A small history lesson for people outside ex-Yugoslavia - Lepa sela lepo gore (1997) Discussion

[–] jm2-1 18 years ago

Weren't the Slovenes and most of the Croats out from under the Turks, and instead under the rule of Austria, Hungary or Venice?

And part of the legacy of the Turks is the Muslim populations there in the Balkans - in Bosnia, the Sandzak area of Serbia and Montenegro, Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia, etc.

Greece and Bulgaria were however able/allowed to expell much of their Muslim population, weren't they? Didn't Greece swap its Muslims with Christians in Turkey?

Also, once the Turks started weakening, Austria stepped in to shore up the Muslims in Bosnia, Sandzak, etc. because Austria and Germany hated Serbs/Serbia and saw it as being in the way. With the Turks no longer a threat and then leaving, Austria and other countries wanted to control more land where Serbs lived.

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[–] kamnik69 18 years ago

NO & YES. We are talking 14th-15th-16th century and back than we were all under Turks. 17th-18th was an era under austrian-hungarian monarchy for Slovenians and Croats, Serbs wasnt part of it.

Agreed.

I dont know.

There was no hatred from Austria-Germany towards Serbia at that time, it was just imperialism at his height. It is everything about power.

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[–] josipmac 14 years ago

"NO & YES. We are talking 14th-15th-16th century and back than we were all under Turks."

Serbian propaganda machine giving history lessons again.

I have no desire to debate here with any patriots ("people with no other virtue"). But for foreign visitors of this board, let me correct this statement, and you can easily verify it;

At no point in history was Croatia under Turks. The "we were all under Turks" phrase used here is wishful thinking - a wish to equalize the realities of the time. But unlike Serbia, Croatia and Slovenia were not under Ottoman rule. Croatia did lose 2/3 of its territory at the height of Ottoman power. But 1/3 still resisted and was never under Ottoman rule.

Check "Hundred Years Croatian Ottoman War" in Wikipedia.

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[–] lomnjac 11 years ago

Oh you got him there, you didn't loose ALL of your territory so he's just writing some wishfull thinking, remind me, we we under Turks since 1454 until 1878 (1912 for Kosmet and a small part of Central Serbia), and you were free from 10-th centiry??? NOT, you were slaves of the Hungars for almost a MILLENIA, and latter AU monarchy, and you were FREED BY US!!! So mych for "Serbian propaganda overwriting hystorical facts", nice way to thank us with Jasenovac...

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[–] dusan711 18 years ago

My grandfather was a Draza Mihailovic Cetnik. And I have been to King Petar's grave at the Monastery which is the oldest Orthodox Church in North America in Illinois.

It's nice to see some people getting history right.

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[–] kamnik69 18 years ago

Thank you.

EaterOfSouls doesnt agree with that history. :)

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[–] EaterOfSouls 18 years ago

At the beginning all nations (Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, Macedonians and Slovenians with some ethnic minorities) were under rule of the Otoman empire (nowadays Turkey).

at the begining, Croats forged a kingdom in about 7th century

Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, Macedonians and Slovenians with some ethnic minorities

"at the begining" there weren't Bosnians, they were Croat

(if you know the legend of Dracula you can remember that Turks weren't so nice back then)

Dracula wasn't a Turk, he was a Romanian who defied turks. Get your history straight

In that time there was no country in the world who would dare to oppose the 3rd Reich! Serbs did! King Petar escaped to England!

Yes, and could not return later because communists ocused him of collaborating with nazis

Did you know that former Yugoslavia won that war against Germans without any help from others with tactics that now days are called "guerilla warfare".

Yeah, how about Italian, British and Soviet help?

Kiss my bender

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[–] kamnik69 18 years ago

Movie was about hatred and vengance, so it goes somewhere in 14th-15th century.
Or you wish to say that are Croats responsible for that? Nobody is defined guilty.
Mankind is.

There was no Bosnia until 1945 when republics were defined by communist party and TITO.

It is not Dracula that is important, we're talking about Turks and we all know that Dracula became what he was becouse of Turks. If you didn't understand that, I was talking about horror Turks provided back than and the only movie that is well known is Dracula.

King Petar is again no issue here. He was not ocused of collaboration, he was found guilty of treason in the court of law. (altough it was communist law) but that has nothing to do with it. He escaped when it was hot and when things chill down he want to come back.

Italians occupeid Slovenia and were responsible for 200.000 deaths in a nation that has 2mio population 200k is 10% until year 1943 when they become allies. Bounch of two faced pussys.

British didn't provide any help at all becouse they were forbiden by Americans.
They did something awful, they gave Trst (Trieste) which was the biggest city with the biggest harbour at that time (1945) to Italians. Trst (Trieste) was with 300k population bigger in year 1945 than Beograd (Belgrade) with 200k population.

About the Soviets let say they came near our borders trying to help but that was not alowed by TITO.

BTW: history is manipulated by the one who is talking about it, truth is only one.

So, kiss your bender yourself and have a nice time ;)

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[–] EaterOfSouls 18 years ago

There was no Bosnia until 1945 when republics were defined by communist party and TITO.

I didn't say bosnia, i sad bosnians - reffereing to people

British didn't provide any help at all becouse they were forbiden by Americans.

british surrendered croat army in communist's hands at bleiburg

oh and about the turks, croatia was NEVER entirely under turk control, unlike serbia

Kiss my bender

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[–] jm2-1 18 years ago

British provided lots of help for Tito and the Partisans. See here: http://www.usna.edu/History/honors/2003/GordonThesis.doc

Much ammunition, medical help, etc.

Also, it was the British who prevented the Americans from associating with the Chetnik leaders. The British communists were also sending false reports on the Chetniks and giving Tito credit for what Chetniks accomplished.

The British even tried to prevent the rescue of hundreds of downed Allied airmen because they didn't want to give the Chetniks credit for helping the men - it would work against their propaganda. Ironically, the allies were bombing the Serb civilians and infrastructure at the request of Tito (Tito got to choose the targets), while the German Gestapo headquarters were by and large not bombed. (There might have been some kind of deal with the Allies to allow the Germans to leave the Balkans when the Russians finally drove them out.)

From: "Operatives, Spies, and Saboteurs: The Unknown Story of the Men and Women of WWII’s OSS" (2004), by Patrick K. O’Donnell

Chapter Six

Into the Balkans

Yugoslavia and Albania

...OSS also conducted covert espionage and sabotage missions, and rescued hundreds of Allied fliers. Unfortunately, OSS operations were complicated by turf wars with the British SOE, which had been given preeminence over the Balkans by the Donovan-Hambro Accords. (2)

The Donovan-Hambro Accords placed covert operations in the Balkans under the tight control of the British.

...

Art Jibilian, who had recently returned from Linn Farish’s mission with Tito, was asked to join Halyard. “I was contacted since I was an experienced radio operator behind the lines. They asked, ‘Would you like to go in again?’ I said, ‘Sure.’

“It took us almost a month to get in because the British didn’t want us to go in….[They didn’t want] Mihailovic to get credit for helping American airmen.

“After about a month we finally got into Pranjane. When we landed we found not 50 but 250 airmen. They were in pretty bad shape. Some of them had wounds they had been force-marched, et cetera. Many did not have boots in the parachute jumps but the natives made sure they had something on their feet. These people fed the men; 250 take up a lot of resources and those people fed these men at the expense of themselves and their children.

“Directing about 300 laborers, we built the airstrip. When we were with the Halyard Mission, preparing an airfield to evacuate downed fliers, the Partisans were shelling us with our own ammunition that we had dropped to them.

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[–] balkan_bloke7 18 years ago

The Cetniks did nothing buy hide at Ravna Gora and let their beard grow.

Long live the memory of the true defenders of Yugoslavia, The Partizans!!!!!!

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[–] jm2-1 18 years ago

You are a liar. American Operatives who were there witnessed an attack on the Chetniks by Germans and the subsequent fight.

British Communist Moles were giving Tito credit for Chetnik attacks. Tito was traveling to other countries for meetings DURING the war. He spent time hiding in caves and travelling for meetings, getting false credit.

Partizans are a lie and were raised by Brits and U.S. AFTER the Chetniks started the uprising against Germans.

The Partizans didn't start until months after the war, and their sole purpose seems to have been to destroy the Chetniks. They were commies and led by a Croat-Slovene, Tito. A people who weren't being killed by the Germans and had no reason to fight for survival. He was a puppet.

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[–] balkan_bloke7 18 years ago

"You are a liar. American Operatives who were there witnessed an attack on the Chetniks by Germans and the subsequent fight."

Of cors the Cetniks were attacked by Germans. No one can deny that. The point is the Cetniks ddnt fight back, because Draza was a puss*y. Later on you guys allied yourselves with them.

"British Communist Moles were giving Tito credit for Chetnik attacks."

Yeah because the British are renowned for having Communists in their highest military and political ranks? Ajde bre, nemoj me zezat.

"Tito was traveling to other countries for meetings DURING the war. He spent time hiding in caves and travelling for meetings, getting false credit."

Just No. Why would Tito (An accomplished Military Leader) not fight on the front lines? The man fought in World War 2 for Austria-Hungary and was made one of the youngest Generals in the army due to his bravery. He then fought in the Russian CIvil War followed by the Spanish Civil War. What did Draza accomplish during these time?? Absolutely nothing....Just like in World War 2. He started travelling around in 1944 to meet leaders of the Allies after his Partizans were close to winning the war. Please dont talk sh*it.

"Partizans are a lie and were raised by Brits and U.S. AFTER the Chetniks started the uprising against Germans."

The only reason you guys started first was because the Cetniks were already organised when the Nazis attacked. Draza was a military leader (Cra*p one btw). The Cetniks were part of the Royal Yugoslav Military and were therefore already created. Tito ddnt have an army organised, because he ddnt have a goverment behind it. However his numbers grew as Serbs around Bosna and Croatia realised that those pus*sy *beep* Cetniks werent going to help them out against the Fascists. Thnx to them half my mothers side from Croatia were thrown into Jasenovac and killed whilst my dads side from Montenegro had to live under Djurisic' Italian-Fascist co-alition. But guess who came through for my Serbian family in the end?? The partizans........

"and their sole purpose seems to have been to destroy the Chetniks."

Get over yourself. The Cetniks ddnt mean anything to anyone in World War 2.
The Ustase and Germans mocked them.
The Italians allied with them.
The Partizans destroyed them.
And the rest of the world laughed at them.
The only people that were worried about the Cetniks were the Muslims and Croat civilians.

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[–] jm2-1 18 years ago

"The only people that were worried about the Cetniks were the Muslims and Croat civilians."

Why didn't their population fall if they lost so many civilians?

Can you name these Muslim and Croat civilians killed by the Chetniks? Do you have photographic evidence?

Funny how you blame the Chetniks for the German and Croat-run camps, with Muslim (so-called flowers of the Croats) help.

"Why would Tito (An accomplished Military Leader) not fight on the front lines? The man fought in World War 2 for Austria-Hungary and was made one of the youngest Generals in the army due to his bravery."

He fought against Serbs and almost made it to Belgrade back then. He was a Serb-killer. That's one of the reasons he was backed by the British. The Serb Partisans were FOOLS and DUPES.

Serbs were massacred when Tito took control of Yugoslavia - or sent to jails and camps, and often tortured and killed. Not to mention all the property confiscated by his regime. Many Serbian families today have claims against the current government for land and property stolen by Tito. Tito also damaged ruined or destroyed some Serbian industries, such as its wineries.

The BBC began to give the Partisans credit for Chetnik sabotage efforts, while circulating blatant and inaccurate accounts of Chetnik collaboration with the Germans. “Even before the new [British] policy had been approved, the BBC had on its own initiative started to compliment his [Mihailovic’s] opponents.” The successful Chetnik attack on German supplies and bridge at Visegrad in September 1943 was instead credited to the Partisan effort. This disinformation continued into 1943 and only exacerbated the worsening situation between the British and Mihailovic.

http://www.usna.edu/History/honors/2003/GordonThesis.doc

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[–] balkan_bloke7 18 years ago

Its these lies and fabrications of history that have caused the downfall of Yugoslavia, and Serbia. In less then 24 hours my country will be Independent for the first time in 90 years, whilst Kosovo Independance is also nearly upon us. Thank you Cetniks for *beep* up Serbia and the entire region.

Long live Tito.
Long live Yugoslavia.
Long Live Independent Montenegro!,
Death to Fascists and Cetniks, Freedom to the people!!!!

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[–] jm2-1 18 years ago

You can credit your precious Tito for paving the way to an "independent" Kosova. He allowed unchecked Albanian immigration to Kosovo after WWII while at the same time preventing Serbs (and Montengrins) who'd been cleansed during the war from returning.

What destroyed your country was LACK OF LOYALTY. It was doomed in the first place because you joined with the Croats (and others) who killed Serbs each and every time an anti-Serb foreign power invaded.

They killed Serbs in WWI, yet you joined up with them. FOOLISH.

They only wanted a union, (remember Yugoslavia was a Croat's idea) from the late 1800's, to use the strength of a larger country to oppose and prevent Italy's demands on the coast and other areas which were once under Italian control Istria and Pula, for example. They are a people good at using Serbs; you are the fools.

After the war, they being on the losing side (with Austria-Hungary, Germany) didn't end up with reparations nor land loss because they joined up with Yugoslavia.

They received a GREATER CROATIA, gaining parts which were never part of Croatia before Yugoslavia. They got Dalmatia and Slavonia.

Without joining Yugoslavia these lands stood a good chance to have been divided up or perhaps completely taken by another country. Serbia might have been the greater one.

Further, the Croats started complaining from the beginning and wanted out once they got what they wanted.

Croats were even to marry Serb daughters of generals and politicans to infiltrate the army, for example.

Before the Nazi bombing of Belgrade in 1941, the Croats, within the Yugoslav army, had already worked with the Germans giving them information, plotting with them, they sabotaged the equipment and fed the army (loyal part) wrong information. They gloated over this.

It's been pointed out the much quicker take over of Serbia in WWII versus WWI when they threw back the Austrians 3 times and the Bulgarians.

The reason was Croat BETRAYAL and because you formed a country with those happy to kill Serbs at EVERY significant opportunity when a foreign government attacks Serbs.

One Canadian Serb tells how his grandfather was a POW in Germany during WWII. His grandfather, stationed in Macedonia had his unit betrayed by a Croat who then left in an airplane when the Germans captured the army.

The army and Serb men, being easily rounded up and killed or imprisoned by the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS, due to sabotage and betrayal from within was AN IMPORTANT REASON WHY THEY COULD NOT SAVE YOUR RELATIVES.

Besides that INSUFFICIENT SUPPLIES kept Draza Mihailovic from being able to mount attacks on Germans, not to mention the retaliation killings of 100 Serb civilians for every German soldier killed.

One reason for the fallout between the British and Mihailovic was that they hardly gave him any weapons. Their initial praising of the Chetniks - yet not supplying them suffient weapons - just a small amount to string them along - was to trick Serbs into thinking they were allies. They were not. The contact allowed the British to collect information, know his whereabout and manipulate him through advice. On top of that, the British were actually telling Mihailovic not to fight the Germans. Doesn't seem like they wanted any Serbs saved.By the time he broke with the British, they had Tito started, and began their propaganda against him and for Tito.

THE BRITISH DIDN'T WANT THE SERBS FREE. They also kept the Ottoman Empire alive an 150 extra years. Their politicians (Disraeli, for example) often whined at Serb success and Turkish occupation weakening/retreat.

In just several months, once Tito started his army, they sent ONE THOUSAND times as much weapons to him as they did Mihailovic.

As for the Partisans rescuing Serbs. A lie. They were to destroy Serb anti-communists.

It was the WEAKENING AND RETREAT OF THE GERMANS DUE TO THE RUSSIAN ADVANCE AND TAKEOVER which stopped the Croats from killing Serbs.

Of course many Ustasha, as Croats did in WWI - they being always quick to jump to the winning side when their Germans weaken or leave - were given amnesty by Tito if they'd join the Partisans. So many simply switched uniforms.

The second Yugoslavia wasn't Serbs' choice, but British and Americans who put him in power. The truth is that they lost the war and were attacked by the allies after the Germans lost to the Russians. Doesn't the fact that the U.S. and British directly targeted Serb homes and apartments while leaving Germans alone make you realize anything? "...how is it that they never hit the Gestapo headquarters or any other building where the Germans were holed up." - American Serb poet Charles Simic who survived the U.S. (and German) bombing of Belgrade. Read more at the link: http://www.unhmagazine.unh.edu/sp01/simic2sp01.html

The Soviet Union became the chief focus and German was divided, so you guys were somewhat left alone for decades.

This did help in many ways, and you had one country with a market of 23 million people.

However, the SEEDS OF ITS DESTRUCTION were sown in the fabric, and even Tito did not expect it to last after his death.

You were AGAIN in a country with the Croats who hate you and are brainwashed against you. So when foreign powers supported separatism - covertly and overtly - Serbs were killed off while the media spoke of Serb aggression. Don't forget the Croat terrorist attacks (especially the diaspora) on Yugoslav embassies, the airplane bombing, etc. They even hijacked a TWA plane in the 1970's for the cause of Croat independence.

Another thing is PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR SAFETY.

Why didn't your relatives defend themselves? Didn't they learn from WWI. Didn't they notice the hate speech and resentment of Croats - their involvement in the assassination of the King. They should have stocked and hid weapons, had some plans in case of being attacked, secret rooms, tunnels, escape routes.

They ignored the danger signs. One Serb man who's mother survived a WWII camps said she had, before WWII, attended a Croat Catholic mass and said the Priest was calling Serbs devils and all sort of racist and hate speech. People do not like you just because you believe they are your brothers. That is so naive. Croats do not like you. They will use you; they will watch Serb films and movies - like this one - but you'd be dumb to take it as a sign they like Serb people.

Also, what good is an army that doesn't have loyal people? Who did the "Yugoslavs" fight against besides themselves? The Germans were pushed out by the Russians. Tito and the Partisans attacked Serbia and destroyed the Chetniks, not the Germans.

The Croats and Muslims didn't have loyalty to Yugoslavia during hard times or war. They repeatedly act the same way.

And a house divided against itself cannot stand.

You were doomed to fall once U.S. and German initiated NATO/U.S. expansion plans and the Soviet Union weakened, retreated and dissolved.

They broke you up on old fault lines. Serbs being the most populous and ethnically cohesive people were in the way to the mini ethnically pure statelets. Large Serb populations were outside of Serbia - they were targeted from the start.

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[–] balkan_bloke7 18 years ago

By the looks of it, youre not from the Balkans on the former Yugoslavia. Its easy for you to form an opinion, and im sure you know alot more then I do about the situation.

May I ask, what nation are you then? Russian? Greek?

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[–] Letic95 18 years ago

At the beginning all nations (Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, Macedonians and Slovenians with some ethnic minorities) were under rule of the Otoman empire (nowadays Turkey).

at the begining, Croats and Serbs forged a kingdom in about 7th century. Croats went to the north, Serbs stayed in the South, thus our name Yougoslavs (Southslavs).

Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, Macedonians and Slovenians with some ethnic minorities

"at the begining" there weren't Bosnians, they were Croats and Serbs, but mostly serbs who came from Ukraine to drive out the Avars and Huns and such.

So, you really do need to get your history lesson Eater of Souls.

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[–] PrimeMinisterOfSinister 18 years ago

There were many chetniks.
The worst were ljotic chetniks, they had made an ss company at the end of the war.
Then the Nedic regime chetniks, so called State Guards who fought against draza's chetniks and partisans, alongside germans, while at the same time exterminated jews and expropriated their pre-war wealth.

The only true chetniks, and only the Yugoslav army in the fatherland (JVUO), sanctioned by the king in exile, was the mihajlovic's chetniks, who rescued airmen and fought the germans and the partisans. only they of the chetniks had court martials and at least rudimentary judiciary wich tried defectors and war criminals on the spot.(Preki sud)

The relentless struggle for freedom by the partisans, their socialist politics and the charismatic Tito eventualy overcame the bearded bozos and the nazis.

jm2 something is a troll. He is of trollish nationality. Remember not to feed his ego at night, his kind are like the gremlins, they can multiply and get worse.

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[–] jm2-1 18 years ago

"jm2 something is a troll. He is of trollish nationality. Remember not to feed his ego at night, his kind are like the gremlins, they can multiply and get worse."

No, you are the troll. Scolic-something of scoliosis nationality, and hunchback too, all twisted and bent - evil lookin', you come from a long line of inbred poor-postured folk. You are the one who looks like a male Madeleine Albright, but skinny which dispays your scoliosis better.

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[–] PrimeMinisterOfSinister 18 years ago

You sir, are getting personal. And you're obviously trolling. I refuse to feed you any more. Go away.

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[–] jm2-1 18 years ago

You were the one who started the personal attack on me when I had never even known of your existance. I will not go away. I was posting before you and will counter any assault you do against me. You want to fight, you will get it. You shut up about me then I won't have anything to say to you, as before.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] domagoj1973 17 years ago

HA,HA,HA,HA.....what a lie,Bosnians in the 9th century...sure and they were making pyramids as well...hahahahaha....Bosnians before ancient Egyptians....or maybe ancient Egyptans were Bosnians and under the influence of Serbs and Croats they stopped calling themselfs Bosnians.

Man keep amusing us you rule.

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] dovlinhos 17 years ago

Bosnia WAS a country. (obviously ignorant of balkan history, you probably haven't heard of Kotromanic dinasty?!) Just that it had nothing to do with the people that call themselves Bosniaks nowadays. Bosniaks base their identity on muslim religion, while in the middle-age Bosnia there weren't any muslims, they were mostly members of a christian sect called the Patarens (or Bogumils in these areas.)

Don't laugh at other people, especially when they're using historical facts, while you just try to connect stuff with recent history.

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[–] mariano_burmann 18 years ago

hehehehhe he said "kiss your bender yourself" that was awesome

ziveli

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] damiangen 18 years ago

Just for your information, you are all being tragically stupid. This whole deviation is stupid.

To those outside of Yugoslavia: please be quiet. Do not presume to know a thing about Yugoslavia or any of it's wars. Especially the wars. You do not. Things are hidden, there are lies that pass as history to entire generations, you have no access whatsoever to the truth. So please quit being so embarassing and do not speak, write or think about it. Trust me.

To those from former Yugoslavia: if in 2006 you still do not know our history (as you have so ignorantly demonstrated), join the ones addressed above, in silence.
People, this is some sad *beep* and I will also not waste much of my time on it.

Cetnici, Ustase and other extremists should be shot.
Anyone from Yugoslavia who is proud of either of these should be shot.
Anyone who prefers cevape from Sarajevo to those in Banja Luka, should be shot
(this is entwined with those who prefer Nektarku to Sarajevsko).
Anyone who engages in serious conversation and then winds up calling others names like 'trolls', should be isolated and studied in a floral environment (intellectual equality-harmony and all that).
Anyone from Yugoslavia who doesn't yet realize that people just do not CARE about who we are and were, and still proceed to argue and debate and convince away, should quit being sad.
Anyone who leaves his appartement or hotelroom in Belgrade between 13:00pm and 17:00 on a midsummer day, should really get a clue.
All facts presented by people here, are wikipedia-bs., *peep* postcard-facts and other legoland-knowledge that my 6 year-old sister could google up under 'widely published and unsubstantiated *beep* that allegedly occured in Yugoslavia during a petty few years and that now has given people the illusion that they know something about the country's history.'

This movie rules, discuss the bloody movie. Everything I have read until now is yoghurt.
I'm hungry, gotta move. Time for some of that Albanian burek:)

Warmest regards to you and yours.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] jakifirbec 18 years ago

could not agree with you more (exept on cevapi - jebiga)

To the person that started this thread - you shouldn't have slept during your history lessons. Your summary was awfull and utterly wrong.

To others that started fighting over WW2 - it's more than 50 years since- get over it.

And for Tito being the youngest general in WW2 for Austria-Hungary - i haven't laughed so hard in a long time.

Anyway the movie was excellent - tragic and funny at the same time, but you must be from the former Yugoslavia to fully understand it.

Pa mirna Bosna, as the saying goes.

"Time for some of that Albanian burek:) " - and some šljivovica after.

jakifirbec

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[–] mariano_burmann 18 years ago

I just enjoy reading what you nice people think, thats all. I´ll just watch.

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[–] dzukelica 13 years ago

A small history lesson for people outside of Yugoslavia is that we in ex Yugoslavia have about 10 different versions of history, all correct and all worth dieing for. Take your pick.

It`s like a jungle sometimes, it makes me wonder.. how i keep from goin` under. Ha-Ha.

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[–] Hector Marroquin 18 years ago

Chetniks were collaborationist cockroaches, who sucked up to the Fascist invaders. There were 2 kinds of Chetniks: 1) Those loyal to the Fascist regime in Serbia of Milan Nedic, 2) Those irregulars loyal to the exiled Tzar, and led by Draza Mihajlovic. In the very begining Mihajlovic may have been somewhat active against the Fascist invaders. It was Tito and his Partisans (made up of all of Yugoslavia's nations) who mobilized the population against Fascist aggression. Since Tito was a revolutionary, Mihajlovic then felt that Tito was a bigger threat than the Fascists, and began to collaborate with them (including throwing thousands of Serbs who supported Tito to the Ustashas). The British and the Americans only threw their support to Tito when it was obvious that the Chetniks were nothing more than slobbering bearded drunks, and were not going to win. Chetniks of Mihajlovic were a creation of Britain and USA to counter both Fascism and Communism in the beginning. I don't know where this bull was invented that the Partisans were lackeys of the West. Sounds like history trying to be rewritten. The West would never have supported Tito, if it were up to them. If the already shakey alliance with the USSR wasn't essential to beating Hitler, the Chetniks would've continued to be cradled by Winston Churchill. Modern Chetniks have names like Vuk Draskovic, Vojislav Kostunica, Zoran Djindjic, Boris Tadic, Miroljub Labus; or you can look for more extreme Chetniks like Radovan Karadzic, Ratko Mladic, Vojislav Seselj, and Arkan.

ZIVEO DRUZE TITO!
SLOBODA NARODU! SMRT FASIZMU!

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[–] damiangen 18 years ago

''and some šljivovica after''

Tako care, samo tako!

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[–] Marko10 18 years ago

Hmmm.
Not really.Communist joined war against the Nazzis AFTER they attacked Sovie Union,chetnicks were in fight from day one.
Understanding that serious fight would drive Germans mad and made them killing civilians chetnicks became quiet in 1942.and began only small actions like disabling communications and saving allied pilots(Americans mostly).
I that period Tito had plan in case if Allies make decent on Balkan instead Normandy-he knewed that chetnicks will join allied army so-he will join Nazzis,and he sended Krcun to made that deal with Germans,which he did.This is the best proof why partisans carried weapons -they wanted power in Yugoslavia after war,not some romantic fight for freedom.Of course,no one knewed for it until a few years back.
Anyway,chenticks didn`t want to stand in fight with Nazzis.so that was not in Churchill`s intrest becouse he needed as many rebelious territories which Nazzis held becouse of easying the frontlines.That was the REAL reason why he changed policy on chetnicks and began to give support to communists.
Communists,of course,wanted to have their goverment after the war so they didn`t care for civilan victims as chetnicks did.So,they lounched all kinds of operations which made more damege then use.As retaliation Nazzis began to kill Serbian civilians(the best known is killing of 7 000 high-school pupils in Kragujevac).
After abandoment by everyone chetnicks are becoming desperate,unwilling and on the end-totally mad.Some of them are commiting all kinds af crimes and other athrocities during 1943-1944.
These are authentical numbers and facts:
1)Chetnicks killed,proved by communist goverment about 27 000 civilians during the war.
2)Tito and his communist killed about 35 000 civilians in period 1944-1949.It is unknown how many civilians they killed during the war.
3)After "the liberation" of Belgrade communits partisans killed more citizens of Belgrade in 6 months than Nazzis killed during the 4 years of occupation.
4)Draza Mihajlovic gained a medal from American goverment for bravery in 1946.

Vuk Draskovic is chetnick,the authentical one.
Vojislav Kostunica was never a chetnick,same goes for Zoran Djindjic,Boris Tadic and Miroljub Labus.
For Radovan Karadzic I don`t know.
Ratko Mladic was never a chetnick,(actually I think one chetnick cut throat of his mother during the WWII so he hated everything about chetnicks for whole life).
Vojislav Seselj was declared himself as chetnick but actually he was a member of communist party.For a very short period he was a part of Ravnogorska movement but quickly expeled,so he made his own chetnicks knowned as "Seseljevci".All in all,he is not real chetnick.
Zeljko Raznatovic Arkan was never a chetnick,it was a criminal which operated in Germany mostly(like Velja character in this film).

One more thing-chetnicks were formed in 1910s(also known as "komite"),as groups which had to operate behind enemy lines(like todays commandos).Those were needed in Serbia becouse of Balkan wars,and WWI later.Word chetnick comes from the word "cheta" which means "squadron" so chetnick is actually "squad member.

Holywood made film about chetnicks bravery during 1940s.Tittle is simle-"Chetnick".
And one more thing-I have apsolutely nothing with chetnicks,my grandad was in partisans but I love the truth and after seeing everything about our WWII history I came to conclussion that both,partisans and chetnicks were total idiots becouse their first goal was not liberation,it was gaining power after war.
Still,chetnicks were more right in WWII.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] jalilidalili 18 years ago

Where to start... First off Slovenia was never under the rule of Turks - NEVER! There were occasional marches of the Turkish army trying to capture Vienna and they passed through the Slovenian therotory.
Croatia was a sort of a bumper. Parts of it were under the Turkish rule parts weren't. The parts that weren't under the Turkish rule were considered a special part of the Habsburg empire (Austria) that were ment to defend the rest of the Austria (vojne krajine - example: Karlovcka vojna krajina).
The Turks (at the begining of the 17th century) were already weakened, that's why the Austrian army went to several campaignes against the Turks (at some point in time they even liberated Beograd).
Also because the Turks were weak at this point, the natioanl movements started and people under their rule (Serbs, Bulgars, Greeks,...) started fighting them. In the 19th century they got their independance. Serbia then wanted to expand and Bosnia (with a large number of Serbian population) was one of the goals. Bosnia was still under the Turkish rule, but became cut off from the rest of the Turkish empire. Austrin army went in and took it. Serbs then killed the Austrian prince and this triggered the frist world war (the war would have happened anyway - this was jhust the excuse all sides were looking for, to start the fighting).
After the war the south Slavic teritories that were under the Habsburg rule (Slovenia, Croatia, BiH and Vojvodina) entered a union with the kingdom of Serbs (who joined their kingdom with the Montenegrians before).
Serbian governmet generally considered this kindgom their war booty and were rather reckles of the maner in which they governed. The parts under the former Habsburg rule were better developed (technologically, politically, spiritually, medically, artistically... in almost every civilization aspect), but they were (even if not by their own will) under the loosing side of the war and the Serbian king was among the winners.
All of this caused many conflicts which the Nazi/Fasist ocupation in 1941 explited. They gave Croatia an independent state and made her an ally. The Ustasi started enthnically cleansing the teritory under their rule (they were clearing away the jews and serbs mostly). The official yugoslav army (the king's army) surrenedered and the Cetniks under Draza Mihajlovic were considered the official resistance (but they colaborated with the ocupator, because they wanted to eliminate the Partizan movemant). The Partizan movement was the only group that acutally fought against the ocupation of Yugoslavia (and at the same time tried to make sure they could come to power when the war endes).
At the end of the war there were several groups that were considered enemies among themselves and against the communist government. Still Tito was able to keep all these people at bay and there were only a few unrests from time to time. After Tito's death the nationalistic movements started growin again and all the groups that were in conflict earlier started raising.
Especially Slobodan Milosevic used and abused the national emotions of the people in Serbia and wanted to abolish the system of balance between the nationalities in Yugoslavia. That's why Slovenia and Croatia decided to leave the federation. Upon doing so the war broke out. It's hard to say if this was a civil war, ethnic cleansing, a war to preserve the union, a war for independance... depends on the side you look at it from. But it was a war among people that were proclaiming brotherhood for over 4 decades. A war, where people were blinded by one or the other reason and only unnatural anger remained. That's what this movie also clearly shows.
Were you to put two people from the oposite sides together some 15 years before, they would have probably went for a drink together and exchanged a few jokes - worst case scenario, they'd have a browl. Hopefully in the near future this will be the case again.

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[–] igorimp 17 years ago

Uf. There is a lot to comment here, but I'll try to keep it simple.

First of all, the irony is that there are no (real) good guys in WW2 Yugoslavia once you analyze them.

- The Royalist Yugoslav government under a Serb king and control was a typical monarchy that repressed minorities in the state (mostly Croats and Slovenes) and used assasinations and jails to eliminate political opponents. They formed Chetnik squads before the war. As the danger of Nazis came near, the King gave away parts of Croatia to Italians (Istria and Zadar) to appease them. With the war in Greece going bad for Italians, Hitler forced the King to join the Axis powers, which he did. A revolt was staged by Serb army officers who expelled him, but the new government DID NOT offically withdraw from the agreement with Germany (they didn't really want to provoke them). Hitler invaded nonetheless and the Axis occupied the country, cutting it into pieces.

- Chetniks went to the hills and refused to surrender. At first they conducted a guerrilla campaign against the Germans, but stopped, partly due to reprisals that killed 1000s (like Kragujevac). By 1943, the resistance degenerated into looting and pillaging the population of all nationalities. The appearance of Communist partisans upset German plans and they won over the Chetniks to join them in an anti-communist alliance. Ironically (considering the last wars' hostilities), the Chetnik-Ustasha alliance was (officially) signed in Zagreb in May 1942. From that moment on, Chetniks were an Axis paramilitary force in all but name. During the crucial battle of Neretva in 1943, the Partisans were surrounded in Bosnia by Germans (from the north), Italians (south), Ustashas (west) and Chetniks (east). The Partisans broke through to the east and destroyed major Chetnik elements in the battle and they have been of little power since then. They DID save downed Allied airmen, but this was their only 1943-45 contribution to Allied side. In fact, the King (which they swore to protect) gave the Chetniks an ultimatum in '44 to turn from collaboration to helping the Partisans, which they refused, leading UK to officially label them as "Axis".

- General Nedich's Serbian "Government of National Unity" was, simply put, Serbian Vichy France.

- Ustashas were right-wing Croat extremists who worked against the monarchy from Fascist Italy. With German occupation of Yugoslavia, the Ustashas were invited to form a para-state for the purpose of winning over Croats (opressed under the King) to be loyal to them. Their death camps were the worst in the Balkans.

- Communist Partisans gained quick and easy support of the population by promoting national unity (unlike Chetniks and Ustashe - purely nationalistic groups) and, as a result, managed to win the majority of the Yugo population. Their fight for the countries freedom made them the only 'good guy' during the war. However, post war attrocities (like Bleiburg) and dictatorial rule showed that even they weren't all nice.

- Germany... well, we all know what Nazi Germany was like.

- Italy turned from Axis to Allied in 1943. As a result, the lands they aquired (Dalmatia and Istria) fell back under local control. Since then, Italy exeggerated it's contribution to the Allies to make its Fasicst past be forgotten.

- Yugoslavia's neighbours were all expansionistic and saw the 1941 attack as a chance to gain territory. Germany, Italy, Hungary and Bulgaria all annexed parts of the country for themselves.

- Soviet Union until 1943 saw all resistance to Germany as good, this changed as USSR found itself winning the war. Stalin thought it would look better if his Red Army 'liberated' Europe from Nazis then if others did it themselves. Because of this, Stalin did not really send much assistance to Partisans.

- Great Britain supported the Chetniks until 1943, when it became obvious Tito's forces were doing the majority of the fighting. Bringing much needed supplies and support to the Partisans, UK saw the resistance mearly as a distraction for the Germans - nothing more - and were more then willing to turn back surrendering refugees to the Partisans in 1945.

- USA wasn't really interested in this part of Europe, and therefore they followed British lead. They just didn't care.

FINAL ASSESTMENT:
There were no 'good guys' per se here. All groups that existed were either power-hungry warlords or countries that saw Yugoslavia as "that minor problem on the edge of the big map". Most important of all, all groups did terrible things to civilians, in many cases slaughtering a lot of their own population (like Chetnik terror raids in Serb parts of Bosnia or Ustashas killing thosands of Croats).

The reason everyone here jumps to defend one group or another is because your fathers have implanted a false history to you, because it's history your grandfathers implanted in them.

Eventually, people get killed in wars... more often then not they are civilians: women and children who, in more cases, don't care about ideologies or sides... they just wanted to live their life in peace. They didn't get even that.

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[–] seger-1 17 years ago

Thanks God! Finally putting some things straight! What I find ultimately endearing is the passion with which our people (everyone from the Western Balkans) just keep asserting the bond of brotherly hate (now they'll just yell that we are no brothers - OK, OK). I think no outsider can understand it, and unfortunately this just implies that we all well deserved each other in the past, even if we do not live in the same country any more (thanks God for that too!).

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[–] bezerk 17 years ago

cedo, cedooooooooo! dodzi, nece te nista bolit

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[–] djurikom 17 years ago

Ja ne znam sta se ustase ovde javljaju, lepo daj ocenu 1 svim srpskim filmovima i idi hvali "hrvatsku vojsku" u 2. svetskom ratu tamo na Indexu.
Samo glupi stranci mogu padati na takva proseravanja, a i njih verovatno i zabole, svi mi ovde dobro znamo sta je istina.

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[–] pentraksil 17 years ago

To care.....Balkan ce uvek znati sat se sve desavalo ovde..mogu da pricaju sto god oce zapadu...svi ovde znamo kakvih je sranja bilo tamo

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] kapv 17 years ago

word.

just to add (to some writer above) that bosnia and hercegovina was a kingdom from back in the 10th century. its not a new state found in 1945 or something.
bosnians are no croats , no serbs.. and those so called "bosnian-serbs" and "bosnian-croats" used simply the word "bosnian" to describe themselves till the mid of the 19th century..doesnt matter wich religion they had. and this is how it should be again.
united - powerful!

imagine: in germany there would be no "germans", but catholics, protestants, turkish-muslims, arabs, french, bavarian,... blaaaaaaah. bullsh*t. theyre all germans. and maybe one day the people in bosnia will understand that they're all just bosnians. doesnt matter wich confession.

zivili!

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[–] knez-4 17 years ago

bosnians are no croats , no serbs.. and those so called "bosnian-serbs" and "bosnian-croats" used simply the word "bosnian" to describe themselves till the mid of the 19th century..doesnt matter wich religion they had. and this is how it should be again.
united - powerful!

This is some unitarian nonsense, at all odds with the current political and historical realities. Makes good propaganda for someone favouring Muslim domination of what is today very much a divided part of a real country called Serbia.

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[–] dovlinhos 17 years ago

'Did you know that former Yugoslavia won that war against Germans without any help from others with tactics that now days are called "guerilla warfare".

Not quite. Lots of help from the Soviet Red Army. (if you're reffering to communist Partisans - they are the ones that won the Germans).

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[–] kamnik69 16 years ago

I see that there is a lot of views on the history......

I am glad that I made this topic even if I was canceled with critics.

It was 60 years ago.......let it go folks.... :)

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[–] pavlic 15 years ago

As after any war history is written by those who had win. That history isn`t always true.

Here is one good example of how the voices of those who think different are silenced:
http://de-construct.net/e-zine/?p=5294

And call this a Serbian propaganda but at least watch it:

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xox7TR11evI&feature=related
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEQpUlh51xU&feature=related
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPiAWbIbAyM&feature=related

If you don`t have time or patience to watch the whole documentary watch the second part. It`s about Trnopolje "death" camp, the photo that was shown all over the world in order to demonize Serbs.

Maybe you were the ones that aren`t allowed to see the other side of the story.

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[–] dzukelica 13 years ago

Igorimp put clear history of WW2 events here. It happened like that. Čestitke na znanju Igore, i ja sam imo nekih nejasnoća, posto sam znao da su se četnici borili protiv njemačke ali nisam znao kada i zašto su tačno dozivili taj preokret pa poceli da se bore zajedno sa njima.

za ostale brojače krvnih zrnaca, pušite kurac, morončine.

It`s like a jungle sometimes, it makes me wonder.. how i keep from goin` under. Ha-Ha.

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[–] antonioapi 12 years ago

English please?

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