MovieChat Forums > Lepa sela lepo gore (1997) Discussion > Were we supposed to be charmed?

Were we supposed to be charmed?

posted 12 years ago by antonioapi
17 replies | jump to latest

I watched this movie and the first scene during the war when you see Serbs in shooting frenzy, burning the village while unappropriate rock music is playing in the background... Was that supposed to make Serbs charming? Loveable folk who live for a good laugh and to burn down villages? I am sorry, but I felt this scene was so insulting to both good taste and inteligence I just wanted to hear other opinions.

I mean, lets imagine we have a WW2 movie where an SS division is burning down a village somewhere in the eastern front. We see people running, SS soldiers shooting in the air, burning down the houses and cars. And while we see that we get, say... Rock band Scorpions in the background playing "Hurricane". I wonder would people think that is charming?

Or would they feel that is unappropriate and insulting?

If I got something wrong, please correct me, I dont wish to insult or attack anyone, I just want to hear what others have to say.

[–] crowleynv 11 years ago

actually, there's lots of footage of German troops going through conquered, burned down villages, with gramophones playing in the back. not sure about the correct songs, since jazz and swing (rock and roll of the 30's and 40's) were seen as music of the inferior races by the nazi leaders, but it's obvious the tunes they played were frisky. the same goes for the Soviets, when they were pushing back the Germans. so, there's really no need to imagine anything, it has happened. (except for the Scorpions bit, of course).

as for the directors intent - how in earth did you get the idea they should be seen as charming? they're pillaging a village, i'm pretty sure they don't care if the music is rude (actually, is there some sort of music that is appropriate for that kind of situation?). not sure were you're from, or how much of the movie did you get, but the guys presented have a habit of looting. they're not professional troops, but conscripts. you have a thief who spent years doing robberies in Germany, a drug addict, a captain stuck somewhere in Tito's era, a teacher and a hillbilly (so to speak). they're all very lost, and caught out of context there. in fact, studies have shown very few people aren't feeling lost in a war zone, even if they are soldiers. and civil wars are ten times as bad as regular ones! the captain faces his best man on the other side of the tunnel, while the two best friends spend the movie trying to kill each other. the whole thing was surreal, and it was presented like that. the music playing in the background is typical Yugoslav rock and roll from the 80's, a mix of pop-rock and new wave which developed here, totally out of context with what was going on in the country. the music reflected an era of (almost) free speech, and the artist were creating very optimistic peaces. once they got a hold on what was about to happen, they started introducing serious messages to the cheerful sound, which was their trade mark. the best pieces of music here were created in the wake of the worst times since WW2.

so, much like the music was out of context with the times which gave birth to it, these guys were out of context with the times they were living in (much like much of the populace here). besides, the stuff was popular, and there's a good chance those pieces were played. the start of the civil war also sparked a divide which lasted for more than a decade, during which Serbs listened to Serbian bands and singers, Bosnians favored Bosnian artists, and the same thing was in Croatia. the band on the radio is from Belgrade, which makes it a great choice. the tunnel reflects the other side of the coing, when Velja starts singing an Index song, which is a firmly Yugoslav bend, and all sides relate to it. all sides share the same heritage, and have a hard time differentiating themselves from each other (this has not changed, btw). the rise of nationalism in music allowed for tacky and cheap artists to swarm the market with songs with a more "nationalistic" tone, and have since became known as "turbo folk". but the first scene correctly depicts the chaos and the confusion which reigned here.

last, the lyrics of the song dwell upon the chaos in the country, one to which everyone in the entire former Yugoslavia were trying to turn a blind eye. behind the cheerful tune lies the contemplation about just what the hell is going on. trust me, the song fits there perfectly.

[–] antonioapi 11 years ago

Seeing as how they are invaders, I find it hard to feel that they are "lost". Didnt the backstory established they were all their on their free will as volounteers?

[–] crowleynv 11 years ago

how are they invaders? some 40% of people living in Bosnia before the war were Serbs, and there was several hundred thousand of Serbs living in Croatia as well. there were no clear ethnic borders which could be drawn between the territories in which the nations of Yugoslavia lived in. one of the reasons it was such a bloody war is the fact that all sides claimed the rights on the same land. in their minds, the Serbs were defending their country against terrorists, while the Bosnians (in this movie) see them as invaders. if you've seen the movie, then you know that guys who were best friends before the war become enemies. that was pretty much the story of the war the entire ordeal allowed a group of politicians to gain a lot from the collapse of the country, but hostilities would have never emerged if the politicians hadn't decided to create such a climate. that's why they were "lost" - they believe they are doing their nation and their country a favor. they joined the ranks because they felt they were doing a good thing (like their fathers did when fighting the Germans in WW2), but they get disillusioned, especially at the end, when you get to see the true faces of their "friends" and "foes"....

[–] antonioapi 11 years ago

Yes, but Yugoslavian constitution claimed republic borders between Bosnia, Serbia and Croatia. While there were no borders inside yugoslavia itself, yugoslavian constituion guaranteed indeependence and land to any Yugoslavian federal republic upon democratic voting. Thus Bosnia, Slovenia and Croatia were independent by a democratic vote in early ninties as it was written in Yugoslavian constition.

It wasnt however approved by a Yugoslavian army officials (all of whom were Serbs, who launched an invasion from Yugoslavia (now only Serbia and montenegro) toward Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia. Yugoslav army (now composed only of Serbs and Montenegrians) attack those countries with the goal of forcefuly keeping them inside yugoslav borders. yugoslav army was then resisted by armed civilian population and police of Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia and assisted by Serb armed civilians as Yugoslav army itself was only Yugoslav in name and composed of only Serbs and Montenegrians.

Thus, I see them as destroyers of legal governments and countries, I see them as people who had armed marauders in three legal countries on account of invasion, conquering and pillaging. Yugoslavian constituion granted them the territory that is Serbia today as their own country, yet they decided they are not okay with Serbia or Bosnia, but rather they want it all for themselves.

Maybe I have a wrong view but I just cant see the war happening without the people like the characters in this movie. Also, we know that only two characters from the group are originaly from Bosnia, thus being Bosnian Serbs, all others coming from Serbia, again, as the invaders.

Its not important were they disilusioned, charmed or just driven wrong, its important that they atacked sovreign nations, burned villages, stole and basicly killed their own brothers with whom they just recently been in the same country.

How was war better then four friendly neighbouring sovereign states?

[–] crowleynv 11 years ago

first of all, you do realize there more than a million Serbs living in Croatia and Bosnia during the 80's? the borders which are drawn today, the borders which existed before the creation of Yugoslavia, and the borders which could have been drawn without conflict are 3 different things. the population was very mixed, and the divisions between the nations were being fueled for at least a decade before the whole thing escalated.

as far as the invasion of independent countries theory, it is a very dubious interpretation of what happened back then. the unilateral declaration of independence is considered an act of war (at least, that's the example the Union gave the world, when they decided to deny Confederacy their independence). Furthermore, the separation of the republics also left a lot of Serbian people in a very precarious position, since non of the newly founded countries was interested in protecting the interests of that people, while their native country had an obligation to protect their citizens who found themselves living abroad after some very dubious election results (both Bosnia and Macedonia had a lot of complaints to how the election process went). while the Serbian army and paramilitary troops were definitely involved in looting and pillaging, the same goes for the Croatian and Bosnian troops. you have the examples of Serbian houses being burned down and looted, just like the Bosnian and Croatian homes were.

don't forget that 200.000 Serbs were forced out of Croatia just during the "Oluja" operation. Serbian troops were marched out from their barracks in Slovenia, barefooted and naked, even before the fighting started. the Serbian army had to intervene. but the tensions were created by politicians, and they were the ones responsible for the conflict. most of the people in the movie fight for ideals and money. both of the motivations were provided by the leaders of the nations, who used the war to obtain personal wealth and power. Milosevic, Izetbegovic and Tudjman all managed to get quite a lot from the war. and they all had a part in creating war criminals, guys like Arkan, Naser Oric and the like. all sides had henchmen to do their dirty work, and those who didn't die in the war (like the guys in the movie) got a lot in return for their favors. the movie portrays an accurate picture of what happened - looting and pillaging and killing, by men who have little idea of what the bigger picture looks like, and how war really looks like...

[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] crowleynv 11 years ago

the men monitoring the elections claimed there was irregularities, not me. even so, in no type of law in the world can you get the interpretation that independence is gained as soon as the vote has passed! borders must be determined, the passing down of police, military and political power needs months (years?) to be done properly, and you have the distribution of embassies and diplomatic property abroad, as well as allocation of mining/exploitation rights and the (massive) foreign debt in the case of SFRJ. Yugoslav troops needed to be inside Yugoslav borders, and you need weeks to properly evacuate troops from their positions, there's no way it can be done in a day. that's even without determining what needs to stay and what goes with the troops.
nothing wrong with marching men barefooted and naked to the border during late winter? you really need to reexamine your ideas about what's right and wrong.
the comment about Oluja is just offensive - claiming that 200.000 men being forced from their homes in a single operation isn't (proper) ethnic cleansing is just an offense to all the people who lost their homes. not to mention that the Serbian troops and generals were never involved in such a large scale operation which was solely focused on civilian population, and you blatantly claim Serbs have more responsibility over what happened. a 100.000 Serbs in (modern) Croatia is a disgrace after the near half a million who lived on the same territory before the war started. so far your comments have been purely antiserbian, and i'll probably restrain from further comments if you continue to be so bias and negative towards the Serbs as a whole. are you really saying that Croats and Muslims burning Serbian houses is ok? and that it wasn't systematic? just look at the demographics before and after the war, and you'll see how widespread ethnic cleansing was during the war. not to mention that there's still 50.000 Serbs waiting to return to their homes in Croatia, but the Croatian authorities are still to deal with the issue. not systematic my ass.
the whole war was filled with atrocities committed by all sides, and if you really think the Serbs are the only ones to blame, you're just as narrow-minded as the men who were pulling the blades and firing the guns.
as for the Kosovo part, the Serbian population in that area fell by almost 400.000 between 1945 and 1995, so i really don't know where you got the nonsense about the Serbs being forcefully sent to Kosovo.
last, but not least, no Serbian generals have so far been found guilty in Hague, with a sentence which stood after the appeal. Just as important, there have been many evidence and witnesses claiming that the Srebrenica incident was orchestrated by Bosnian authorities (there is a very good two-part Swedish documentary on this on youtube, might look it up). this is not to incite further debate on an off-topic subject, just to tell you to maybe reconsider some of your claims, especially with the level of certainty you have so far shown.
as far as the real topic, you have really shown little interest to the fact i properly explained the reasons for the music in the movie, song by song. it is a masterpiece, do try and understand it, and what it represents. the movie hasn't portrayed anything that didn't happen, and it didn't bother taking sides. neither should you ;)

[–] antonioapi 11 years ago

Can I get some background on those "irragularities"? I never heard of those.

If 200 000 were being forced out of their homes, how come at the end of Operation Storm more then 100 000 Serbs remained in Croatia? I have even heard stories of Serbs serving in Croatian army, fighting against Yugoslav Army and paramilitary.

That way I cant see them being "forced" as much as them being "scared off". Operation Storm was focused on elimination of enemy army, civilians were unavoidable casulties.

Ratko Mladic killed 8000 people in three days in Bosnia. East of Croatia was subjected to systematic ethnic cleansing that wasnt focused on forcing people out of their homes, but rather killing them and plundering their possesions.

I have a problem being non-biased when I read about Serbian army in Croatia, Serbian army in bosnia, serbian army in kosovo and serbian army in Slovenia. Its basicly Serbia against everyone and I never heard Bosnians or Croats crossing borders armed and ready to attack Serbian soil.

I belive had Serbs not started the damn war, nobody would committ heinous crimes. Had Serbs accapted yugoslavian constitution (as they claimed they would) war wouldnt happen. I see Serbs as a people who see themselves as "superior" to their neighbours and thus always lay claim on their neighbour territories.

I am sorry, but I just cant help it. I simply fail to see what Croats and Bosnians did that is as bad as what Serbs did.

[–] crowleynv 11 years ago

you do realize that the fact that 100000 Serbs still remained in Croatia doesn't deny the possibility of 200000 of them were forced out? it was virtually impossible to expel or kill all the 400-500000 Serbs, especially with the Serbian army holding the Serbian populated territory. Oluja was ethnic cleansing, you still have people who want to return to their homes, property that the Croatian government refuses to return to the Serbian population and thousands of eye-witness accounts, as well as confirmed radio-communication and paper documents. what more do you want?? and, no, Oluja wasn't focused on military troops, it was focused on civilians. the Croats were more than happy to let the UN forces deal with the Serbian troops, while they focused on creating an ethnically clean country. if you look at the demographics today, you'll see that Croatia has about 10% of people who are of other nationalities, while the number is close to 20% in Serbia, so do the math about who did the cleaning bit. i've not heard the stories about Serbs fighting for Croatia, and if you knew anything about Croatian political ideas at the time i seriously doubt you'd say such a thing. It was a very popular idea to only have Croats in Croatia, while the others were intruders.
Ratko Mladic didn't kill anyone. What he ordered or didn't order is yet to be decided, as he is still on trial. the 7000 dead in Srebrenica is a heavily debated number, as there is more than half of the supposed bodies which were never identified nor even found (since most of the missing are accounted as dead). you really shouldn't say that the Serbs were scared away from Croatia, since most of the people missing from Srebrenica were fleeing the city before the Serbian troops even approached it, so you're arguing against your own stance. as for the people who did die there, many of them were part of the Bosnian paramilitary troops and died with firearms in hand. there are also eyewitness claiming that some of the people who died there were eliminated by the Bosnian authorities, in order to eliminate the political opposition (you have a man claiming that in the Swedish documentary i mentioned to you, and a Bosnian military official said so a few days ago in Hague). with all this in mind you should really restrain from claiming any of the rumors you heard as facts until you've actually done some research about it.
the ethnic cleansing started in Bosnia and Croatia, and the Serbian army had to intervene. if you tried to gain some insight, you'd know there's still several Croatian generals on trial for crimes committed against Bosnian population, and some Bosnian commanders are on trials for crimes against both sides. to all this you can add the processes against Croatian commanders for crimes committed against the Serbian civilians. don't forget people like Naser Oric, who was the Bosnian commander in Srebrenica and a hardcore mob boss, who confiscated all aid packages sent by the Red Cross and then sold them to his own people, and gained tremendous wealth. then there is all the crimes committed in Kravice, where the Bosnians killed some 500 Serbian civilians and directly provoked the attack on Srebrenica (some claim this was done in purpose, in order to force the UN to intervene - go find the Bosnian troops who claim they were present when their political leaders planned it all out). oh, and I forgot the Mujahideen who were trained and fought in Bosnia, basically killing everyone but hardcore muslims. if all this, Oluja, and dozens of other similar examples aren't as bad as what the Serbs are accused of then you really are just as bigoted as the people who did the killing.
the Croatian and Bosnian troops never crossed the border (or where the border is today, to be precise, since all the fighting was done in the disputed territories) because they never had a proper regular army and they had no chance of getting support from the local populace, since Vojvodina and Macva very mostly inhabited by Serbs (and no Croats or Bosnians), unlike the very mixed demographics in Sarajevo, Vukovar, Srebrenica and many similar places. if you look at the demographics today, 20 years after the war, there is still some 400000 Serbs living in Republika Srpska (which is the Eastern part of Bosnia) and Eastern Croatia, which are the territories the Serbian army occupied. this is all after the 300000 refugees now living across Serbia, plus the tens of thousands immigrants (of all nationalities) who fled for the US, Australia, Austria and Canada... if you really think that any war is so black and white the way you represent it, than you have a very narrow and naive point of view. I hope you'll get a better understanding of the world some day...
P.S. Serbian army in Kosovo? Kosovo has been an integral part of Serbia since the end of WW1. and it was inhabited by Serbs since the X century. there's a dozen of monasteries there, all built by Serbian medieval rulers, which are protected by UNESCO. the Albanian majority was not a majority until the end of WW2, and it has been a hot-spot for drug trafficking and white slavery for the last 20 years. Kosovo and Bosnia were 2 of the biggest flops in terms of dealing with sensitive demographics by the UN in the last 20-30 years. only the Palestinians could claim to be a part of such a dreadful project.

[–] antonioapi 11 years ago

So you are claiming Croats and bosnians started to kill Serbs before the war and Serbs came to Bosnia, Croatia and Slovenia to save them? Really? You really have the balls to claim that? Are you a Serb by any chance?

I am not saying Croats and Bosnians didnt do war crimes, heck Allies in WW2 made war crimes. I am just saying that without Serbian army in Croatia and Bosnia, there wouldnt be crimes of any kind.

Why force 200 000 out and leave 100 000? 300 000 or heck 500 000 still dont make a majority in Croatia. So what is the point of forcing 200 000 out? You dont achive nothing by that. As far as I know Operation Storm ended the war, thuse forcing the Serbian army and milita out of Croatia and a large part of Bosnia. So there werent any Serb soldiers left by the end of the Operation. So why not just ethnicly cleanse all Serbs if that was the point? Can you answer me that? Why not force every last one out? If they managed to force 200 000 what could stope them from doing the same thing on every last one? Ofcourse except the little fact that forcing serbs out was never the original idea.

You just defended Ratko Mladic. You defended a crazed maniac who killed thousands and whose own daughter killed herself when faced with the reality of whom her father was. You are defending a man who openly mocked the victims of war and their families in the god damn courtroom. Are you mental? 7000 is a heavily debated number? No 8000 is a current number, but with the excavations on the site still in progress that number in increasing...

Where exactly did UN enter the combat against Serbs? I have never heard such a claim. I know NATO fought serbs in 1999 but that was four years after the war in Bosnia and Croatia ended.

If Bosnians were so horibble, killing all christians and non-muslims and etc... WHY THE HELL DID THEY FOUGHT ALONGSIDE CROATS AT THE START AND THE END OF THE WAR???

I am not saying Croats and Muslims didnt do their share of war crimes, I am just saying that their war crimes are less then 10% of all the war crimes comitted during the war in Bosnia and Croatia.

So becuse Croatia has 10% of other nationalites that means in was ethnicly cleansed? I guess Croats also cleansed Slovenes, Bosnians, Germans, Albanians, etc? Right? Are you aware of the diffrence in population with Croatia and Serbia? The immigrants are universaly attracted to larger countries and Serbia is larger then Croatia. Are you aware that the Croatia has the largest Jewish community in the Balkans?

[–] crowleynv 11 years ago

good god, i almost forgot how people can be narrow minded. the Slovenians marched out the Serb soldiers in the middle of the winter, barefooted and naked, before any conflict even started. that's a violation of human rights. i mentioned this 3 times, and you ignore it. there was violence on football matches, Serb homes being attacked, and loads of other crap that is bound to happen when a civil war is about to take place. Yugoslav army was inside the national borders. the borders which you see today were determined in 1995, and were very much different from the ones which were being draw out in 1991. go check some facts instead of just arguing on the basis on hear-say. Srebrenica was supposed to be deep inside Serbian territory, since it was an isolated enclave of Muslims, surrounded by Serb villages. today there is no Serb village west of Srebrenica. how do you suppose that happened?
Hitler tried to exterminate the Jews, but he missed out on a couple of million in Europe alone, that must mean (according to your logic) that there was no genocide, eh? i already told you, the Croats expelled the Serbs where they could, Yugoslav army still held places like Vukovar and Sarajevo, while Baranja had a huge Serbian population and was also partially under control by the Yugoslav troops. that means the Croats never had a chance of starting the ethnic cleaning there. No ethnic cleansing is 100% effective, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Hell, if we'd go by your reasoning, than the Serbs never did any such crime, since the Serbian enclaves are heavily mixed with Muslim and Croatian population. When the operation was over the UN created a pacified zone, in which only the UN troops carried arms. they stopped the fighting, not the engaged sides by themselves. US and UN bombers and airforce did regular raids over the Serbian positions, which is one of the reasons why the Serbian political leadership was forced into peace. there were UN soldiers in Sarajevo (who actually report how the Bosnian troops allowed the sniper fire on the streets to create good footage for the foreign TV crews), UN soldiers in Srebrenica, who allowed arms shipments to Bosnian paramilitaries in a demilitarized zone, which led to the escalation of conflict there, UN troops later entered Vukovar and Sarajevo... how do you think the war ended (and why are there still Serbs in those places)?? the UN is still a major factor in Bosnia... you might have known all this if you actually tried to inform yourself.
as for Ratko Mladic, he is still on trial. the numbers in Srebrenica are not growing, since the current excavations have only discovered about 2500-3000 bodies. also, some of the people who were listed as killed there later popped up in Holland and Austria. again, if you actually followed the process you'd know this. also, watching some of the documentaries i mentioned wouldn't kill you, you know? Sweden is a neutral country to say the least, and what their journalists (with the help of some former Bosnian soldiers) uncovered sheds a whole new light on what happened there. I doubt Ratko Mladic was a crazed maniac, you have the footage from Hague in which the Muslim refugees witnesses how he made sure they got proper treatment in the refugee camps. again, go look it up, instead of just spewing hate.
as for the Mujahideen bit and Naser Oric, it is all well documented, so you might as well look that up to, there's plenty of material. Naser Oric is/was prosecuted by the Bosnian government, because he's involvement in organized crime. as for the Mujahideen, well, the US classifies Bosnia as a major breeding ground for terrorists, and hardcore Muslim extremists have found that place to be haven for their communities. the US files also provide enough material about the involvement of Mujahideen in the civil war in Bosnia, and their later involvement in Afghanistan.
where did you get the bit about the proportion of Bosnian vs Croatian vs Serbian war crimes? another hear-say, i'm guessing. Since so many of the man involved are still on trial, and so many dubious calls are being made by the Hague court, as well as the fact the official statistics are still far from complete, it was a shot-in-the-dark attempt made by someone who obviously hates Serbs for some reason. Croats and Bosnians never fought alongside each other in that war, they killed each other, and those people are also on trial. just look up places like Brcko, or the failed attempt of Croatian Republic of Herzeg-Bosnia.
as for the Croatian cleansing - first of all there was no German or Albanian populace there. the Serbs did constitute a major minority group, which would account for at least 10-12% of the population before the war. Muslims would probably be around 6-7%. if you bothered to look up Croatia and you know how it looks like on the map, than you must realize that a country like that is bound to encompass a wast multitude of nationalities, due to it's rather unique geographic appearance. Serbia, on the other hand, has a much more conventional look, and it's economic climate is not really gonna attract immigrants (immigrants are universally attracted to a stable political climate and a solid economy, which can provide jobs. the size of the country has nothing to do with it. that's why the UK or France will have about 10 times more immigrants than Russia, for example), and yet Serbia fosters a large population of minorities. Bosnia is heavily mixed too. the fact Croatia, which has the largest shore, the longest borders and covers such a multitude of areas, and yet has by far the smallest number of minorities, must mean something, especially when you take into account how the migration in the area functioned in the 2 centuries before the war. and the simple demographics images which war created during the 60's and 70's...
i'm sorry if any Serbs did you any harm. and i'm sorry to see that you can hate an entire nation for what a few individuals did. but it was an awful, bloody war. and everyone got their hands dirty. really bad. there were no victims in the national sense. the people who died were victims to a policy of hate fueled by the political leaders of all 3 countries. the individuals are the victims. the thousands who died, or lost their homes. their nationality has nothing to do with it. it was all about power and profit. just look up how the big 3 (Milosevic, Tudjman and Izetbegovic) fared after the war. immense power and wealth gained by the people running the show. look up how those countries function today. the national question was (and still is) an easy escape from the failed economic policies the SFRY implemented. instead of dealing with a broken down country, the people involved decided to create miniature kingdoms for themselves. Cigarettes, alcohol, gas, guns and drugs were smuggled across the war-torn lands, and the biggest and best deals were made by the political leaders of these countries. and the blood was being spilled across Bosnia and Croatia, by all 3 sides. Serbs were an integral part of those communities. look up the demographics before the war, and the borders today. you'll see several hundred thousand Serbs on the wrong side of the line. it's the same with Bosnians and Croats. they were all part of what's today considered Bosnia and Croatia, respectively.
i'm not going to argue with you anymore. you asked the purpose of the song in that particular place in the movie. i gave you the answer. the movie is a masterpiece. just try to see it without any prejudice. the Serbs still do awful things. but so do the others. and, in the end, they all die a very sad death...
goodbye

[–] vojkan087 11 years ago

You should all take a really deep breath.Since most of everything written here is wrong, and belongs to Serb,Croat or Muslims propaganda of the 90's.

The problem of the ex Yugoslavia conflict lays mostly in nationalistic leaders, media propaganda in pre digital era - in other words media darkness.

Case no1. Serbs.
After Milosevic the nationalist/communist leader emerged as the president of Serbia, he and his puppet media started egniting Serb nationalism by making Serbs FEEL ENDANGERED in whole Yugoslavia. Serbs were systematically fed the story of ressurecting Nazism in Croatia, the Ustashe movement who killed a lot of Serbs in WWII. Also he made sure Serbs never forget the medieval struggle with Muslims, and Muslim crimes in their Nazi episode in WWII. He wanted the war, he was militant. He used media, and past. He counted on the story of protecting the unity of Yugoslavia, and the militant nature of federal generals who needed the conflict to come close to WWII era fathers. His media never showed severe anti Milosevic and anti war protests in Belgrade,Serb capital.The result was Serbs in Croatia trully felt endangered. And with Milosevic carefully placing nationalists in important positions throughtout Croatian cities with Serb majority, people were quick to rise to arms to protect themselves against Croat police(Tudjmans planned incidents with his paramilitary only gave them reason), same was in Bosnia. Serbs from Serbia at least at the outbreak of the war bought the story of Croat opression.Many Serbs from Serbia thought Croats were Ustashe symphatizers, and that they were going to defend the poor Serb civilian population from slaughter and repeated history- since that was the only thing they were fed with. Croat nationalistic politicians, and paramilitary only prooved their point..But it was not so black in reality. Of course, Serbs would never realize that...not for years.

Case no2.Croats
When Croat ultra nationalist leader Tudjman came to power as the president of Croatia, he decided to take the shortcut to independence.He intentionally made Serb minority feal endangered by changing the constitution, adopting former Nazi symbols,WWII Nazi era flag and past rethorics..orchestrating incidents where Serbs were attacked. Knowing full well Milosevic is preparing Serbs for war as well, and that it won't take much to egnite the people. He wanted, he needed war..he would do anything to go down in history as the first president of independent Croatia- before Croats got the grip of who he is really. Croats were systematically fed the story of Serb imperialists who want to conquer whole Yugoslavia in ther killing spree, goal being the mythical 'Great Serbia', and egnited Croat nationalism by claming there is no other way for Croat independence than war.-killing all anti war politicians and military/police figures who dared to speak in the meantime (the Reihl Kir case).And illegaly importing weapons through Hungary - (the Martin Spegelj case.)years before the war started. Croats were also fed the story of Serb rebels(the above who rose to arms feeling engangered)rising against Croatia,so they now, feeling endangered also rose to arms - already prepared by Tudjmans men. Paramilitary crooks in Serbia, like Arkan,Seselj,actually only a fragment of Serb/Yugoslavian army..only made Tudjman's point more valid by nationalistic statements.Propaganda did it's job and Croats actually thought they are defending themselves from an invasion...there was no such invasion, no such plan, but it was impossible to explain once they saw Serbs in their country(those very Serbs who believed they had come to aid the tortured people, in fact people who became tortured only once they came)..Croats didn't do any of those large scale massacers Serbs came to fight against, and didn't understand when Serbs clamied they have 'liberated' towns...they only saw them as invaders who came to conquer - which was false...But many Croats never realized that, many still don't. Since, I have to admit, Serb media evolved much more than Croat in the last 20years.

Case no.3
With vast support of the East. Muslim extremist leader Alija(Bin Laden's personal friend) worked toward making the first fully Islamic state in the Europe.Taking advantage of the situation and already ongoing war between Serbs and Croats, he,as well as Milosevic and Tudjman (who initially had the agerement to split Bosnia,giving Muslims a big 0) had put down the fire with gasoline. Bosnia was a powder keg,with three almost equal minorities sharing every street,every town...and with well placed incidents done by his extremist supporters(the Serb wedding case) and already paranoid Serb minority, it exploded..why?Because neither Milosevic,Tudjman or Alija wanted to stop that.They all needed it,and wanted it...

BTW, Croats and Muslims also fought a war against each other, they became allies later, with US help - read ultimatum.

What was left,was shattered country, shattered generations,shattered economy...and labels.

In other word, THE MASSACRE OF MISGUIDED NATIONS.

NONE WERE DEFENDERS,ALL WERE ATTACKERS.

Why? Propaganda...that's why.The war is the ultimate testimony of how well placed political propaganda combined with media darkness and controlled information and misuse of it, influence minds of people. - and obviously still do, since there are people here who speak that very propaganda, on all sides.

BTW

There are excellent documentaries on Vukovar (''Vukovar- the last cut''-Serb but highly critical of Serbs), on Srebrenica("Srebrenica: A Town Betrayed" - Dutch), the BBC's Death of Yougoslavia...showing who and why started the war, and who and why sacrified those cities, and how, in case of Srebernica that was just a propaganda game,and why do defenders of Srebrenica still claim they were misused for political game of Alija aka. giving Bil Clinton the argument to get involved in Bosnia.

I suggest forgetting about Srebrenica,Vukovar or operation Oluja if you trully want a neutral and clear picture of the conflict.

As soon as you abandon the black/white picture of the conflict you will be close to understanding it.

Because there is a counter massacre for every massacre done in that war...For every Mladic there is Naser Oric, for every Arkan there is some Spegelj,and that leads nowhere...

Also, 10%...no. around 60% even 70% believe it or not.I would almost put a 1/3 to each side. Muslims doing the most, but also loosing the most civilian people - thanks to the Eastern mujaheddin fighters mostly. Serbs killing most people in uncontrolled artillery attacks,such as Vukovar, and Croatians doing the least bit,since they were involved in the war for the shortest time - their biggest crime is forcing hundreds of thousands Serbs out of Croatia in Oluja, though.

[–] vojkan087 11 years ago

Don't fall into a propagandic trap,as you already did.

There weren't 8000 male inhabitants in Srebrenica,including Serbs, even before the war.(btw only men were killed in Srebrenica in '95,so it doesnt constitute as genocide,even if there was 15000 dead).I already mentioned the great documentary on that topic.

Ethnic cleansing, and genocide are two words that are heard way too much in this conflict to the point it lost all sense.

The only trully large scale ethnic cleansing manuver was operation Storm heavily condemned as such even by Hague.Don't let me remind you about how many judges condemned Croat general who led the operation.

Serbs in Croatia in 1991. 581.663 or 12,2%.
Serbs in Croatia in 2001. 186.633 or 4,4%

Croats in Serbia in 1991. 105.406 (1,08%)
Croats in Serbia in 2002: (not including Kosovo) 70.602 (0,94%)

These are results of nationalistic Croat politics.(we can show Serb or Muslim nationalism in other examples) but this is textbook ethnic cleansing.

This is not to say or take any side. But there has to be the truth, and truth is, no matter how hard you tried you can't find a good side in this war.Which is what you are trying to do.

You have a problem being non biased because you choose not to be non biased.

There wasn't Serb but Federal Army in Slovenia.
There wasn't Serb but Federal Army in Croatia,at least at the outbreak of the war.
by the time of Bosnia conflict Federal Army became mostly,but not entirely Serb.

Kosovo conflict in whole other conflict, which deals with insurgency.This conflict in ex Yugoslavia was civil war.

The NATO bombing of Serbia in 1999 was immediately labeled illegal by UN.

What about Croat and Bosnian war in 1992-1994? There were no Serbs or Serb side in it....can you get the picture now.If it was all Serbs' fault, why would Croats fight Muslims for two years.

Also, if Serbs started the war as you say, why did Croat government arm themselves years before the conflict, and why would Josip Boljkovac in this interveiw,he was Croat police minister at the time, claim Croat president, known pro fashist Tudjman intentionally provoked the war and Federal Army by orchestrating incidents against Serb population.
http://de-construct.net/e-zine/?p=4869

Why would even BBC claim Tudjman intentionally egnited the hostilities that led to the war. Croat president killed all anti war figures in his government, why? He adopted Nazi Croat flag from WWII?Why?He changed constitution degrading the position of minorities(biggest of which is Serbs)?Why?

You have this distorted, Hollywoodish picture of reality in 1990's that prevents you from being fair and truthfull.

I suggest you forget about 90's propaganda stories and try to grasp the whole story.

[–] Imdb11168 11 years ago

As an Indian who is not emotionally involved – I’m trying to figure out this conflict by putting forward loosely connected points.

I never once believed that the Serbs were the monsters they were made out to be. Because a victor is not necessarily and aggressor and the loser is not necessarily innocent.

I was also aware that the Croats had committed massacres against Serbs earlier and maybe they are the original aggressors. As for Muslims, they are known to conflict with everyone, everytime, so I can not build up sympathy for the Bosnians either, despite the fact that they suffered the most.

Vokjan seems to be a clever guy, basically he’s arguing the Serb cause, but trying to look neutral and documentary oriented by blaming Serbs as well.

It all sounds like this to an outsider like me.

All 3 were wrong, and all 3 had very serious reasons to conflict and hate each other, unfortunately such things happen. We are all lesser human beings.

Serbia commited the greatest crimes, not because they were worse human beings, but because they won. But then to some extant the West nuetralized Serbia.

I hope the West can still interfere here, and bring permanent peace to this region. I’ve seen so much of conflict in India, and I’ve noticed that 99 % of the people who die are the poor, the innocent, or the brainwashed Soldiers.

Darkness lies an inch ahead

[–] vojkan087 11 years ago

Vojkan is not arguing Serb case, even though he is a Serb. Why? Because it was the militant agenda of Serb president Milosevic that holds great responsibility for what happened in 1990's.

My family, friends, neighbours and millions of other Serbs worked a full decade to bring down this communist bastard dictator down from power, succeding in famous riots in 2001, October 5th.So I know full well what he and his politics did to Serbs, and to other ethnic groups in Yugoslavia. And how he is directly responsible for many military actions, and war itself...but he would hot have been able to start a war if there wasn't others who wanted it, maybe even more than he did. They just outsmarted him...

So I will be the last person on the face of the Earth to defend Milosevic's government.

Secondly - Serbs didn't win. I can't say anybody won, but Croats were the closest to ther wanted goal. Ethnically clean independent Croatia. Their victims were fewest in number, and their country was involved in war for the shortest time (compared to Bosnia.) And they received full support from West. It was so great that western media suddenly forgot all the Croat massacres, all atrocities, and the fact they ignited the conflict...and portrayed them as freedom fighters??? against invader - which never existed. Also they received open military support from NATO.

Serbs are starting to be neutralized only in the last couple of years, when some documents and agendas of Clinton administration, as well as the crimes of Clinton allies (Croats and Muslims) began to see light. Before that Serbs were Nazi Germans of Europe (even though Croats were actually ruled by right wing Nazi supporters in 1991. paradoxically).

So agreeing with the fact only poor and inocent pay for political games, I have to say I can't argue anyone's case here. I was against that war always, and couldn't see a good side. I just want true facts to be told, and true % of responsibility shared.

Serbs were the most agressive
Croats the most sinister
And Muslims...well, they are always the same.a little bit of both...

[–] CroTony 10 years ago

Well, without any political or historic aspect... Yeah, I do think they kinda played into the whole "charming rogues" kinda thing. Honestly, even without that Serbian group just wasnt really likeable (expect professor, but only because he seemed to be the only normal guy without malice).

[–] ric-euteneuer-500-72550 10 years ago

It was irony. The song "Igra Rokenrol, Cela Jugoslavija" (Play rock and roll, all of Yugoslavia) is a song about Yugoslavia as a concept going 'down the pan'

www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfuJ-Q8FEsU

So the wrecking and destruction that accompanied the death of the country. So, no, you're not supposed to be charmed at all.

If you think the film is pro or anti-Serb (or pro or anti-Bosnian), then you've kind of missed the point of the film - which was that there are no rights or wrongs in war, and that ultimately, it destroys everything.