So the answer is no basically.
Actually the answer was yes, within reason.
There was no blanket statement, and even if there had been it would still be immaterial to my filmography or lack there of, and still makes your statement hypocritical.
The blanket statement was this:
and is actually more adult than other non-Disney animated films that are viewed as being aimed at an older audience
How is the above not a blanket statement? You are calling a film better at something than a whole group of films. The reason I bring up what animated films you have or haven't seen because I believe you need strong backing to make these kinds of statements.
The word “pinnacle” was never used, nor any equivalent.
It didn't have to, it was implied. But if I'm completely wrong about that, I apologize.
I don’t understand your fixation with being impressive. I was trying to make a point using another reference for comparison. I wasn’t trying to impress anyone, nor would I expect anyone to be impressed by use of said reference.
My only point was more references are needed to make your point work better. You that Hunchback can go up against all non-Disney but only brought up one director to represent non-Disney.
Can you give an example of another Disney animated film that deals with mature themes in a deeper way, and how it does this more successfully than Hunchback?
Perhaps outright mature themes wasn't the right use of words, we're talking about Disney after all. However, three films off the top of my head stand out for standing up very well to a deeper analysis. First is Pinocchio with it's outstanding metaphorical representations of morality and real world temptations. Second would be Bambi, which isn't highly reflective of humans necessarily, but is the perfect showcase nature at it's most beautiful, cruel, and realistic. The last would be The Little Mermaid and I know I'll catch some flack for bringing it up. However, this film actually is a brilliant piece dealing with prejudice, anti authority, and even identity.
So which equivalently adult themes have been used in Miyazaki films to greater effectiveness?
I'll need you to be more specific as I don't feel like breaking down every Miyazaki film. I would also say that mature execution is more of his specialty than actual hard adult themes. Off the top of my head, Nausicaa, Castle in the Sky, Princess Mononoke, and The Wind Rises would have the most outright adult themes, even with those first two featuring a lot of adventure aspects as well. Now if at anytime you'd like to go beyond Miyazaki, the options would really start to open up.
"If life is getting you down and needs uplifting, then please come dance with me!"
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ira_gaines
8 years ago
You are calling a film better at something than a whole group of films
I don’t know why you would have read it that way. I was speaking to the claim I’ve seen that this film is overly “Disneyfied”. I pointed out that not only is it more mature than other Disney films that are generally perceived to be aimed at a younger audience, but it’s also more mature than some other animated films that are viewed as being aimed at a broader audience. That’s it.
Perhaps outright mature themes wasn't the right use of words, we're talking about Disney after all. However, three films off the top of my head stand out for standing up very well to a deeper analysis.
The maturity of the themes was the whole centre of my argument though. I never said all other Disney films were totally shallow.
I would also say that mature execution is more of his specialty than actual hard adult themes.
As I said, the themes were my main point. Maturity of “execution” is a much more subjective and technical issue and wasn’t relevant to my overall point. I wouldn’t even compare (any) Disney films with Miyzaki films in execution anyway, because the former are musicals, and the later generally have a much longer running time.
Off the top of my head, Nausicaa, Castle in the Sky, Princess Mononoke, and The Wind Rises would have the most outright adult themes, even with those first two featuring a lot of adventure aspects as well.
Haven’t seen The Wind Rises. What themes would you say those other films deal with?
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TutuAnimationPrincess
8 years ago
I don’t know why you would have read it that way. I was speaking to the claim I’ve seen that this film is overly “Disneyfied”. I pointed out that not only is it more mature than other Disney films that are generally perceived to be aimed at a younger audience, but it’s also more mature than some other animated films that are viewed as being aimed at a broader audience. That’s it.
I apologize if I've misunderstood then. Just the same, I am on the side that the film is rather Disneyfied as you say. I also stand by my previous notion that anything interesting the film tries to do is surface level only and wouldn't be praised if this wasn't a Disney film. I also disagree with this film standing up to other mature films since any maturity it does have is largely cancelled out by silliness and weak writing.
The maturity of the themes was the whole centre of my argument though. I never said all other Disney films were totally shallow.
Yes, I was more speaking from my perspective. I don't necessarily think Disney films are shallow in general, just that they don't usually have themes that run deep. I already gave examples of films I think do hold that criteria, but I enjoy many Disney films that don't.
As I said, the themes were my main point. Maturity of “execution” is a much more subjective and technical issue and wasn’t relevant to my overall point. I wouldn’t even compare (any) Disney films with Miyzaki films in execution anyway, because the former are musicals, and the later generally have a much longer running time.
Execution is always important because otherwise it doesn't matter what a film is trying to do in the first place. I understand that Ghibli and Disney films are handled differently, but I believe they can still be compared by looking at their individual purposes, the successes of their execution, and of course things like story telling and characters if applicable. And just a minor nitpick, not all Disney films are musicals.
Haven’t seen The Wind Rises. What themes would you say those other films deal with?
That is a tough question to answer actually if only because all three films are the type where different people will get different things out of them. As they are all your typical Miyazaki epics, they do share some common themes. Miyazaki films are well known in their dealings with things like war, culture, environmentalism, morality, and even a touch of feminism, the positive kind. The thing about something like HoND is that, whether you like the film or not, it's pretty obvious with the ideas it's going with and doesn't leave much to interpretation. I realize it's a personal preference, but I like films that can give you connections and meanings that the film may not have even intended.
Edit: If our conversation has ended, I would just like to thank you. This was the funnest talk I've had on these boards in a while.
"If life is getting you down and needs uplifting, then please come dance with me!"
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ira_gaines
8 years ago
I also disagree with this film standing up to other mature films since any maturity it does have is largely cancelled out by silliness and weak writing.
In contrast to which other animated films?
And just a minor nitpick, not all Disney films are musicals.
I’ve never watched a Disney animated film that wasn’t. Nor have I watched a Miyazaki film that was.
That is a tough question to answer actually if only because all three films are the type where different people will get different things out of them. As they are all your typical Miyazaki epics, they do share some common themes. Miyazaki films are well known in their dealings with things like war, culture, environmentalism, morality, and even a touch of feminism, the positive kind. The thing about something like HoND is that, whether you like the film or not, it's pretty obvious with the ideas it's going with and doesn't leave much to interpretation.
The problem with this comparison though is that it can end up being an “emperors clothes” situation. Themes should just flow from the conflicts of the narrative if they’re well written. Films shouldn’t be dramatically engaging just on a deeper level ie if you think about them really hard. Those themes you’ve listed are really vague and in my opinion are largely just furniture in those films. They fill up the background, but they’re not presented in a thought provoking way. They don’t make me feel uncomfortable or tense, like some parts of HoND do. The only time I’ve felt tense during a Miyazaki film was when it looks like the little sister in Totoro might have died. That’s just a minor plot point though. The film wasn’t actually about death or lost children on a thematic level.
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TutuAnimationPrincess
8 years ago
In contrast to which other animated films?
You want a list? My comment was meant to be more generalized for mature animated films in general, just in the same way you found Hunchback more mature than non-Disney films in general.
I’ve never watched a Disney animated film that wasn’t. Nor have I watched a Miyazaki film that was.
The fact that Miyazaki hasn't made a musical is irrelevant to this conversation. As for Disney films, off the top of my head the following are not musicals:
Bambi (no character in it sings)
The Rescuers and it's sequel
The Black Cauldron
The Great Mouse Detective ( the villain has a song, but that's it)
Pretty much every Disney film from 2000 to 2008
Wreck-It Ralph
Big Hero 6
The problem with this comparison though is that it can end up being an “emperors clothes” situation. Themes should just flow from the conflicts of the narrative if they’re well written. Films shouldn’t be dramatically engaging just on a deeper level ie if you think about them really hard. Those themes you’ve listed are really vague and in my opinion are largely just furniture in those films. They fill up the background, but they’re not presented in a thought provoking way. They don’t make me feel uncomfortable or tense, like some parts of HoND do. The only time I’ve felt tense during a Miyazaki film was when it looks like the little sister in Totoro might have died. That’s just a minor plot point though. The film wasn’t actually about death or lost children on a thematic level.
This response sounds like a difference in both perspective and preferences. In that case, there can be no winner in that conversation since all people react differently. I have no problem with movies that put things front and center as long as it's handled well. Still, as I said, I love things even more when things are not so obvious and you can get something unique out of them. I get quite a bit out of films like Nausicaa and Kiki's Delivery Service but it's fine if you don't. You get a lot out of Hunchback of Notre Dame and it's fine that I don't. I do think the themes in the films I mentioned are more than just "furniture" as you put it though, I often find the deepest movies are the ones that do it on the most subtle levels. But once again, that may just be preference and that's okay as I said before.
"If life is getting you down and needs uplifting, then please come dance with me!"
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ira_gaines
8 years ago
I have no problem with movies that put things front and center as long as it's handled well. Still, as I said, I love things even more when things are not so obvious and you can get something unique out of them. I get quite a bit out of films like Nausicaa and Kiki's Delivery Service but it's fine if you don't. You get a lot out of Hunchback of Notre Dame and it's fine that I don't.
The two things aren't mutually exclusive though. You can have very surface level themes at play while still leaving a lot of ambiguity that is open to individual interpretations. There are plenty of films that have both. Ultimately though, they're supposed to be dramatically effective and you can't do that without that strong surface level of conflict. For example,
Princess Mononoke appears to have a lot of environmental subtext but what questions is it really asking? What are the opposing viewpoints being presented through the narrative? Lady Eboshi is clearly pro-industrialisation. Is Prince Ashitaka anti-industrialisation? I don't know. This is what I mean when I say the themes are like furniture. Ashitaka and San are ostensibly the two main characters of the story but they never even have an exchange where these issues are explored. I don't mean in some kind of overt philosophical way, just naturally through the dialogue.
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TutuAnimationPrincess
8 years ago
Yes I realize the two aren't mutually exclusive, I never meant to imply that they were. I think this conversation is reaching it's end as we're getting very close to a "my movie is better than yours" discussion. I know I won't convince you or make you understand what I see in certain Miyazaki films. Just the same, you won't convince me that HoND has anything interesting to say about the themes it barely brings up. Eventually you have to just agree to disagree and call it a day. Once again, thanks for the conversation, it was quite fun.
"If life is getting you down and needs uplifting, then please come dance with me!"
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