Che Guevara? - Evita (1997) Discussion

[–] evabba 18 years ago

This is a post I posted months ago. I hope it answers your question.

Regards.

There seems to be some kind of confusion as to who Che really was in EVITA.

In the stage musical, he was in fact Che Geuvara, that famous Argentinian revolutionary who became Castro's sidekick. Yes, it's true that Eva Peron and Che NEVER met but the makers of the musical used him symbolically. At the end of the stage play Che closes by saying"

"Money was raised to build a tomb, a monument to Evita. Only the pedestal was completed and Evita's body disappeared for 17 years".

The real Che would not have known this since he died in 1967 and the where- abouts of Evita's body were not known until the early 70's. This also illustrated to his symbolic presence. Here you have an iconic and legendary Latin American political leader telling the story of another one. It is also known that Che Guevara was an Anti-Peronist and therefore they used his character as a cynical anti-peronista criticizing Eva and her husbands regime yet at time he is also sympathetic towards Eva. At the end of the stage play after Eva dies and the embalmers move in to preserve her mortal remains and Che speaks the lines I noted above, Juan Peron comes face to face with Che and they both look at each other. They both looked scared for some reason. I remember Juan raising his hand and placing it infront of his face as if trying to block the image of Che's face. Then they both ran off stage in 2 different direction. I don't know what this last scene was suppose to symbolize but it was effective.

In the film, Che is not the famous Guevara. But just an ordinary man with opposing views narrating the story. The character is called Che simply because in Argentina "Che" is a commonly used slang. In Alan Parker's book "The Making Of Evita" he explains why they decided to change the character. In short, what works on stage would not have worked on film.

So in closing, Che in the stage musical is the iconic Che Guevara and in the film he is not.

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[–] true-covenant 18 years ago

The character Che was originally created to be an Everyman - kind of like the Narrator in Joseph. However, Harold Prince (who directed the original stage performance of Evita in London) insisted that the Che character be identifiable as Che Guevara.

It is true that Eva and Guevara never actually met in real life. However, since Guevara was strongly opposed to Péron's reign, and since his face his so famous among teenagers, Prince turned him into the narrator/commentator of the story.

Personally, I think this makes the show a heck of alot cooler, and I am quite disappointed that the Che in the movie was simply an Everyman

"You alone can make my song take flight"

- The Phantom of the Opera

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[–] JEGV 18 years ago

Che means Guy in argentinian slang

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[–] Razzbar 18 years ago

... guy, buddy, dude, fella...

Misleading to those unfamilar with Argentine culture. It was even worse in the promotions of the stage play that aired on tv in the LA area in 81, where 'Che' -looked- like Che Guevara in the famous poster. When I saw the tv ads, I went "whaaaaat???", and when I saw the movie, I was really eager to see what role Che Guevara had in it. It took a while.

But it's a good name for the character as he's used in the story, indeed.

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[–] Lyon72 18 years ago

That's not exactly true...
Che means nothing... it's just an interjection... its main use is to get someone's attention... e.g. "Che, vos" means "Hey, you".

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[–] veru_pepperland 18 years ago

Che doesn´t mean "guy"! It has no translation! is like a "Hey"
We say che to girls and boys... like calling them
Example: you can say to your girlfriend: "Che! atendé el teléfono!" (hey! answer the phone for me!)

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[–] onewringgold 18 years ago

Che doesn´t mean "guy"! It has no translation! is like a "Hey"

Actually, I read in "Motorcycle Diaries", which is about Ernesto "Che" Guevara that he was called "Che" because he is from Argentina. He was called this by Chileans and other South Americans not from Argentina. It's kind of like people from the southern United States calling northerners "yankees".

Jenn

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[–] veru_pepperland 17 years ago

Actually, I read in "Motorcycle Diaries", which is about Ernesto "Che" Guevara that he was called "Che" because he is from Argentina. He was called this by Chileans and other South Americans not from Argentina. It's kind of like people from the southern United States calling northerners "yankees".

Jenn

Yes, exactly!!! We, the argentinians, are identified by two words "Che" and "Boludo/a".

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[–] marvelass 10 years ago

Actually, I read in "Motorcycle Diaries", which is about Ernesto "Che" Guevara that he was called "Che" because he is from Argentina. He was called this by Chileans and other South Americans not from Argentina. It's kind of like people from the southern United States calling northerners "yankees".

Yes, his Cuban compadres nicknamed him "El Che" because of his penchant for overusing this Argentine interjection. It would be akin to calling an Englishman "Blimey."

.

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[–] foursteel 16 years ago

Hahahaha, che, leé mi mensaje! Please, read this post.
I heard that "che" means "people" in an aboriginal Southamerican language (quechua?), but also in Valencia, Spain, people use this "che" all the time and hence it is called "ciudad che" (che city).

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[–] kennethpitchford 14 years ago

The buzz about dropping Che Guevara as a reference in rhe movie is silly. They dropped any reference to the Argentinian revolutionary because he considered himself an enemy of the United States and of Peron. The anonymizing of the character was strictly a business proposition to sanitize the movie of any "dangerous" ideas. And they succeeded. Neither Evita nor her husband end up standing for anything, although Evita is shown truly as a celebratory for being a celebrity, not unlike Madonna, one might say. The musical itself is mildly interesting for its lyrics, but the tuneful "Don't Cry for Me, Argentina" ends up being robbed of its dramatic impact because it doesn't fit the occasion either at the begininng or the end of the film. The rest of the tunes are forgettable - and as a critique of power politics in the mid-20th-century, it might have been powerful, but results in being only pathetic. Brecht and Weill, who wrote the Three-Penny Opera, could have made a masterpiece of this material. Instead, Webber and Rice color it all with crayons.

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[–] marvelass 10 years ago

The character Che was originally created to be an Everyman - kind of like the Narrator in Joseph. However, Harold Prince (who directed the original stage performance of Evita in London) insisted that the Che character be identifiable as Che Guevara.

Explain how these lyrics Che sings on the concept album (from the early version of "The Lady's Got Potential") can be considered the plight of an Everyman:

"But Eva's not the only one who's getting the breaks;
I'm a research chemist who's got what it takes,
And my insecticide's gonna be a bestseller.

Yeah, just one blast and the insects fall like flies
Kapow! Die! They don't have a chance!
In the fly-killing world it's a major advance!
In my world it'll mean finance:
I'm shaping up successful capital-S-wise!...

Now my insecticide contains no dangerous drugs.
It can't harm humans, but it's curtains for bugs.
If you've got six legs, I ain't doin' you no favor."

Vendaval was an insecticide Ernesto "Che" Guevara unsuccessfully tried to market as a roach killer as a young man before he turned revolutionary.

Also from the concept album, the song "Dangerous Jade" (which was retitled "Peron's Latest Flame" when it was staged) features this extended bit by Che:

(producing his fly-spray again)
To see an underdog succeed
Is the encouragement I need
Opportunity is back!
If she can make it by her efforts in the sack
Then a man who offers more --
Me! Will have the world beat a pathway to his door

The character was supposed to be Guevara all along, and he was always portrayed as such in subsequent productions. The movie was the first time that Che was ever portrayed as an Everyman, and now everyone assumes he originally was. It doesn't help that the recent London and Broadway revivals ditched the whole Che conceit and followed the movie's example.

.

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[–] Directrix_M 18 years ago

"Money was raised to build a tomb, a monument to Evita. Only the pedestal was completed and Evita's body disappeared for 17 years".

The real Che would not have known this since he died in 1967 and the where- abouts of Evita's body were not known until the early 70's.

I didn't know of this, what exactly happened?

Code 77 for beginners: http://youtube.com/watch?v=cJ2_avaK_W4

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[–] ddo-2 17 years ago

Che wasnt anti peronist...
he was a neutral
His family was antiperonist
FYI

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[–] a_chloris 18 years ago

To add to what others have posted, in the lyrics to "Oh, What a Circus" in the stage version, Che sings that he is "Just a man who grew and saw, from seventeen to twenty-four, his country bled, crucified. . . ." Che Guevara was 17 when the Perons came into power and 24 when Eva died.

Alan Parker has expressed his opinion that to identify Che specifically as Guevara in the movie would have been distracting, and also that the historical figure of Guevara deserved to have a film of his own.

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[–] curstkate 17 years ago

So, he's not explicitly defined as Che Guevara, but (I said this on a different thread) when the credit's rolled and I saw the name Che it made sense to me that it was Che Guevara. After all, it wasn't until much later in his life that he wore the beret with the star, and became the iconic image we recognize today. It also adds a deeper sub-plot to the film.

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[–] HenryCW 18 years ago

Che in the movie is some kind of Everyman, as one poster had already pointed out. I just want to add that Che - or rather the character played by Antonio Banderas - may or may not be the same person in various parts of the movie. The character appeared to take on different roles at various times: he was seen as a servant, a bartender, a revolutionary, a visitor at Eva's funeral and so on. Sometimes he seemed to show admiration or sympathy towards Eva, but elsewhere he appeared as a demonstrator in the street. So I think he is not really a single character, but rather some kind of composite character, meant to represent various ordinary people who might have met and formed views about Eva Peron. I think the point is that we may never know what the real Eva Peron was like, but it was through the perceptions of these people who had seen or met her at various times that legends about her were made.

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[–] greenbean937 18 years ago

I think that Che is meant to be a sort of "everyman," even in the play. I'm looking at the libretto for the stage play right now, and there's no mention of him being Che Guevara. I think the point was that he was meant to be representative of Guevara, but the audience had to make that conclusion on their own.

Also, to shed some more light on the "everyman" scenario, the word "che" is also a slang name for an Argentinian. So calling the character "Che" may mean that he's just another Argentinian.

Too late for turning back. Too late for prayers and useless pity!

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[–] Hakuna_Matata27 17 years ago

I think Che is meant to represent a stereotypical opinion on Eva. So he may represent one group of Argentinians that was opposed to Eva and what she did, ie. manipulativeness

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] marvelass 10 years ago

I'm looking at the libretto for the stage play right now, and there's no mention of him being Che Guevara.

The synopsis for the show -- which was found in the booklet of the Broadway cast recording and inside the playbill -- clearly stated:

Che in Evita is at times a narrator, at times an observer, at times simply a device that enables the authors to place Eva in a situation where she is confronted with direct, personal criticism. There is no evidence whatsoever that Che Guevara ever met Eva Peron or became in any way involved with her, but the character Che in Evita is based upon this legendary revolutionary. He was, however, an Argentine born in 1928 and would therefore have been seventeen when the Perons came to power and twenty-four when Eva died. He became strongly opposed to the Peronist regime during Eva's lifetime, and it is not unreasonable to suppose that his later activity in Cuba and elsewhere was in part a reaction against the government he had known in his youth.

Also, in "Oh What a Circus," Che rants:

Who am I who dares to keep
His head held high while millions weep?
Why the exception to the rule?
Opportunist? Traitor? Fool?

Or just a man who grew and saw
From seventeen to twenty-four
His country bled, crucified?
She's not the only one who's died!

.

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[–] ember_firedrake 18 years ago

I just saw him as a sometimes-cynical omniscient third person.

--
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
SIPTEA

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] death_cube_k 18 years ago

as dumb as this sounds...in the original evita, before it was a stage production, the original vinal album of evita, had a sub plot where Che invented insectiside. the original 'the ladies got potential' he sings about his insectiside, and in 'dangerous jade' he mentiones it again. this is in the 1976 album made by mca records. so i have always been interested as to why exactly did they originally have that sub plot? it seems kind of useless, and dosent really go with the play.

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[–] Tabu_girl 18 years ago

as dumb as this sounds...in the original evita, before it was a stage production, the original vinal album of evita, had a sub plot where Che invented insectiside. the original 'the ladies got potential' he sings about his insectiside, and in 'dangerous jade' he mentiones it again. this is in the 1976 album made by mca records. so i have always been interested as to why exactly did they originally have that sub plot? it seems kind of useless, and dosent really go with the play.

If I'm not mistaken, it's because the real Che Guevara did in fact invent some type of insecticde when he was in school. I remember reading that they took that sub-plot from actual records.

I'm not an expert on Che but I'm pretty sure that's the reason. The idea was dropped when the show transferred to stage.

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[–] death_cube_k 18 years ago

ok, cool. thanks for clearning that up for me. i now have another quesiton...not necessaraly about che but the musical in general, and that is the vinals i have of evita, the first one in 76 is the only one that has 'the ladies got potential' on it. did they only rewrite it and have it as part of the movie? or did they rewrite it a while ago, for the play. because i have vinals of the original, the london, and the new york evita...all of which are from the 70's. and then i have a quick question about londons..did they ever release a full album of londons show? because the one i have only has 15 songs on it..and there is a really huge gap in there, and alot of songs arent on it. i have always wondered if a full version of this show exists.

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[–] true-covenant 18 years ago

Due to the sub-plot that "The Lady's Got Potential" contained involving Guevara's insecticide, the song was cut from the later versions of the show and replaced with "The Art of the Possible".

For the movie, however, they decided to include an edited version of "THe Lady's Got Potential", as well as a small verse from "The Art of the Possible"

"You alone can make my song take flight"

- The Phantom of the Opera

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[–] MissMimiH 18 years ago

see i always thought that mabye Che was Eva's male counterpart, b/c he was always there and ususally stated the view opposing Eva....but i guess i was wrong...lol
xox-nickii

*Your Terrible Secret Revealed...You're A Man After All*
{.A.Proud.Joaquinian.}

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] saltandpepper66 18 years ago

It was actually Rice's idea from the beginning to have Che be Guevera but Prince asked for a verse that makes it clearer, which became the "But who am I/who dares to keep..." part. It's a great idea to have communist Che conflict with self-serving Eva....for the film, it may have been a bit much and deosn't really lose much to the meaning of the show to have it be an Everyman

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[–] Mikurtis 18 years ago

Joel Schumacker would have left Che as Che Guevara.

Ken Russell would have done the same...

it's a musical, not a docudrama. I loved this movie when it came out (and still like it very much) but I think Alan Parker made a mistake here... it would have been a nice surreal touch.

Though I can only imagine what the likes of Ken Russell would have doen with the film... and, yes, he was attached to the project at one point

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[–] laurence01 18 years ago

I saw a stage tour in england in the 1980's and che was very much as he is inthe film. The costume they gave him was a white suit which he used as narater. Whenever he interacted with other cast members he simply put a hat on to match whatever he was suposed to be at the time. It worked really well.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] laurence01 18 years ago

Might be the one I saw. It was Late 80's in brighton.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] jschillig 12 years ago

I think there's some ambiguity on whether Lloyd Webber and Rice always intended Che to be Guevara. They now claim that they'd always intended Che to be an everyman, that it was Hal Prince's idea that he be Guevara.

That's somewhat supported by the fact that the "from seventeen to twenty-four" verses weren't in the concept album or London versions (going by the published script, which was of the London version). That suggests that LW/R wrote that for the Broadway production to clarify that this was, in fact, Ernesto Guevara.

Plus, even in the versions where he is meant to be Guevara, he also fulfills the "everyman" role to an extent, popping up in various roles from a bartender to the announcer at the charity concert to an official in Peron's employ commenting on the Rainbow Tour.

But there's also that (dumb stupid IDIOTIC) insecticide subplot on the concept album. That may be meant to parallel some work Guevara did with insecticides in his youth...which would mean that they DID plan for Che to be Che Guevara, or at least partially based on him, from the beginning.

So...are Lloyd Webber and Rice telling the truth when they say that the whole thing was Hal Prince's idea? Or are they backpedaling now that some very disturbing facts about Guevara have come to light...so disturbing that they might not want their musical associated with him?

As for me, I like the show either way. I also kind of like the idea that Che is Eva's conscience. In one staging I saw, Eva was sitting at her vanity during "High Flying, Adored", and Che was standing on the other side of the vanity table where her mirror would be, singing to her, "What happens now, where do you go from here?...A shame you did it all at twenty-six..." It was as if he were echoing her inner doubts. Well done!

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[–] mazziej 17 years ago

********************************************************************************************************************
Ok, kind of off the subject, I don't know if anyone else has said this but Matt Rawle who plays Che in the West End is frikin' FIT!!!! OMG I went to see it with my perants and I was just like in my head 'OH, God, look at that fit guy!!!' :O
And his voice, LOVE HIM!!
Anyway someone reply, does anyone agree?
********************************************************************************************************************

...It'sJustLife...SoKeepDancingThrough...

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[–] XxblackrainbowsxX 15 years ago

I saw the UK tour production the other day (with Seamus Cullen as Che) and rewatched the movie again today. In the stage version that I saw, the actor wore the distinctive beret and coat etc, and it was mentioned in the programme that Cullen had said that he was 'delighted to play Che Guevara' and had jokingly drawn parallels between himself and the character. So yes, it does seem that in the stage version this side of the character is much more prominent (although he still plays the 'Everyman' role) whereas in the film it is pretty much left to the audience to determine who 'Che' actually is. :)

"I'm actually 40% papier mache"
-------Morrissey

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[–] 15 years ago

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[–] 15 years ago

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[–] marktayloruk (2378) 3 years ago

Just remember Guevara was a far worse oppressor than Evita in every way.

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