff like this. It's not like took a vow to watch the film and get back to you, but I did say I'd try. The timing was accidental, too; I should have known Shane Black wrote a "Christmas" movie, but I didn't think about that at all when I watched it around the holiday.

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To me, it's like Die Hard: It is NOT a "Christmas movie," but it makes sense to watch it during the Christmas season. Glad you watched and enjoyed it, and even did so at the right time of the year.

I put it on my calendar to rewatch TLKG on New Years Eve, so like I mentioned, I will give it another go and chime in on your thread with some thoughts.

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Yeah, I agree. I've heard the arguments "for," but Die Hard ain't a Christmas movie. Just 'cause it's set at a Christmas party doesn't make it Christmassy (even with the whole, "John has to reunite his family," thing)

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

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PS
I did finally watch that Bond/Rock video, and it's a great deep dive into those films. I like it. I really like that he ignored the "James Bond is a code name," theory, too. If he subscribed to that, I might have switched him right off. It is fun to imagine that Bond's "true" ending happens in (or shortly after, anyway) The Rock.

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Yeah, I thought that was really cool. The info was great. The dude who created the video did a really deep dive on the films and was clearly meticulous in his research.

Similar to the "demon theory" for M. Night Shayamalan's Signs, the idea makes you watch The Rock in a whole new way.

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I've seen other stuff by the penguin video guy, and I've liked his other stuff; I can't recall exactly which ones I've seen, but he's good. Yeah, he did a deep dive on everything, and it's nice seeing a video with a lot of effort involved.

The demon theory is cool for Signs, too, although I've considered the aliens/demons to be largely irrelevant to the good stuff of the movie, which is just about a guy wrestling with faith and his connection to God. He's cut himself off from hope and love, and his family needs him to snap out of it. It's about people reconnecting with things bigger than themselves, and the aliens (or monsters or demons) are just the movie's catalyst for change in Mel Gibson's life (and to some extent Joaquin Phoenix). While I recognize the plot holes and problems with the film, I still enjoy Signs. Shayamalan is an "uneven" filmmaker, but Signs is okay. Unbreakable is my favourite of his works, though.

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What is interesting to me about the demon theory is that it turns Signs into a story about full-on spiritual warfare: It's the forces of light against the forces of darkness and Mel's character is the battleground. He has to battle against Satan's minions, quite literally, in his wrestling with God and struggle to regain his faith.

When I first heard of the demon theory I was like "oh, shit," because it seemed shockingly plausible. Is it what M. Night secretly intended? There's no way to know, unless he comments on it. But you can build a strong case that that's what's going on there from circumstantial evidence.

Demon theory or not though, I would say that Signs is more than just "okay." I think it's a really good film. It's probably my second favorite movie of his. You'd probably be surprised to learn that my favorite is The Village. (Unbreakable and The Sixth Sense are both really good as well, though.)

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I did some digging, but I didn't find anything direct from Shyamalan about the theory, so I don't think he's commented on it. It'd be cool if somebody would ask him. However, in the interviews I found, he only ever refers to them as aliens and he doesn't hint at anything else they might be. I suspect that, in his mind, they're aliens, but I bet he'd dig the theory and would dig that people are thinking about it on that level. And, yeah, it's certainly one of the most plausible fan theories of all-time. Most theories I read seem to have forgotten or ignore large chunks of the movies, but the Aliens are Demons (like Mason is Bond) fit surprisingly well.

I feel like maybe I should rewatch Signs, like I've diminished it in my mind since the last time I saw it. When I first watched it, I enjoyed it a lot, but in retrospect, it seemed simpler.

It is surprising that you have The Village ranked so highly, since a lot of people really hated that movie. In fact, I feel like The Village was when people really started to turn on him. The Sixth Sense made everybody rave about his talent; people who saw Unbreakable liked it, although it was definitely under-seen; Signs was the first really mixed-review film where people started to go, "Oh, it was only okay"; but The Village was when a lot of people jumped off the bandwagon and he basically hasn't recovered - reputation-wise - since.

I've actually only seen Unbreakable, The Sixth Sense, Glass, Split, Signs, and Devil (which is only his story, not his direction) out of the man's filmography. I'll try to check out The Village now, though. I have had the twist spoiled, but that shouldn't make a difference, in my opinion (since I had Sixth Sense spoiled, too, and still loved it). I'd also really like to see Lady in the Water, which I thought sounded cool.

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I do suspect that Shyamalan himself probably did not intentionally write the aliens to also be able to be interpreted as demons. But then again, let's remember that he is a filmmaker who is fond of twists and misdirection, so it really would not surprise me at all if one guy he comes out and says, "Yeah, you guys figured it out. Took long enough."

I suspect if you ask most people who are familiar with Shayamalan's work, they will put Sixth Sense and Unbreakable at #1 and #2, in either order. It's funny though, because I have always preferred Signs and The Village, even though I do think Unbreakable and The Sixths Sense are also great movies.

You should definitely check out The Village. In my opinion, it tells an interesting story, with a great cast and performances, that is beautifully shot by Roger Deakins and beautifully scored by James Howard. One of the primary reasons I love it though is because I am very sympathetic to the cause of the villagers and think that their idea is a really interesting one.

As for Lady in the Water, well, it was okay. Honestly I would have to put it into the category of "interesting failure." If the concept is intriguing to you, it's at least worth one viewing.

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I'd love to hear Shyamalan's thoughts on that theory, intentional or not. Maybe they're both, like it's some kind of CS Lewis Cosmic Trilogy blending of sci-fi and theology. Or like when The Doctor finds the Devil in that one planet's core. They're demon aliens.

Unbreakable and Sixth Sense are my numbers 1 and 2. My list of Shyamalan films I've seen (in my last post) is actually in order of my appreciation for them. It's neat seeing them arrayed like that because, as I said, I enjoy Signs, so the fact that it's near the bottom says something very positive about M. Night's quality.

I'll check out The Village, and probably Lady in the Water (maybe even a Signs re-watch).

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yes. he is corrects.

the character is this film just shout and scream all time. they are hyper. there is no substances.

nick cage is not likable.

michael bays mantra is style over substances. he is hack.

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Black is correct.
This movie is dogshit.

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I don't care what Shane Black thinks, all I care about is are you happy with your haircut?

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It IS dogshit, except the main title sequence after which you can turn the movie off without missing anything important.

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It’s pretty bad but I’ll give it this, it’s at least tolerable the second half once all the annoying characters get out of the way.

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This is the *ONE* and only Michael Bay film it's okay to like. Pretty much everything else he's done is complete cack.

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