*SPOILER*-------
At the very end when it's revealed that they(Pilar and the Sherrif) are half-brother-and-sister,she ask something to the effect of : "So, that's it? it's over ? I mean I'm sterile, so whaddya say ? Let's keep hittin' it."
At that point I would've been going home to pore scalding water on my you-know-where, not trying to figure out why it's O.k. to keep making the grown-up.Am I being irrational ?
More hysterical than irrational, I'd say. Incest is illegal because of the genetic risk, and to stop younger females being taken advantage of by elder male relatives. Sam and Pilar are both mature, consenting adults, who were not raised as brother and sister. She can't have any more children, so they are not polluting any gene pools. The reason why incest is 'taboo' is because of society. But if Sam and Pilar were brought up in separate families, and have never thought of the other as a sibling, then why shouldn't they choose to 'forget the Alamo'? They would still have to leave Frontera, because of those who know about their biological connection, but the fact that they share a father - and only biologically, not in a familial sense - means nothing to them. I love how this film really gets you to think. If Sam had never found the letter to his father from Pilar's mother, he would probably have ended up with Pilar anyway, and nobody would have said anything, in the same way that nobody spoke of it when they were teenagers. So really, one letter is supposed to change how they feel, and have felt, for 20 years? Society stands to be hurt by their choice - Pilar's mother, her children, if the rumour ever got out - but to Sam and Pilar, the letter doesn't change the past. It doesn't suddenly mean that they were raised in the same home, by the same mother and father. It's something they can safely ignore, and they would only have to change their lives because of what others think.
shareI love this movie too--it's one of my perpetual top 5, along with the 1962 Manchurian Candidate.
I agree with your interpretation, Flippitygibbit, to a point--yes, all of the practical reasons for prohibiting brother-sister incest are moot in Pilar and Sam's case. However, I have never been so sure that the letter didn't change things for Sam and Pilar anyway, despite what they say out loud to each other while sitting at the abandoned drive-in. Sam particularly looks like he will not be able to continue with the relationship, and his passive agreement with Pilar is mostly because it's too painful for him to disagree with her at that moment. I always thought this was maybe because, unlike Pilar (as you said), Sam did have Buddy as an actual, not just biological father, and so it would be much harder for him to disassociate Pilar's parentage from his feelings for her than it would be for Pilar to do the same concerning Sam.
For me, that line "forget the Alamo" really is the key to the scene and the movie (along with "It's always heartwarming to see a prejudice defeated by a deeper prejudice."), but not for the reason you implied above. The fact is, in 1996 it had been 160 years since the battle at the Alamo, and, as Sam and Pilar were well aware, NOBODY had come CLOSE to forgetting it yet. They know already how hard it is for society to erase long-standing prejudices, and I think that by likening their situaiton to the standing the Alamo still has in their culture, they are acknowledging to themselves that their relationship isn't going to happen. Staying together would mean not just moving far away from Texas but uprooting Pilar's kids, somehow making sure they never find out their stepfather is their uncle, and cutting all contact with Pilar's mother. Pretty harsh.
It's great that such a low-key, understated film as this has so many followers!
I think you're right about 'what happens next', Thomasina. That is what I get stuck on whenever the credits roll. The sacrifices are all Pilar's. Sam had never felt comfortable since returning to Frontera, and then he learns that his father isn't the man Sam thought he was, compounding how he has already to started to feel about his job ('I'm just a jailer. I run a hotel with bars on the windows'). He has no ties - his parents are dead, he's still living in the past, and he hasn't put down any permanent roots (the lack of pictures in his apartment). But Pilar is a teacher, and a widow raising her two teenage children. Her mother is a respected businesswoman, connecting the family (on however flimsy a basis) to the town. Although Pilar seemed eager to continue the relationship after Sam showed her the letter and explained, I wonder if confronting her family - or just abandoning them - would have changed her mind? Her children already seemed a little unstable. Would moving them - especially her son - away from the Anglo-Mexican background of Texas be good for them? What would she tell them? I think Pilar would initially be angry enough to confront her mother about her background, but that would be admitting to Mercedes that 'I know he's my half-brother, but we don't care'. Nor could they stay in town. Even if Mercedes kept quiet - for the sake of her own reputation - others in town know of Buddy and Mercedes. And Sam is nearly out of a job - what would he do?
I think the gloss would quickly wear off, once the practicalities set in. And that's probably why the film was best closing where it did!
>It's great that such a low-key, understated film as this has so many followers!
Agree. I think this is one of the best almost-unknown movies out there. I've recommended this gem to more people (none of whom had ever heard of it but all of whom loved it after they saw it) than any other movie. I've lived in Texas, and this movie defines what it means to be Texan.
Oh, and it does help if you're a Chris Cooper fan, as I am :) Looking forward to seeing "Silver City."
I've recommended it a lot, also - but to certain people, who have the patience and perspective to enjoy it. Wouldn't appeal to the mass of movie-goers, I think, but it's one of my very favorite films of all time.
share[deleted]
>I love this movie too--it's one of my perpetual top 5, along with the 1962 Manchurian Candidate.
Agree wholeheartedly, Thomasina. I include "All About Eve" in my top 5. One of the other two spots on my list goes to "Memento." Guess I'm a sucker for well-written movies with both brains and heart. The last spot rotates among many faves: "L.A. Confidential," "Chinatown," "Lonesome Dove," "The Usual Suspects," "Patton," "Bringing Up Baby," "Night of the Hunter (1955)," "How Green was My Valley," "The Haunting (1963)," "Vertigo," "The Third Man" among others.
Would be interested in knowing your other three top picks.
BTW, love the Disney movie of your name. Also, "Greyfriar's Bobby" and "Pollyanna."
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Thanks for your posts. I agree with you, and always enjoy reading intelligent observations about this movie.
Multiplex: 100+ shows a day, NONE worth watching. John Sayles' latest: NO distribution. SAD.
Flippitygibbit, I wish I could write as clearly as you do. Plus, it helps that I agree with almost every thing that you write. Thank you for your thoughts.
shareThanks - though I only seem to manage clarity on things that don't really matter ;)
'Lone Star' lends itself to further thought, because it provides resolution for everyone (the army man and his father, what happened to Charlie Wade), including, I think, Sam and Pilar - and yet leaves the viewer to wonder what happens next in the lives of these characters, because they are so well written. Or at least I wonder!
Sarah
"Tony, if you talk that rubbish, I shall be forced to punch your head" - Lord Tony's Wife, Orczy
The way I understand the ending is that they start their relationship as if they had had no past. Remember, after Sam tells Pilar that they have the same partner, she asks him if that means he doesn't want to be with her anymore (that was after she told him she couldn't have any more children), and he answered that even if he only met her today for the first time (and that means knowing about them being half brother and sister), he'd want to be with her. And the way they say that, neither of them means in a brother and sister kind of way.
And while I don't know anything about The Alamo, apart from what was told about it in the movie, I gathered that it meant they were going to ignore what was standing between them. In the beginning, there was this row between parents and teachers both from a Mexican and an Anglo background about whose point of view about the Alamo (and that was a war between hispanic and anglo settlers of the Texan territory, right?) should be taught in school. It was still white against hispanic, and they were going to put that behind them as well. Pilar accused her mother that she was against her going out with Anglos, Hollis told Sam that his father would have warned the mixed couple in the bar - they'd leave all that behind, too.
Some people in town know about their blood connection, but nobody ever mentioned it to either of them, not back when they were kids and not now when they're adults. Probably nobody apart from Mercedes and Buddy really knew, they just suspected. They'll go on turning a blind eye, there'll be no need to leave town, there'll be no damage to Pilar's children. Sam will probably have a good effect on Amado, so the older people who know or suspect something are likely to remain silent for his sake, none of them wants that kid to become delinquent.
Dogs are sons of bitches.
Rumrunner. Period.
Even if people only suspect - and I interpreted it as people actually *knowing*, from Mercedes to the Native American, who talked about Sam's father and "that other woman" and then became evasive when Sam asked further - then the gossip alone could be dangerous to Sam and Pilar trying to start a new family together. Pilar's son in particular is a fragile case, accepting what is essentially a new father figure - hearing whispers that your step-father is actually your uncle isn't going to be helpful! And Mercedes might not be able to accept the situation - how would Pilar explain their grandmother's attitude to her children? I felt that Sam and Pilar should be together, but that they would have to leave Frontera. If only for a fresh start, away from ghosts of every kind.
shareOn a side issue--remember when Sam's dad tore him and Pilar apart when they were in the drive-in as teenagers? He knew, but didn't say anything about the relationship.
shareI wonder if that was the last night they saw each other? Perhaps Buddy found out (he didn't know when flashback-Sam was talking to Pilar by the river), started spying on them, caught them at the drive-in, and went to talk to Mercedes after Hollis dragged Pilar home. The two of them then arranged to permanently separate their children, because it was getting too dangerous (although Sam and Pilar had already had sex). Hollis says to Sam on the subject of his father, "You lived in the man's house - what? - seventeen, eighteen years, and you didn't get to know him any better than that?" So as soon as Sam could, he left home. And Pilar was sent to a girls' school for the last two years of her education, because Mercedes wanted "to get [her] away from - from boys" (on a side note - did Pilar's enigmatic smile in answer to that question from Paloma mean that her mother's plan did or didn't work?) I'm just thinking out the timeline of events (because I've thought about most every other aspect of this film!) - was it a slow-burning relationship, evolving from childhood connections ("You can't be in love when you're 14", "Of course you can"), or was there a sudden spark and they were together? I doubt Buddy or Mercedes would have entertained too much of a romance for very long ("I never said that! It was just that boy").
Sarah
"Tony, if you talk that rubbish, I shall be forced to punch your head" - Lord Tony's Wife, Orczy
I really like reading your comments and thoughts on this great movie. Also, like an idiot, I never before made any connection between the drive-in of the flashback scene and the fact that Sam and Pilar are at that same place at the end. HOW many times have I seen this movie?!
I do not think that Sam and Pilar have ever actually had sex before the reunion as adults. Making out for sure, and other such stuff as teens will do (but beyond which far fewer went in those days than now). Quite possibly they would have, given time and opportunity, but my impression is that they were separated before that happened. To me, that makes what I see as their first time that much more potent.
P.S.--Great that you quote from SCARLET PIMPERNEL lore.
IIRC, in a flashback of the two teenagers one day at the river, I think Sam asks Pilar if she thinks what they did was wrong. She says no. I believe they're referring to having sex. So, I think they already did it. On the occasion they did it as adults, seems like they made some reference to it always being great between them. I could be wrong, but this is the way I remember it. Don't have a DVD and it dropped off the TiVo.
shareYes, the implication is that they did as teenagers.
shareAnd to add on to that, after they finish having sex in sams apartment they say:
PILAR
How come it feels the same?
SAM
I don't know. it just feels good.
Always did.
“And to add on to that, after they finish having sex in sams apartment they say:
PILAR
How come it feels the same?
SAM
I don't know. it just feels good.
Always did.”
I just finished watching this powerful film again and must say that having lived in Texas most of my life (Corpus Christi, San Antonio, Houston, Dallas, Rio Grande Valley), the film’s theme, cultural and environmental surroundings continue to strike a chord with me. Regarding the quote above from the previous thread response, I understand that in terms of maturity from adolescence into adulthood, some growth does occur both physically and emotionally which brings into play associated aspects. Namely: 1) if Sam and Pilar were not intimate when they were younger, this could have meant that although they consummated in the present, they were expressing their newfound union in terms of emotions. Although distinctive physically, the focus was on the similarity regarding emotions as the ongoing bond prevailed. This is indicative of true love and consistent with its founding values and principles of long-suffering attraction and enduring magnetism. Or, 2) if they were intimate when they were younger, this could have meant that the physical part remained the same in spite of their individual adult statures.
I do not recall any Rio County back in Texas, and informal research indicated that none exists. However the towns of Frontera and Perdido (Creek) mentioned in the film during the investigation have relevance in name and proximity to the Mexican border. Frontera (meaning “border”), TX existed in the 1850s and 1860s and according to The Handbook of Texas Online, “the site of Frontera is near the present intersection of Sunland Park and Doniphan drives and is crossed by the Santa Fe Railroad track and paved roads” in El Paso. Perdido Creek (Perdido meaning “lost”) is near the Del Rio / Mexican border. The zip code of 78401 does appear on Rio County letterhead for Frontera, but it is a zip code in my home town of Corpus Christi (about 150 miles from Mexico); nowhere geographically near the border environment of the film (either culturally or politically). Although the act of incest remains the same, states vary in their definitions and it basically depends on where one lives. So if the adjacent towns of El Paso and Del Rio were the intended legal surroundings, a thorough review of their legal websites for criminal incest revealed nothing specific beyond the typical inclusion of the word itself. Therefore, since all this occurred in a mythical county, one cannot determine applicable laws (but I think we get the idea).
So the crux and vast weight of Sam and Pilar’s relationship was carried out in terms of being non-relatives, just as other regular relationships. So, because the film explicitly portrays relations between Sam and Pilar in the present and does not directly address it as having occurred in the past, as well as indicate consistency with love’s values and principles, I am inclined to believe that they had not consummated their relationship until they had reached adulthood. This is also a clever and strategic theatrical device employed in the latter stage of the movie by Sayles in order to give pensive pause to bring forth further thought and discussion on the sensitive subject of true love in the face of the specter of familial impropriety. Just some thoughts...
PS – Literature study reminds me to always look for interesting character names metaphorically indicative of their role or activity; esp. the protagonist and antagonist. This one is no different: Sheriff “Buddy” Deeds (“friend” in office during troubled times/does good deeds), Sheriff Sam Deeds (regular good deeds), Pilar Cruz (pillar of society/noble cross), Mercedes Cruz (had a fine car/noble cross), Sgt. Cliff (on the interracial precipice), Mayor Hollis Pogue (“Pogue” - Whiskey drinker), and of course Sheriff Charlie Wade (waded through everyone like they were water).
Reference:
Handbook of Texas Online (June 6, 2001). TSHA Online A Digital Gateway to Texas History at the University of Texas at Austin. Frontera, Texas. Retrieved March 22, 2006, from http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/FF/hvf52.html.
laffingcow, they put the scene in the movie just to tell us they had sex as teenagers. The characters were made to discuss whether they did something wrong. That something would not be failing to consumate their relationship. There would be no point. Every minute on screen costs money; they wouldn't bother filming the scene if it wasn't for a purpose. I'm taking them at their word.
sharelaffingcow, they put the scene in the movie just to tell us they had sex as teenagers. The characters were made to discuss whether they did something wrong.
Totally agree. In the flashback, young Pilar said "it's supposed to be a big sin even if you love each other." What else could that be referring to, than that they had sex? Young Sam asks her, "Do you think so?" and she says, "No." (And then when the scene goes back to the present, adult Sam replies, "Me neither.")
Also, the scene right before this flashback is at that same spot, and Sam and Pilar have just walked over there after running into each other at the unveiling of the Buddy statue. They are having a pleasant conversation, and then Sam asks Pilar, "Remember?. . ." and her demeanor completely changes, she gets uncomfortable and says she needs to get back, and leaves. The flashback then confirms what made her uncomfortable about Sam bringing it up: he remembers that they had sex there, and so does she.
So you have the scene in the past where they talk about having just done it and they don't think it was wrong, the scene in the present when Sam makes Pilar uncomfortable by trying to reminisce about it, and then when they have sex as adults, they talk about how it feels good. It is very clear that they had sex as teenagers. In fact, the implication is that they did more than once, since adult Sam remarks that it "always" felt good.
like an idiot, I never before made any connection between the drive-in of the flashback scene and the fact that Sam and Pilar are at that same place at the end.
I really hadn't either, thanks for pointing it out. Given that, it adds to the significance which I've read about elsewhere, that they are staring at a blank screen. Forget what happened in the past (some of which happened right where they are now), the future is a blank slate and we can create the future we want. Pilar's "Forget the Alamo" reinforces this.
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The whole point of the movie was to show that societal boundaries shouldn't keep you from doing something and the past shouldnt dictate the present, which is why the two stayed together. It doesnt mean that the director supported incest, he was just making a statement.
shareWhat littlemisstwirly (littlemisstwirly?) said...
But "Shudder" is far from alone! I wrote a story, for fanfiction.net, and although 370 people have read it, nobody has posted in my thread since I wrote it, and one of my favorite people no longer reads anything I wrote, and asks that I not address her in public, or refer to her, and has my PMs on ignore....she used to LOVE my stuff...I don't support incest either--just this PARTICULAR incest...
Shudder? Whimper...
"O, That blue, blue shirt of yours"--from an ancient Chinese poem
They had the same father, but not the same mother right? So they are half-brother/sister. So what's wrong with that? She already said she can't have any more kids. Is there a problem?
shareI know...but for those to whom any kind of incest is a horror like child rape, it is of course a problem. I don't think people can help what they're horrified by
"O, That blue, blue shirt of yours"--from an ancient Chinese poem
Incest is more than just a worry about genetically defective kids, it causes an unhealthy social dynamic within a family. But since Sam and Pilar are of the same generation and the same age, cannot have children and were not raised in the same family, I could see them making it work.
Especially since their ties to their respective families are limited and Pilar's lineage was hidden from everyone (which is a lie they could keep up).
I agree with you completely, but you can't talk people out of their private horros, no matter how unreassonable they might seem in the particular case under discussion.
"Thus began our longest journey together." To Kill a Mockingbird
I don't think there's anything "irrational" about feeling uncomfortable in response to the revelation at the end of the movie. Sayles obviously wants the viewer to react in this way; how could a person who was brought up in modern society not have this type of reaction?
He wants the viewer to think about what's going to happen next for these characters. By introducing the incest angle, he makes the movie more "personal" - everyone can think about how they would react if someone they loved deeply turned out to be their half-brother/sister. As several others have pointed out, I think there are several possible interpretations of Sam and Pilar's discussion at the conclusion of the movie. The ending is uncertain, as the endings of most great movies are.
If your response, after viewing the ending, is "Nuuuoooo this ruined the whole movie for me I wanted Sam and Pilar to end up together and live happily ever after and have hundreds of babies," then well, that is an immature response, and you've missed the point. In my opinion, this ending, as uncomfortable and jarring as it is, is what makes this movie a masterpiece.
So there really are people out there who think incest is cool as long as the participants are consenting and there are no children involved? Wow. Liberals, with the help of the "entertainment" business are doing a great job of dismantling the moral structure of a once God fearing nation. Congratulations. I suppose adults having sex with children will be "normalized" next. Oh wait, that movement is already well under way.
shareWow, kroyall. The relationship in this case is between two people who never knew they were related, until the very end of the movie. They do not think of themselves as (half) brother and sister, and never lived that way. The point of the last scene is to forget the past, which they never knew about anyway, that they happened to be fathered by the same man (so much for the "moral structure" in place in that once God fearing nation.)
It IS supposed to be controversial, and worthy of discussion. But that has nothing to do with adults having sex with children. You just destroyed any validity your argument might have had, by bringing that into this.
You must be the change you seek in the world. -- Gandhi
So there really are people out there who think incest is cool as long as the participants are consenting and there are no children involved?
So there really are people out there who put dogma before humanity? Apparently so.
Edward
What does fearing God have to do with the prohibition against incest? In the Old Testament at least, God doesn't seem to be altogether against it, since all mankind is derived, as He commanded ("be fruitful and multiply"), from the descendants of Adam and Eve. And also again after the deluge, from the family of Noah, who were the only human being spared from the flood. So, if the Holy Book is correct, we are all products of divine sanctioned incest.
shareIt seemed obvious to me that they were going to continue the relationship when I watched it. In retrospect it may not have been so obvious.
Either way I don't see anyone being harmed by it as she is sterile and they weren't raised as siblings.